My apologies if this has already been addressed ...
But what if you are a WoHS/Mystic. Or a Cleric/Sorcerer. Would your patron deity have a problem with your "other half"? There doesn't appear to be anything in the Dragonlance Campaign book prohibiting this kind of multiclassing, but is there a philosophical conflict that would make the combination untenable?
Now a cleric/sorc would be an interesting combo. I would like to see how the character justified his faith in god, when his power came from the earth itself...
Originally posted by talinthas
wizards are generally frowned on when it comes to multiclassing with anything but accepted PrCs. I don't think that their dedication to the art would allow it.
Now a cleric/sorc would be an interesting combo. I would like to see how the character justified his faith in god, when his power came from the earth itself...
What if the Cleric/Sorcerer believes his power is granted by his deity and thus only uses it to follow the precepts of his deity. This would be in the same vein as someone who is naturally talented in say, weaponsmithing, but only makes weapons for causes that are in keeping with his god's teachings.
As for the multiclassing wizard ... what about Gilthanas? He was described as a dabbler in the magic arts, but he must have also had levels of fighter or ranger due to his relative decency in the weaponly arts. So long as a wizard passes the Test of High Sorcery, what does the Conclave care that you decide to train with some swords? Yes, I know that Wizards of High Sorcery generally limit themselves to daggers and staffs ... but that seemed to be more of a traditional thing, then an actual Law of the Conclave.
This is something that I always wondered about the DL setting, if the magic is handed down by the Gods of Krynn, then wouldn't it be considered Divine in Nature? I mean Bozaks were wizards (now sorcerors) and they prayed for spells in the novels.
Arandur
Originally posted by talinthas
You said it yourself. Gil was a dabbler. Chron. says he passed the test, but i prefer to think that he only had a level or two of wiz, with the rest in ftr.
Annotated Chronicles suggests he didn't pass the test, hence his dabbler label.
Cheers,
Cam
Arandur
A Druid/Sorcerer would make a lot of sense. The Druid already has a fair amount of access to elemental magicks (like flame strike, ice storm, call lightning, flaming sphere, wall of fire, etc.), why not supplement that with a sorcerer that selects spells like burning hands, fireball, fire shield, chain lightning, meteor swarm, etc.)
You'd be the ultimate nature-loving/hating (depending on alignment) shapechanging woodsy pyromaniac. :D
I'll start with the WoHS/Mystic question as I think that one is easier.
The Wizard of High Sorcery is completely dedicated to his art. They may approach the art differently (i.e. specialist or generalist, various prestige classes, etc.), but they are all dedicated nonetheless.
IMO, this dedication rivals that of the paladin or monk. With this in mind, I would put similar multi-classing restrictions on the WoHS as the paladin and monk.
Add into that how a WoHS must look outward to the gods and magic, while a mystic looks inward. I just don't see this combo.
Now, the cleric/sorcerer question is a bit different, and much of it is dependent on the particular god in question.
Let's take Branchala for example. Branchala is the primary god of bards. Bards use primal sorcery for their magic, the same magic as sorcerers. I cannot imagine that the Bard King would prohibit his followers from multi-classing as bards.
Similarly, clerics of Reorx or Sirrion may have sorcerer levels, so long as they studied geomancy or pryomancy (respectfully) at Palin Majere's Academy of Sorcery.
At the same time, some clerics would be expected to have total dedication to their deity. Sargonnas and Takhisis would want total dedication (or else!). Majere may say that one has to be focused to achieve greater enlightenment.
My general rule-of-thumb with divine spellcasters and multi-classing is that it's okay to multi-class with classes that further the cause of the deity.
Hope that helps! Great topic, btw.
My general rule-of-thumb with divine spellcasters and multi-classing is that it's okay to multi-class with classes that further the cause of the deity.
Exactly! That's why I figured the Cleric (or Druid)/Sorcerer would be a good combo so long as it jived with the god's credo. Hmm, I don't think I've ever encountered a Cleric/Bard before ... I'll have to create just such a character for fun. :D
Arandur
Personally I find a lot of players like the class. I guess if it works for your campaign then go with it.
