Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Aug 28, 2003 19:15:33	People have mentioned a couple of times on these boards the restriction of Wizards of High Sorcery to weapons such as staves and daggers. Does this restriction still stand in the new incarnation of the Dragonlance setting? I always saw the restriction as a means of rationalizing, in the novels, the limited weapon selection of the 1st / 2nd ed mage class, which of course is no longer an issue in 3rd ed. I can see how certain conservative human nations such as Solamnia and Ergoth might have laws regulating the weapons a wizard may carry, but at the very least I would expect the Orders to permit Qualinesti and Silvanesti fighter / wizard types to wield rapier, longword and bow for cultural reasons. The elves have always tended to mix magic and swordcraft after all. Also, IIRC Highlord Ariakas was both a warrior and a Black Robe wizard, definitely wielded a sword, and was never declared a renegade by the Conclave. In fact he had other Black Robes working for him! I can see the carrying of martial weapons as being a matter for the Conclave's disaproval, and even perhaps a minor procedural infraction against the rules of the Orders, but it would not be grounds for declaring a mage renegade / expelling them from the Order. Any thoughts?
#2 zombiegleemax Aug 28, 2003 19:25:01	I think to carry no weapons is a kind of honor thing. "Tradition forbids them from using any weapon except quarterstaff and dagger". But when a great lord comes and carries a sword no one would stand in his way to say: "hey guy, you are not allowed to use a sword!"
#3 zombiegleemax Aug 28, 2003 20:04:08	I always believed carrying the staff was part of the code set by the WoHS when the three gods (Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari) first imparted 'wizardly' sorcery. I think it was show the dedication to one's pursuit of magic and probably in some way to pay homage to the gods (who have no clergy). The carrying of the dagger, I believe, was intorduced into the order after the death of Magius to honor his sacrifice or something. As for Highlord Ariakas, I can't recall if he was a Black robed Wizard or not, perhaps at some stage he was, but I doubt he was considered part of the Order after his ascension to the General of The Dark Queens armies. To be honest I'm not sure that Tahkisis would have even allowed him to pay even some form of lip-service to Nuitari. She probably granted him his spells in a similar fashion to her Thorn Knights and also her draconian followers (who also pray to her for spells). Arandur
#4 zombiegleemax Aug 28, 2003 21:45:40	I can't remember the exact details, but in Dragons of Spring Dawning the text describes Ariakas as one who had risen to great power in the Black Robes, then turned to the chief love of his life, war. In the 1st edition game mechanics of the time, he had dual-classed from wizard to fighter. I'm pretty sure that he was still technically a Black Robe, though - at least in so far as the senior Black Robes of the time were to cowed by the might of the Dragonarmies to run the risk of openly expelling him. As for whether it was possible for Ariakas to continue paying lip service to Nuitari while serving the Dark Queen - remember that the many Black Robe wizards serving in the Dragonarmies were doing exactly that. Although they still might have looked to Nuitari for spiritual guidance, they obeyed the very real temporal authority of Takhisis and lusted after the prospect of wealth, power, and conquest she offered - just as Ariakas probably did. As for the issue of wizards' staves and daggers, I'm fully aware of the justifications given in the novels ( staff as symbol of the moon gods, dagger to honour Magius's sacrifice ). But they were in the end simply a means of accomodating, in-story, the inability of 1st and second ed mages to wield swords, bows, and the like. Now we have 3.5 ed, in which wizards can potentially learn to wield any weapon they wish to. The new DLCS is meant to be broadly compatible with 3.5 core rules, so it seems to me that the traditional weapon restrictions should be toned down. Staff and dagger are of course still be the preferred symbolic weapons of High Sorcery, but carrying and using a sword as a Wizard should be regarded more as a breach of etiquette rather than a fundamental defiance of the Laws of Magic. A sword-wielding fighter / wizard will probably set the grey-beards in the Conclave muttering about lack of respect for the arcane traditions, and he'll probably never be elected head of the Order, but I doubt if he'd be declared a renegade or denied access to the Towers. That's my ten cents worth anyway...
#5 ferratus Aug 28, 2003 23:17:57	In the DLCS, it says that using weapons other than dagger and staff is a matter of tradition only. Basically, you're looking at the fact that if you go to a meeting of fellow wizards, some will probably look with annoyance, particularly the old guy with the belt of his robes hitched up to his shoulders. He'll probably go into a big long rant about how "not using martial weapons is important to the "total dedication" of magic and such. But, you're young, you're hip, you're just as powerful as he is (since he was just a young punk during the Summer of Chaos) and you're the future.
