This is another one of my sunday-at-work brainstroming result.
Another one can be found at the following thread Beyond the prism pentad.
This is an essay on our favorite subject, SKs. :D
There is some delicate interpretation as for the moments of the deaths of Irikos and Merek, and if you have any comment contradicting these or any other, please post it so this reasonning can be further refined. But note that I'm only searching for interpretation of factual evidence (i.e. what's in the books).
At the moment of Hamanu’s creation, there is…
- the 15 numbered base Champions, to be found in the Dark Sun Setting
- Pennarin (mentioned in The Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, destroyed by Rajaat before it’s own fall, was never replaced by a later Champion due to Rajaat’s imprisonment; thus we are forced to add a sixteenth race to be slaughtered and a new Champion to the base 15)
There also had been…
- Myron, who was replaced by Hamanu
- unknown ‘dwarf-killer’ Champion, who was replaced by Borys
The 15 Champions all have their own race to slaughter and so must Pennarin. That brings the number of base Champions to 16 and the total produced to 18.
To this number we can add two Champions, of which much can be deduced from the context of their deaths:
- Irikos, the left hand of Rajaat, killed during the sacking of Bodach
- Merek the Wrong, killed during the siege of the fortress Akarakle
Merek died destroying a last holdout of preserver resistance, which puts is death during the last days of the war against the preservers, before the Cleansing Wars. Since Merek died before the beginning of the Cleansing Wars, we deduce that Rajaat would have replaced him and we can assume that one of the 16 base Champions is a replacement. As for Irikos, he died after having completed is task of racial elimination, and Rajaat would have had no need to replace him. Thus with no replacement among the known Champions we must add another race to slaughter and another base Champion dedicated to that task.
Irikos is added to the 16 base Champions, and both he and Merek to the total produced, thus bringing the number of base Champions to 17 and the total produced to 20 (three have been killed and replaced).
One last possibly omitted Champion in this list comes from a brief mention of a ‘centaur-killer’ in The Rise and Fall of a Dragon King. Since we do not know today of such a champion, Irikos or Pennarin can fill its position. If neither one filled the position, than another one must have, bringing the number of base Champions to 18 and the total produced to 21.
Considering the new material on The Burnt World of Athas :
- from The Terrors of the Dead Lands : the Neksos, a ‘dwarf-killer’, probably the original Champion that Borys replaced
Thus, here are the Champions that have existed, that we know of, and their numbered positions, as well as the races they were to cleanse:
1-Sacha - Curse of the Kobolds
2-Kalak - Ogre Doom/Ogre-Naugh
3-Dregoth - Ravager of Giants
4-Myron, replaced by Hamanu - Troll Scorcher
5-Uyness/Abalach-Re - Orc Plague
6-Gallard/Nibenay - Bane of Gnomes
7-Sielba - Destroyer of Pterrans
8-Albeorn/Andropinis - Slayer of Elves
9-Tectuktitlay - Wemic Annihilator
10-Keltis/Oronis - Lizard Man Executioner
11-Inenek/Lalali-Puy - Aarakocra Scourge
12-Wyan - Pixie Blight
13-unknown ‘dwarf-killer’ (perhaps the Neksos), replaced by Borys - Butcher of Dwarves
14-Daskinor - Goblin Death
15-Kalid-Ma - Tari-Killer
X -Pennarin
X -Irikos
X -unknown ‘centaur-killer’ (perhaps Pennarin or Irikos) - Centaur Crusher
Note that one of the above Champions is probably a replacement for Merek.
Note: All of the above thoughts disregard the usual DS contradictions. For ex.: Irikos was said in the Book of Artifacts(2nd D&D) to have cleansed the orcs, but in the Dark Sun setting that feat is attributed to Uyness/Abalach-Re. Instead, a more general position is taken, which states that Irikos was a Champion and that he did eliminate his designated race. No comment on what it was.
It said the Neksos was 'a' dwarf-killer right?
Is it possible that Neksos was a captain under Borys and not a Champion?
If so, Pennarin and Irikos could each be either the Champion Borys replaced and or the Centaur-killer and it works out.