I think the elves know the Wizards of High Sorcery well enough to entrust such a tome to them. They might make a big deal over the fact and their King may whine in a nasily voice, but in the end I think they'd be sure in knowing the Order wouldn't screw the world over with such a tome. If the WoHS used their knowledge in such a way I think that a lot of countries would have an issue with them. I think I see the WoHS as a group who do just as much protecting others from magic as they do studying it, but that is just my interpretation.
Arandur
Heck, if a sailor can rise to the head of the white robes (Dunbar Mastermate) then its clearly possible to split your loyalties where the WoHS are concerned. The gods (or anyone else) aren't going to come down and spank you. You might never lead the conclave, but you can certainly do it.
Originally posted by Halabis
I think you guys all put too much emphasis on the dedication it takes to be a WoHS. There have been tons of wizards who's dedication to sorcery isnt total. The test is designed to make sure you can responsably use magic, not that you are fanaticly dedicated to the 3 gods of magic. Yeah Kiri-Jolith sponsors the KoS, but every Knight isnt a slavering Kiri-Fan boy.
Heck, if a sailor can rise to the head of the white robes (Dunbar Mastermate) then its clearly possible to split your loyalties where the WoHS are concerned. The gods (or anyone else) aren't going to come down and spank you. You might never lead the conclave, but you can certainly do it.
I don't think the emphasis is overestimated. Dunbar Mastersmate was a sailor at one time, but his dedication to the Orders was pretty significant once he signed up for the long haul.
You can only split your loyalties politically, and even then you run into real trouble. A Wizard of High Sorcery who decided he'd like to join the Legion of Steel can't place any oath or authority above the magic, so if it came to a point where he had to make up his mind, the magic would come first.
Takhisis specifically acquired her own mages (the Thorn Knights) in the years leading up to the Chaos War because she couldn't trust the Black Robes who assisted the dragonarmies to be truly loyal to her. A wizard's first loyalty is to his craft, his brothers in the Order, and the Conclave.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
How about Bladesingers? A bladesinger can easily meet the arcane requirements without having to take the Test of High Sorcery, but once they advance as a Bladesinger they have their own spell list that reaches up to 4th Level spells. Will this make them Renegades? The high standards of loyalty the Wizards of High Sorcery require also conflicts with that class. What is a Bladesinger to do if elves seek to destroy a potent magical tome because they view as evil (and they themselves are not Dark Elves)? The Bladesinger, also a White Robe mage, can’t allow a valuable source of magic to be destroyed but he can’t really hurt the elves either (who are stubborn about putting up a resistance). He can use non-lethal force, but loyalties are bound to split sometime.
Though most may say a bladesinger does not exist, my friend and I sat and brainstormed how this may work for DL. Basically, what we came up with was the basic requirements, stat wise, according to several different referense points (www.hallofhero.com, tome and blood, and the repair to Tome and Blood). What we came up with was that the character would be able to qualify as a bladesinger once they have obtained a fighter class of level 3 and Sorcerer of lvl 3 (you can also use wizard if you wish). We decided on sorcerer to avoid the whole Test of the Tower mess, and that gives you the magical freedoms needed.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I don't think the emphasis is overestimated. Dunbar Mastersmate was a sailor at one time, but his dedication to the Orders was pretty significant once he signed up for the long haul.
You can only split your loyalties politically, and even then you run into real trouble.
Correct, but character classes dont reflect political beliefs, they represent what political parties you belong to. Just because you no longer hold the oath to the order as the foremost oath in your mind doesnt mean that the wizards kick you out. First they would have to discover your flagging dedication. And chances are the first time any given wizard saw it they would pass it up as a fluke. Sure if every time they see you you have a sword in your hands they might sensure you, but they wouldnt kick ya out.
Still you wouldnt loose class levels or anything. Maybe you wouldnt be able to pick up new levels of WoHS, but you could still get new mage levels, and no one would care, or even know. You might have always been that powerfull (and just holding back).
