Please refrain from using this as a place to state how you want to change a part of DL for your own game...that really is not what I am asking for.
I will pretty much always love the setting, regardless of what happens to it.
HOWEVER, I completly agree with you. I am a dinosaur, and it took me until 3.5 was released to really switch from 2nd ed. I have told each player that every single restricition that used to be in place is still in place. So they will never be a Daeregar, no Thorbardin Dwarf will be a wizard, nor a Kender for that matter. There may be exceptions into the knight hoods, but that could easily happen in the novels as it could in any game.
Rules tinkering to get the flaws out, alternate rules, alternate settings, new villains, new ideas... are all part of a healthy setting. This is normal for a healthy setting. Its the passive deification of the 4th Ages and the 5th ages without the above (what basically the dragonlance community looked like before the Whitestone Council got off the ground) which is the abberation.
Now you want me to diefy the latest incarnation of DL and not experiment? Not tinker? Not suggest what could be done better and why?
Forget it. A slow death in my bath is preferable. ;)
Originally posted by ferratus
*shrugs* We're many people, many of us with substantial experience in playing the game, all of us with different tastes and ideologies.
Rules tinkering to get the flaws out, alternate rules, alternate settings, new villains, new ideas... are all part of a healthy setting. This is normal for a healthy setting. Its the passive deification of the 4th Ages and the 5th ages without the above (what basically the dragonlance community looked like before the Whitestone Council got off the ground) which is the abberation.
Now you want me to diefy the latest incarnation of DL and not experiment? Not tinker? Not suggest what could be done better and why?
Forget it. A slow death in my bath is preferable. ;)
I quite agree that rules tinkering and questions and all of that should be asked...
The biggest heartache as one of the designers (and I figure that all of the designers in the past have experienced this... trust me, after all of this, I have a greater respect for them than I already had!) is only seeing the negative comments though...
In the Navy, there's a saying that I can't quote properly because of board rules, but I'll paraphrase:
"One, 'OH CRAPPOLA' wipes away all those 'attaboys!'"
Basically, negative criticsm kills all the praise. And when a designer goes through the message boards or email and 90% of what they see is stuff along the lines of "This SUXXORS!" or "I could have done it better" or even a few "well, it's just okay...but if they had only done this..." it really starts to outweigh the few voices saying "Hey, I like it as it is! Excellent work!" After awhile, the designers either stop responding or fade into the background, or they give up entirely, realizing that no matter how they fight, they're not gonna be able to please all the people all of the time.
As many bitter dinos can attest (and I am one those, believe it or not), it's the loudest shouts of disagreement that tend to be heard because they're the ones speaking up... the ones that like things or don't disagree have no reason to post. ;)
In the end though, you know what? I'm bloody proud of the work I've done so far
Do I think that there's room for improvement? Of course, not a single thing on this planet is perfect...perfection is boring ;)So, just remember...
Constructive criticism = GOOD
Whining complaints = BAD
Christopher
I generally feel it is a healthy thing, because it helps everybody to learn, both the designers and the fans who want to be designers (the poor fools). If it makes you feel any better, I had only one page in the DLCS and I messed that up real good. ;)
To be blunt though, if people just said "you suck" you wouldn't even register them. If people have a point to their criticisms, or are at least partially correct, then it really stings. In fact, it is probably because I go into such detail about a mistake, and why it is bad, that I probably cut deeper than most. Y'know, I am available to do some playtesting... ;)
The think every designer should dread though is not negative criticism, but silence. Silence is the ultimate insult, since that means that you just suck too badly to generate any interest.
I think the dramatic increase in volume to this message board means you definately do not suck.
1) Where are my vital stats for kender, centaurs, minotaurs, etc. etc.?
2) Where's my hoopak?
3) Why isn't there a big fat gigantic map of Ansalon showing every little hamlet that has ever existed along with sites where future hamlets could exist?
4) Why isn't there a map of the entire world of Krynn?
PRAISE PHASE:
1) Dragon riders rule.
2) Draconians and dragonspawn rule.