Does it state that the Champion Borys replaced was killed?
Originally posted by Ral of Tyr
I am thinking that just maybe one of the Champions that was said to die did not die or reached some other state (Lich?). Perhaps they are rulling a city-state in some far off region or their children are.
Of course it is only recorded that they have died, much like it was recorded in the book of Kemalok that Borys left in the middle of the war with the dwarves and never returned, while in fact he did come back to finish the job as the Dragon, so...
Originally posted by Ral of Tyr
It said the Neksos was 'a' dwarf-killer right?
Yes, page 49 of TotDL
Originally posted by Ral of Tyr
Is it possible that Neksos was a captain under Borys and not a Champion?
TotDL, page 49: 'In life Sekdo Azeg was a war-chief of the armies of the Neksos, one of Rajaat's Champions.'
Originally posted by Ral of Tyr
Does it state that the Champion Borys replaced was killed?
Yes, somewhere in RafDK. As Hamanu meets Borys again he reminesses about his past and is thoughts are something like this: The dwarves had killed the earlier Champion that Rajaat had sent to them. Like he, Borys was a replacement.
Thanx for challenging my ideas :D, that's the only way I'm going to find flaws.
Originally posted by Ral of Tyr
I am thinking that just maybe one of the Champions that was said to die did not die or reached some other state (Lich?). Perhaps they are rulling a city-state in some far off region or their children are.
Actually, that would be Dregoth, who was killed by the other champions, then came back as something like a Kaisharga (sort-of Athasian Lich), and rules New Giustenal.
I believe i read it in the Rise and fall of a dragon king book, not sure though , may have been in the prism pentad , but in the pentad it also stated that kalak did not have his own abilites to grant spells upon him templars , they recieved it from sasha/wyan and only thought they recieved it from Kalak.
Thus Kalak was never placed before the black lens and it could then be assumed that he would not be a champion then , because all champions had been made so by the lens , besides dregoth whom had been some kind of eternal king who had a vendetta against the giants for some reason
If so, Pennarin and Irikos could each be either the Champion Borys replaced and or the Centaur-killer and it works out.
Well Pennarin was killed by Rajaat after the Borys led revolt started. So at least Pennarin wasn't the former dwarf genocidial madman.
Sounds like Neksos would be that original Champion.
Originally posted by Cerberysumbralthane
According to the stuff I remember reading Kalak was never one of Rajaat's champions he was just one big bad ass defiler and because he was not a preserver Rajaat did not decide to go after him at that point in time.
Rise and Fall had it, however Rise and Fall has a few inconsistancies in the story (not as much as the Tribe of One series did). The "official" (and I use that term loosely) list of champions that is found has him most notably as one of the Champions, the one that tracked down and wiped out the Ogres (Lelei-puy was in charge of wiping out the Aarakocra, rather than the Ogres as Rise and Fall has, if I remember).
Originally posted by Cerberysumbralthane
According to the stuff I remember reading Kalak was never one of Rajaat's champions he was just one big bad ass defiler and because he was not a preserver Rajaat did not decide to go after him at that point in time.
Many views have been held by the people who have at one time or another posted on the DSBoards, including one that Kalak already was a dragon and tried to further is transformation thru is ziggurat scheme, alto I can't find evidence anywhere for that. But the RafDK showed, like you’re saying, that Kalak was already old and powerful when the wars began. But he was never under the crystal steeple, foot first in the black waters of the Alabaster Fortress on top of the Pristine Tower. Hamanu despises him for being a coward (or some such) and not being a Champion. So yes, he was a mortal man that probably became immortal by is own means, though I'm not sure he was actually immortal (i.e. as found an arcane process to stop is aging) because of is decrepit appearance. Is status as a Champion is one only in name. He cleansed the ogres. Thus 'Champion of Rajaat'.
Originally posted by Cerberysumbralthane
I believe i read it in the Rise and fall of a dragon king book, not sure though , may have been in the prism pentad , but in the pentad it also stated that kalak did not have his own abilites to grant spells upon him templars , they recieved it from sasha/wyan and only thought they recieved it from Kalak.