Ok, im rambling, and my spacebar isnt working to well, so thats enough for now.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I think that you'll find that the sorcerer and mystic are great options when you want to play something that just won't work with the WoHS or the Holy Orders of the Stars. There's more freedom there to develop a character.
Sorcerers are so cool. I love them, mostly for the familiar. There is an interesting question. What would you do if you were Qualinesti or Silvanesti and a high level Sorcerer, would that mean that you could have a Griffon as a familiar?
currently, in my campaign, the party sorceror has a dragon warrior slime named smuckers as a familiar. its hella cool =)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
A griffon would undoubtedly be too powerful for a familiar, but it may fit the role of a mount for the windrider prestige class in Masters of the Wild. As it turns out, there's a windrider role for elven society as well (griffon-riders), so this works out nicely.
Well, my whole idea being based around the favored mounts of the Qualinesti being Griffons. I wouldn't think them to powerful, if you limit the level they can abtain them to something like 12th or 13th level sorcerer. Afterall, the supliment book (name slips my mind) that has sorcerer stuff in it has a dire elephant for 11th level sorcerers.
For example, take a cleric of Paladine/Wizard of High Sorcery. He serves two gods, Solinari and Paladine. He spends his days researching spells, teaching magic, healing who needs to be healed, and generally strengthening his small community he lives in. He is still dedicated heart and soul to the ideals that both gods beleive in, and do their work.
However, let's say that he lives in the time of the Kingpreist. Now he has to choose, now he has to choose whether the church or the conclave comes first. I'll however leave that up to him, rather than deciding for him with a straight ban.
Personally, I think reconcilling the responsibilities and duties of one world with another makes for a very complex and interesting character. If I am forced to choose between the Knights of Solamnia (my barracks mates) and the conclave (my peers) what a great story. I may have to choose to never go home again, or choose to defy the magic I love and become a renegade.
This is the same choice that Palin may have had to make due to his father's stubborness. He would have made his choice, and it would have broken his heart. Very poetic, and very easy to spring on you in the middle of your career, as well as the beginning.
Also Ferratus, wouldn't that be kind of like worshipping two religions? I thought it was a question of Faith also. Would a Cleric who had other responsibilities place his faith first? And by the same token would the WoHS allow someone in their Order who wasn't fully behind the Tower and had other priorities?
Arandur
Originally posted by Arandur
Okay I was thinking about the Bladesinger and I came to the conclusion that a Bladesinger would be pretty restricted by the weapon restriction of the Order. Daggers (and staves) only I believe it was.
Arandur
From what I understand, the animal symbol also indicates the weapon used, or something to that effect. So an elven bladesinger with a snake would use a whip, while the tiger (or is it lion) uses a longsword, a bear indicates an axe, etc. I think that is where the restriction should lie, especially since you need to have some fighter skills in you (or rouge, or something).
Arandur
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
To many restrictions.
Actually, it's more about staying "true" to the heart of the setting than putting restrictions into place just "because."
Yeah, originally, all the "restrictions" were designed because of 1st edition restrictions on races and classes. But, the Dragonlance setting incorporated those restrictions and made them a distinct part of the setting.
Unlike the Forgotten Realms, this flavor has not been abandoned just because a brand new set of rules has come out.
But, it's all a matter of taste. If you don't want these "restrictions" in your game, if you don't wanna use them as the basis for roleplaying or for the setting, then you don't have to use them.
Christopher
Arandur
Originally posted by ferratus
Can I be a catholic and president of the United States? ;)
Technically the answer is no since you're from Canada. ;)
If I'm reading your analogy right, you're saying it's okay to be a cleric/wizard as your faith is placed in one god, and the WoHS is an organization, correct?
I think a more accurate analogy would be, "Can I be a church pastor and president of the United States?"
(This all depends on the church, of course.)