3) All the knight prestige classes are very well done, especially the Knights of Neraka.
4) True dragonlances are brutal!
5) I love the WoHS prestige class, even though I generally dislike specialist wizards.
6) Who says the artwork sucks? Looks fine to me.
7) I like having adventures included in the back, because they provide me with more NPC stats.
8) Mystics don't suck. They're like Shugenja, except better , and I love Shugenja.
9) Death Knights of Krynn are so very cool. I felt like writing an angry letter to Dragon magazine when I saw this title in one issue of their magazine:
"Death Knights of Oerth"
10) Dragonlance rocks, that's why other campaign settings have ripped it off, e.g.
a. Gnomes in Forgotten Realms are all of a sudden tinkering busybodies that worship a god of invention ... hmm, wonder where that idea came from?
b. The aforementioned Death Knights debacle.
c. Forgotten Realms gods fighting wars on the planet? What'd they do, take some cues from Krynn's pantheon?
d. Halflings went from short, chunky, furry-footed, no shoes wearing, homebodies to short, lean, shoe wearing, resistant to fear, adventuring and wandering demihumans ... sounds rather kenderish.
11) I now go into a hobbyshop and evaluate new D&D/d20 products on this one criterion:
"Hmm, I wonder if this would work in my Dragonlance campaign?"
I think everything is fine the way it is, and if you don't like something you change it. Its not like some one is going to sue you or something.;)
Originally posted by iltharanos
1) Dragon riders rule.
2) Draconians and dragonspawn rule.
3) All the knight prestige classes are very well done, especially the Knights of Neraka.
You know, I like the dragon riders, but the most interesting and intreaging is the Righteous Zealot. They gave us a way to create another Kingpriest through this. I like that.
I was doing some stats on Auraks last night for player characters. Just one thing stuck out. Favored Class - Sorcerer. An aurak that gains levels in sorcerer adds his inate caster ability to the sorcerer class. This means that an aurak with 7th level of sorcerer has the spells known, spells per day, and spell DC's of a 15th level sorcerer
That blew me away, especially when I see the character level of +4. Talk about a power house.
I love the knights of Neraka, and find it very interesting how the change in the gods ended up causing changin in the Knights of Solamnia and how the cast clerical spells, now requiring a level of cleric. Interesting, but definetly cool.
Originally posted by iltharanos
9) Death Knights of Krynn are so very cool. I felt like writing an angry letter to Dragon magazine when I saw this title in one issue of their magazine:
"Death Knights of Oerth"
Why? You do realize, of course, that Death Knights were originally presented in the 1e Fiend Folio, right? They're not a DL-specific monster.
a. Gnomes in Forgotten Realms are all of a sudden tinkering busybodies that worship a god of invention ... hmm, wonder where that idea came from?
This is something that isn't localized to just the FR anymore, either. I'm seeing all sorts of tinkering classes, and you see Tinker Gnomes in Urban Arcana for d20 Modern as well as Dragonstar.
Heck, now Urban Arcana has medallions of fatih!
Just goes to show that when you create something good, people will imitate you. ;)
1. For your future DL products PLEASE get some artist that can actually draw stuff the way that it's supposed to look. Some people like the art in the book and others like me despise it. I can handle bad art, but at least get artists in the future to draw the Staff of Magius and Dragonlances properly! The ones in the book don't look anything like how I've seen them described time and again in the novels.
2. In the other Age books give more details on politics and cultures and include population numbers for all the countries and most of the major cities. Others may disagree, but I find this info essential in a campaign setting book. It doesn't take up much space either.
Originally posted by Mucknuggle
1. For your future DL products PLEASE get some artist that can actually draw stuff the way that it's supposed to look. Some people like the art in the book and others like me despise it. I can handle bad art, but at least get artists in the future to draw the Staff of Magius and Dragonlances properly! The ones in the book don't look anything like how I've seen them described time and again in the novels.