Kalak essentially brainwashed the two former (and quite diminished) Champions into believing he was the source of the templar spells. Since these two are still alive in some way (undeath, like Dregoth), their connection with the dark lens is still active. Only now, thru some unknown process, it is Kalak that redirects the flow of dark lens magic to is followers.
Originally posted by Cerberysumbralthane
Thus Kalak was never placed before the black lens and it could then be assumed that he would not be a champion then , because all champions had been made so by the lens , besides dregoth whom had been some kind of eternal king who had a vendetta against the giants for some reason.
Dregoth was already immortal and waging a war with the giants when Rajaat found him and made him a Champion. You cleanse a race, you get the title of Champion and receive a number for the time you were created or enlisted.
A parenthese here: Saying someone is immortal is not the same as saying he uses powerfull sorcery to periodicaly push back the effects of time. Dregoth became immortal on is own before becoming a Champion, and it is probably the same process he used on Mon Adderath. As far as I know from the books, these two are the only non-Champions that have been said to have been immortal.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
The "official" (and I use that term loosely) list of champions that is found has him most notably as one of the Champions, the one that tracked down and wiped out the Ogres (Lelei-puy was in charge of wiping out the Aarakocra, rather than the Ogres as Rise and Fall has, if I remember).
Like I say on the beginning of the tread, no valuable information can be extracted from such inconsistencies, as they arose from author error. He wiped-out something, even if books don't agree as to what. We have to disregard the usual DS contradictions or we'll get nowhere.
As a side note at one point they describe the race pennarin is trying to eliminate at one point , in RaFoaSK , think the words where tall race with one large eye , or large eyes , will ook it up , so that would put him out of consideration from the centaur crusher niche , that is if we deside to use rise and fall as a cannoneske reference
In prior discussions like this the common consensus was that the information from the Prism Pentad was to be considered cannon material and according to that material kalak was never actually a champion, belive that came from sasha and wyan somewhere in the first book . But if other source material claims that he did helpwipe out a race i am all ears
and then at the bottom we could have a list of the races mentioned that are without a champion , would make it easier to see what was what and what was left over that we dont have pinned down yet
Perhaps xlorep or nyt have one.
Originally posted by Cerberysumbralthane
As a side note at one point they describe the race pennarin is trying to eliminate at one point , in RaFoaSK , think the words where tall race with one large eye , or large eyes , will ook it up , so that would put him out of consideration from the centaur crusher niche , that is if we deside to use rise and fall as a cannoneske reference
I can't identify the race from its novel description, but it dosen't seem appropriate for the centaur-killer. So that leaves Irikos or Merek or an unknown Champion, alto one of the known Champions is probably a replacement for Merek.
Originally posted by Cerberysumbralthane
In prior discussions like this the common consensus was that the information from the Prism Pentad was to be considered cannon material and according to that material kalak was never actually a champion, belive that came from sasha and wyan somewhere in the first book . But if other source material claims that he did helpwipe out a race i am all ears
The source of that info is actually RafoDK. The source of the templars spell energy wasn't explained in the PP novels, only in the source book Dragon Kings. As such the two floating heads of Sacha and Wyan weren't linked to Kalak in any other way than as slaves until RafoDK, were it was revealed that templar spell energy is dark lens magic channel by the Champions. If you remember, it was only in PP2 that we learned of long dead beings called Champions, that were only later in the novels identified as the SKs. By that time Kalak was long dead. I guess the connection wasn't made for many readers. If the Champions made the Dragon, which turned insane for a king's age and forced the Champions to barricade themselves in cities and make themselves SKs by erasing the records of their existence, than that makes the current SKs the Champions spoken of in those records (i.e. the Book of Kemalok Kings). I still have no doubt that Kalak cleansed a race and that he had a Champion title without actually being one.
If he were, it would have already been mentioned, as he's not an unheard of fellow.
Rajaat had servants who were not, strictly speaking, Champions. Qwith is another example. They served other purposes is Rajaat's schemes. Perhaps he was involved in the war on Preservers, or aided and cosulted the Champions in their missions, just as Qwith continuned magical experementation in the southern regions .....