Your stereotypical church pastor is a full-time pastor, who works through the church 7 days a week. He must be available to administer to the sick, work with prison ministries, youth programs, etc. etc. Meanwhile, the president is also busy 7 days a week, and must be available for diplomatic functions, work to enforce the laws, deal with national security, etc. etc.
The gods in Dragonlance require their clerics to be dedicated. To multi-class isn't forbidden, but one should consider that their secondary class should be supportive of the ways of the deity.
Meanwhile, the gods of magic require that the WoHS be dedicated to the magic.
Basically, you cannot multi-class in such a way that you gain power from more than one god, even if their ideals are similar. You cannot be a cleric of Kiri-Jolith while being a druid of Habbakuk. Therefore, you also cannot be a cleric of Paladine and a wizard of Solinari.
A couple of points I wanted to make to wrap this up.
1. I know it seems odd having restrictions in a game system that's all about free multi-classing. However, sometimes you can help define a game world by those restrictions. The WoHS wouldn't be nearly as cool without their full dedication to their magic. And so on and so forth.
2. Always remember that the DLCS, like any rulebook, is a guideline. It isn't a required edict. (Love Guardians of Order's Gaming Manifesto). As such, gauge for yourself what works in your games. If you feel that WoHS can multi-class freely, then go for it. Always remember, gaming should be fun.
Arandur - Forgot about that PrC. Thanks for mentioning it.
Originally posted by Arandur
Kalanth, Baron asked about Bladesingers and their involvement with the WoHS. That's what is meant by the weapon restrictions (dagger & staff) I mentioned, not the fighting style (which is what I presume you are referring to) of Lion or Snake and the like...
Arandur
Yeah, I guess I just missed that.
Originally posted by Arandur
Kalanth, Baron asked about Bladesingers and their involvement with the WoHS. That's what is meant by the weapon restrictions (dagger & staff) I mentioned, not the fighting style (which is what I presume you are referring to) of Lion or Snake and the like...
Arandur
Yeah, I guess I just missed that.
Originally posted by Arandur
Kalanth, Baron asked about Bladesingers and their involvement with the WoHS. That's what is meant by the weapon restrictions (dagger & staff) I mentioned, not the fighting style (which is what I presume you are referring to) of Lion or Snake and the like...
Arandur
Yeah, I guess I just missed that.
Originally posted by L33t Angel
WoHS has always been secular. The Three gods are very important to the higher ups of the Conclave but some of the younger wizards may nly pay some reverence to the fact that the moons gave them power. The WoHS has always been about the magic, not the gods; its just that usually the Gods and the Magic are one and the same.
What?! The WoHS have always been totally devoted to the gods of magic.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Technically the answer is no since you're from Canada. ;)
Eh, Governor Arnold will pave the way for me. ;)
If I'm reading your analogy right, you're saying it's okay to be a cleric/wizard as your faith is placed in one god, and the WoHS is an organization, correct?
Actually my analogy goes like this. If the needs of one group are complementary to another group, then I should be able to be dedicated to the other group with my whole heart as well.
It is only when the groups come into conflict when you have to make choices.
So taking the catholic analogy, you have a catholic president. He is a man of strong principles, which is what governing the ship of state provides. So normally it all goes well.
However, let's say he is required to execute a condemned criminal in the District of Columbia. Now his principles are in conflict as a public servant who must uphold the law and the wishes of his constituents, and his liberal catholic faith which holds that capital punishment is only to be used in the most grave of circumstances, when no other alternatives are possible. Boom badda bing, you have an episode of "The West Wing" on NBC. A rather good one in fact. (He chose the state).
A similar story could work for someone who is a WoHS and a Knight of Solamnia. A white robe could fit just fine in the Solamnic Order, after all, the Solamnic Auxillary Mage proves this. However, if the two organizations come to conflict, who does he choose?
Now, you want to tell me that a magic user will always choose the conclave, the magic. That doesn't make sense though, because we know you can choose to be a renegade. Heck, Marwort, the Master of the Tower of Istar, chose the Kingpreist over the Conclave.