#6 akumadaimyo Aug 29, 2003 0:22:15	Yeah but you had to waste a feat to use that sword or take a level of fighter to do so so acutally hes still the more powerfull mage so nah.
#7 ferratus Aug 29, 2003 0:26:22	Well true, probably the reason he gets to cluck at you disapprovingly in the first place. He's still an old fart though. ;) Hmm... I seem to be on fire. Excuse me a moment...
#8 morgion-s_claw Aug 29, 2003 8:00:28	My assembled ramblings: 1. Elven Fighter/Mages I think those wouldn't climb high in the Orders. Not for merely breaking with traditions, but mostly because of their lack of dedication. Even in elven lands there would be problems: You can't be member of the House Protector and House Mystic at the same time. One day you'll have to decide. And someone who is not willing to forsake his life as a fighter will have a hard time to find a tutor or sponsor of the arcane arts. As I understood it, most elven nobles receive a general education within all fields of martial, magical and aesthetic arts, but at some point they pick up a specific way of life in a given House (or continue in the politics) 2. Draconian sorcerers The mention of them praying to Tak for their spells gave me the following idea: What if they don't use the primordial power of Krynn (like their dragon "parents") but inherited nothing but the innate magical abilities. With their creation by foul magic with divine intervention (be it a merging with demon souls or not) it could be that the true source they are tapping in are abyssical energies from their goddess plan (or just: negative energies of some evil semi-plane around Krynn) Even with the "departure" of the gods this plane could be still accessible not any longer controlled by Tak (and with the War of Souls the explication gets all the easier). 3. I'm a fan of flavouring restrictions "May the plague catch you all!" - Ancient Blessing of the Church of Morgion *lol*
#9 kalanth Aug 29, 2003 8:06:00	It is true that the staff and dagger are for traditional purposes only. Changing the weapon is no big, and loosing a feat is not that bad. Considering that mages get meta magic bonus feats now, they can regain some of them quickly. My major black mage NPC uses a Kama, and I just used some feats to get the ability. Course I just did it to get the trip attack of the Kama, thinking that it would be beneficial when the enemy got to close. I also have quick draw on the character for the same reason. Keep the weapon sheethed until you need it.
#10 morgion-s_claw Aug 29, 2003 8:50:08	*silly mode on* Hihi! You see? A truly fanatic mage would NEVER pass the chance to improve his magical power! Get a grip with a sword or get my spells infused with more power...not really a choice! I can always ensorcel some mercenaries to do the bloody work for me anyway, even more with my powers increased! *lol* M's Claw, *silly mode off*
#11 kalanth Aug 29, 2003 10:35:00	Of course, take into account that most magical weapons are not actually created. Read through many of the weapons in the old Magic Item books and you will come across several that state they were used by the character for something like 15 - 20 levels, and it became magical along the way. I do this in a sense, by making characters keep track of their actions and kills with weapons and armor, and if the same item is used that long then I embue it with a magical property specific to the character.