Since the Campaign setting says that it was Abalach-Re's job, you're left with two alternatives: to ignore the word 'orcs' in the above description (considering its multiples uses as TSR departemental problems), or to consider athasian history is screwed-up.
I chose the first one.
Gives more potential. There is one more race to cleanse.
Also - it is a good point that Rajaat could have had people that were working for him, but were not "Champions". making them all into champions kinda makes Rajaat's plans a little 2-dimentional.
This said, I think there might have been many more champions that were a) killed off during the Cleansing Wars by their appointed race, b) killed by other champions after Rajaat's fall, and then erased from history, c) off on some far side of the world, pursuing the last remnants of their target race, d) killed by Borys when he raged, e) still out there, hiding or insane, f) withdrawn from the rest of the Tyr region either by location or by choice (Kurn, Eldaarich).
There are great number of other options out there, too. I think there are as many champions are necessary to tell the story - you could always pop in a new one if you didn't feel there were enough threats or if, somehow, your players grew bored of the Tyr region (not possible, but I could see it somehow happening).
[edit: RafoaDK should probably not be used as a reference for which champion did what, as TSR was disintegrating at this ponit and Lynn Abbey's questions were largely unanswered (she had to guess and make up a lot of stuff). I do like the idea of Kalak being a powerful sorcerer, and budding dragon, but not a champion. Even so, in more than one canon book, he is referred to as a champion, so I think that line might have to be stopped. Or not - it's your game]
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
For what it's worth, I have been warming up to the idea that Kalak might not be a real "Champion"
Great that's happening for you, since that was a great part of the novel.
If you make Irikos the Orc Champion, and then Uyness the Ogre Champion (as is found in RaFoaDK), then Kalak ciuld have *not* been a champion, but still underwent the transformational process.
Don't know what you mean by "transformational process".
My sole opinion on the matter, is that Kalak could have gained all that power by himself, impressed Rajaat with it and the hate he had for a particular race, and Rajaat then saying the classic «I name you my Xth champion, killer of bla-bla...»
Also - it is a good point that Rajaat could have had people that were working for him, but were not "Champions". making them all into champions kinda makes Rajaat's plans a little 2-dimentional.
Yeh...why all the fun should go to champions, leave some race-whiping to us mortals! We can do it, you'll see! :D
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I think this is mentioned in another thread, but I'll restate it here. Irikos, taken from the 2e Book of Artifacts (notably not a DS book), was said to be the right hand of Rajaat, but I don't remember it ever stating that he was a spellcaster. He could have easily been a warrior or cleric (of water - how's that for irony). Or even a Halfling champion (but I think the book said he was human).
Which could be another pointer to my theory of Psychic Warrior Champions (like I have used for Hamanu & Borys), who were more melee-oriented, and thus gifted with their special weapons by Rajaat while the others were not.
Plus, Irikos is noted to have been the Champion against Orcs (mentioned either above or in another similar post, or both), of which Uyness also is marked as being the Champion set to slaughter Orcs. I used RaFoaDK for reference primarily to maybe make some sense of this - If Irikos was the Champion of Rajaat sent to annihilate the Orcs, then maybe Uyness (Abalach-Re) might have been sent to annihilate a different race. RaFoaDK gives an idea as to what that might have been: Ogres. Ok, so, If Uyness was sent to annihilate the Ogres, then Kalak might have been a farce - not a real Champion, which could also be used to explain how he was handily dispatched by a group of adventurers (technically, the only Dragon King they killed without help from Rajaat. Sadira killing Abalach Re was after her becoming a Sun Wizard, and thus had help from Rajaat).
As RaFoaDK mentions - Kalak could have faked his being a Sorcerer-King by the use of Sacha & Wyan. True, Lynn Abbey wasn't getting her questions answered, but maybe we could use one inconsistancy to straighten out/correct for another one. Plus, you could easily use the concept that the Sorcerer-Monarchs were prone to excessively rewrite history to their favor, and thus inconsistancies would occur. They had little contact with each other (from the looks of things) until Hamanu told Borys what Rajaat was planning, and they united against their master. Maybe they couldn't get the races pinned right on the correct Champion. Maybe they simply didn't care. It doesn't explain how Abalache-Re would accept the concept of her hunting Ogres as opposed to Orcs (once again, it could be an apathetic view here - she didn't care), while Kalak was called the Ogre-Naught/Ogre Doom. Maybe she used Kalak during the wars (as a figurehead for her armies), while was... ahem... in bed with Irikos (and helped him with his war against those pesky Orcs)... so her role would be more difficult for the other Champions to determine.