So rather than saying "no", why not say "yes, but suffer the consequences"? You choose X over the conclave you are a renegade. You choose the conclave over X and you are an enemy. It is pretty simple really.
But the higher ups they have little choice but to revere the deities. The gods have the ears of the Heads of the Orders and their apprentices, they communicate ideals and wishes to these agents, not for worship, but to help the cause of magic!
Originally posted by ferratus
A similar story could work for someone who is a WoHS and a Knight of Solamnia. A white robe could fit just fine in the Solamnic Order, after all, the Solamnic Auxillary Mage proves this. However, if the two organizations come to conflict, who does he choose?
Hey, you've read my story notes! lol
Truth be told, this is the foundation for a story I have in mind, save with some really cool twists to keep you hopping. Even I don't have a definitive answer at this point.
Maybe I'll write it up someday.
Now, you want to tell me that a magic user will always choose the conclave, the magic. That doesn't make sense though, because we know you can choose to be a renegade. Heck, Marwort, the Master of the Tower of Istar, chose the Kingpreist over the Conclave.
Ah, now this is a different tale. Most wizards will be WoHS, and they are the ones that I don't think should multi-class with clerics.
Now, a cleric/renegade mage is another matter. I could see that combo, although there would be some definite repercussions.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Ah, now this is a different tale. Most wizards will be WoHS, and they are the ones that I don't think should multi-class with clerics.
Now, a cleric/renegade mage is another matter. I could see that combo, although there would be some definite repercussions.
Ah, but what are the repurcussions? For example, a cleric of Chemosh/renegade wizard probably can be found. I bet Chemosh has always been jealous of Nuitari's command over wizardly necromancy. I bet Chemosh would like to take over dark magic for himself.
Heck, I bet that you can find a Cleric of Chemosh as an agent in the Orders of High Sorcery, buried within and tempting black robed mages to take lichdom, and feed on their young apprentices.
I think that Cleric of Chemosh would die, be a renegade, and definately have repercussions. Nobody would tolerate a cleric of Chemosh in the ranks. A cleric of Hiddukel, or Sargonnas (particularly if they are currently at war with the Knights of the Thorn) well maybe.
But take a cleric of Mishakal crossed with a wizard of Solinari. That doesn't seem to really have a conflict at all. Solinari is all about doing good and using your magic to do good. The goals of Solinari and his mother are complimentary.
Or what about a monk and a wizard of High Sorcery? Can a wizard not study magic in monastic seclusion along with his monastic disciplines, just as a wizard could devote his time to also being devoted to raising a family?
See, the restriction has to make sense, and in this case it really doesn't. You can talk about "flavour" all you want, but unless the flavour has a purpose, and helps to support a story, it really isn't flavour at all. If I was to sit down and write a story or adventure, I have to write these people as living breathing characters. If one can logically dedicate your whole heart and soul to two groups and two causes... well they certainly can.
Unless of course you want to make all clerics and all wizards celibate cenobites of course, with no goals and ideals at all rather than just "the magic". That of course, is not true. Wizards can be dedicated to war, dedicated to their families, dedicated to their nations, dedicated to their king, dedicated to their faith.
That is my argument as to why the restrictions on multiclassing for either clerics or mages as a bold rule, (rather than a story-based exception) is a bad idea.
Isn't that what the three Orders of the Knights of Solamnia do?
Back before the Chaos War, the Order of the Crown was devoted to Habbakuk, the Order of the Sword to Kiri-Jolith and the Order of the Rose to Paladine. This due to these three gods having supported the founding of the knighthood.
Now in the DLCS in order to become a Rose Knight, you've got to have levels in both Crown and Sword. So if you are a Solamnic Knight of the Order of the Rose from, say, just after the War of the Lance, you are a member of three prestige classes whose powers are granted by three different deities. Would you not have to stay true to the tenets of all three gods to maintain the powers granted by all three orders?
If such double (or in this case triple dipping) is possible, perhaps that would justify a WoHS/Cleric combo. Or you could just go with the option of allowing clergies for the three magic deities. ;)