Noted :D
Christopher
I was a die-hard Dragonlance fan for years, and played for quite some time in the AD&D 2nd Ed. Tale of the Lance rules. Then I made a happy jump to SAGA which I ran for close 5 years! And while I worship the ground SAGA products were created upon, I have to admit that the current DLCS is by far the finest piece of work to date.
It's excellent. Outstanding. The rules are great, the writing is clear and concise, and the layout is beautiful. I don't have a single gripe. And as someone looking to get something published in the industry in the near future, I can certainly sympathize about Stormprince's negative criticism comment. It's not necessary, it's boorish, and it doesn't serve any purpose except to allow those of us with less than proper levels of tolerance and compassion for hard work to vent ridiculous qualms. Those who do can take their opinions on that topic to the bank, cash them in, buy a fiberglass manequin, and go to town, because I for one completely agree on what Christopher said. I went through it myself on these boards versus the old Cyan/Alex debates when I released my 5th Age work.
The work and effort that has been poured into the current Dragonlance product is deserving of such praises on it's own merit. Not to say that anyone who disagrees is an idealistic heathen who should shut up and be happy that something got put out in print, but once again, [b]CONSTRUCTIVE[/b] criticism goes the extra mile that outright nagging fails to conceptualize.
Major kudos the the DLCS team. Although I don't really run Dragonlance games anymore, I have taken the time to test the DLCS fairly thoroughly over the past month or two and all I can say is that it is a true testament to outstanding labor efforts and creative guile.
Zing.
And... peace!
BTW, Chris, use your latent magical powers and make the DM screen come out right on September 1st
...anyway, a big kudos goes out to all those involved in the making of these wonderful books. If I could name them all without looking into the credits of the book (and around Margaret Weis's signature), I would thank each and everyone personally.
Actually there is one thing. The nights of the sword and knights of the rose. Is this something that has changes in the age of mortals or is this something this supposed to be how it always was ?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Why? You do realize, of course, that Death Knights were originally presented in the 1e Fiend Folio, right? They're not a DL-specific monster.
True, but in my mind Dragonlance cornered the death knight market ... and death knights in Greyhawk struck me as a blasphemy. ;D
This is something that isn't localized to just the FR anymore, either. I'm seeing all sorts of tinkering classes, and you see Tinker Gnomes in Urban Arcana for d20 Modern as well as Dragonstar.
Heck, now Urban Arcana has medallions of fatih!
Just goes to show that when you create something good, people will imitate you. ;)
Imitation is the highest form of flattery, right? :D
EXCEPT!
The art.
For example, the brass dragon. That picture is... it's just... I mean look at the... ARGH! I frelling hate that pic!
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
This is just a test reply. For some reaon my reply to hammerhand doesn't show up.
Try hitting refresh afterwards. Right now there is four replies to that post by you.
I do have a few critiques: the Curse of the Magi still irks me, but that is a deep and complex problem that dates to my own experience in game designing.
And this might be addressed, i don't know, but how can a Solamnic Knight advance in the fourth age when there are no God's to grant spell casting abilities? Does taking regular ranks of Cleric cover that? I only had like five minutes before the girl behind the counter started going "This isn't a library!" which is rude, cause I know the owner, and I usually buy all of my D&D products there, and I am a loyal custumer. I should have taunted her!!
So yeah. GREAT product. I mean, i'm really impressed. Most of my group has NEVER done a DL campaign, and i'm looking forward to torturing them at the hands of evil Draconians.
A couple of other things:
1) I'm working on a continent to include in Krynn: Mon Shea Tek, whic his an Oriental/Middle Eastern/Ancient World type setting, with some neat features! Would you guys like a copy when I get done? (You can even publish it if you really like it, but i just like to share my ideas, which is the cool thing about D20!)
2) YELL AT AMAZON! Sept 12th is a long time after the release date and I want my books now! (what I do for free shipping!)
3) When do the Afflicted Kender take over the world?
4) Where can I get a copy of the SAGA rule system? My own have been stolen, I still have the box set and the cards, but the two rule books were evilly stolen from me which is really ticking me off!
Rosisha