#12 banshee Aug 29, 2003 12:15:52	Originally posted by Twilight Herald I can't remember the exact details, but in Dragons of Spring Dawning the text describes Ariakas as one who had risen to great power in the Black Robes, then turned to the chief love of his life, war. In the 1st edition game mechanics of the time, he had dual-classed from wizard to fighter. I'm pretty sure that he was still technically a Black Robe, though - at least in so far as the senior Black Robes of the time were to cowed by the might of the Dragonarmies to run the risk of openly expelling him. As for whether it was possible for Ariakas to continue paying lip service to Nuitari while serving the Dark Queen - remember that the many Black Robe wizards serving in the Dragonarmies were doing exactly that. Although they still might have looked to Nuitari for spiritual guidance, they obeyed the very real temporal authority of Takhisis and lusted after the prospect of wealth, power, and conquest she offered - just as Ariakas probably did. As for the issue of wizards' staves and daggers, I'm fully aware of the justifications given in the novels ( staff as symbol of the moon gods, dagger to honour Magius's sacrifice ). But they were in the end simply a means of accomodating, in-story, the inability of 1st and second ed mages to wield swords, bows, and the like. Now we have 3.5 ed, in which wizards can potentially learn to wield any weapon they wish to. The new DLCS is meant to be broadly compatible with 3.5 core rules, so it seems to me that the traditional weapon restrictions should be toned down. Staff and dagger are of course still be the preferred symbolic weapons of High Sorcery, but carrying and using a sword as a Wizard should be regarded more as a breach of etiquette rather than a fundamental defiance of the Laws of Magic. A sword-wielding fighter / wizard will probably set the grey-beards in the Conclave muttering about lack of respect for the arcane traditions, and he'll probably never be elected head of the Order, but I doubt if he'd be declared a renegade or denied access to the Towers. That's my ten cents worth anyway... IIRC, in the original Dragonlance modules, Ariakis was actually a cleric, not a magic user, though in the novels, he was a wizard. I thought he was something like a lvl 10 fighter, lvl 23 claric, or something to that effect... My DL modules are all packed up so I can't reference them.... Banshee
#13 iltharanos Aug 30, 2003 0:15:22	Originally posted by Banshee IIRC, in the original Dragonlance modules, Ariakis was actually a cleric, not a magic user, though in the novels, he was a wizard. I thought he was something like a lvl 10 fighter, lvl 23 claric, or something to that effect... My DL modules are all packed up so I can't reference them.... Banshee Ariakas is listed in ToTL as a lvl 23 Priest/lvl 10 Fighter, which according to the 2.0 to 3.0 Conversion Guide (Yes, I've still got it), makes Ariakas the equivalent of a 26th level character in 3rd edition.
#14 zombiegleemax Aug 30, 2003 0:33:37	One thing's for sure - after the War of Souls the Order doesn't look to be in any shape for enforcing the traditions, and they could very easily be abandoned or relaxed as the wizards re-form their power structure.
#15 zombiegleemax Aug 30, 2003 5:45:41	Ariakas is listed in ToTL as a lvl 23 Priest/lvl 10 Fighter, which according to the 2.0 to 3.0 Conversion Guide (Yes, I've still got it), makes Ariakas the equivalent of a 26th level character in 3rd edition. Yes, I remember this rather odd character write-up of Ariakas. Does anyone have any idea why he was statted as a fighter / cleric when he was clearly and in some detail described as a fighter / Black Robe Wizard in Dragons of Spring Dawning , by Weis and Hickman themselves? Its always puzzled me.
#16 jonesy Aug 30, 2003 6:39:22	I always had Ariakas as a 23/10/10 priest/fighter/wizard. Sure it made him rather powerful, but if even his own dragon (and Raistlin!) was afraid of him, well then...
#17 zombiegleemax Aug 30, 2003 13:49:02	I always consider him a cleric not a mage, in the novel Emperor of Ansalon he is also a cleric...
#18 zombiegleemax Aug 30, 2003 20:50:21	I always consider him a cleric not a mage, in the novel Emperor of Ansalon he is also a cleric... True, but Dragons of Spring Dawning should supersede that novel in terms of setting canon, since it is written by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman themselves.
#19 zombiegleemax Aug 30, 2003 22:52:01	Originally posted by Twilight Herald True, but Dragons of Spring Dawning should supersede that novel in terms of setting canon, since it is written by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman themselves. Still, I would prefer to disregard a single line as a mistake rather than an entire novel-one I enjoyed at that...
#20 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2003 0:21:19	I'm not knocking Emperor of Ansalon as a novel - I never got around to reading it, but I know that several of my friends read and enjoyed it. Its just that usually Weis and Hickman novels are considered to be fairly blue-ribbon canon stuff, and Spring Dawning doesn't just drop a throw-away line about Ariakas being a wizard : IIRC it actually talks, in brief, about how he showed an aptitude for the magical arts at an early age, took and passed the Test of High Sorcery, joined the Black Robes, and grew powerful in magic before he returned to his chief love, war. ( ie he began taking Fighter levels) So if the powers have decided that Ariakas was a fighter / cleric instead, its a pretty dubious retcon in my opinion. I would see him as something along the lines of Wizard 6 / Wizard of High Sorcery ( Black ) 9 / Fighter 8.
#21 daedavias_dup Aug 31, 2003 0:34:53	Originally posted by Twilight Herald Wizard 6 / Wizard of High Sorcery ( Black ) 9 / Fighter 8. I would actually place him more as a Fighter 12/ Wizard 5/ WoHS 7 But then again, it did take only one stab to kill the guy, how can he be epic?