This said, I think there might have been many more champions that were a) killed off during the Cleansing Wars by their appointed race, b) killed by other champions after Rajaat's fall, and then erased from history, c) off on some far side of the world, pursuing the last remnants of their target race, d) killed by Borys when he raged, e) still out there, hiding or insane, f) withdrawn from the rest of the Tyr region either by location or by choice (Kurn, Eldaarich).
I remember your listing you had.... dozens of Champions. It was a cool idea.
There are great number of other options out there, too. I think there are as many champions are necessary to tell the story - you could always pop in a new one if you didn't feel there were enough threats or if, somehow, your players grew bored of the Tyr region (not possible, but I could see it somehow happening).
[edit: RafoaDK should probably not be used as a reference for which champion did what, as TSR was disintegrating at this ponit and Lynn Abbey's questions were largely unanswered (she had to guess and make up a lot of stuff). I do like the idea of Kalak being a powerful sorcerer, and budding dragon, but not a champion. Even so, in more than one canon book, he is referred to as a champion, so I think that line might have to be stopped. Or not - it's your game]
Lynn Abbey did kinda have to make things up due to TSR, however what are her inconsistancies to the storyline could be utilized at the same time. I dunno, I tend to flip-flop on this, as I see merits of both sides of the arguement.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I think this is mentioned in another thread, but I'll restate it here. Irikos, taken from the 2e Book of Artifacts (notably not a DS book), was said to be the right hand of Rajaat, but I don't remember it ever stating that he was a spellcaster.
Actually two posts above yours is written this
:This said, I think there might have been many more champions that were a) killed off during the Cleansing Wars by their appointed race, b) killed by other champions after Rajaat's fall, and then erased from history, c) off on some far side of the world, pursuing the last remnants of their target race, d) killed by Borys when he raged, e) still out there, hiding or insane, f) withdrawn from the rest of the Tyr region either by location or by choice (Kurn, Eldaarich).
Great ideads! It also ties-in with what I wrote at the beginning of this thread.
Originally posted by Pennarin
Great that's happening for you, since that was a great part of the novel.
I might include such things in my website.... maybe even get the consolidated list of known Champions up there that you've been working on.
Don't know what you mean by "transformational process".
My sole opinion on the matter, is that Kalak could have gained all that power by himself, impressed Rajaat with it and the hate he had for a particular race, and Rajaat then saying the classic «I name you my Xth champion, killer of bla-bla...»
I don't know what I meant there either. probably a mixed up thought, as an old friend of mine called while I was in mid-sentance and was trying to finish typing it while he was on the phone.
However, I don't know if Kalak even was that in this case. What if he was a figurehead set by Uyness/Abalach-Re to lead her armies while she went off and did other things... She has been described as being less than....attentive in the RPG books before, what with her basically ignoring her own children. I always felt that she was a pretty flaky personality.
Yeh...why all the fun should go to champions, leave some race-whiping to us mortals! We can do it, you'll see! :D
Actually, what I was getting at is there was more to Rajaat than his wars against the races. I'm sure he had other types of "assistants" that were not his Champions that led the wars against the races. After all, he did have a loyal collection of Halflings/Shadow Giants... He might have had ones researching the elemental planes (and their uses), as well as the black, the Grey, and so forth, in an attempt to achieve the physical recreation of the Blue Age. He wouldn't have cared much for the condition of the surface of Athas, as he probably just assumed it would be submerged under the large ocean, but how to make that ocean, he might have been working on/had people working on. Plus he might have had people monitoring the Halflings as well.
A couple of months have passed and I've seen flaws, and the Timeline wasen't used to its full potential.
For example: Merek the Wrong. In reading carefuly Dragon's Crown, it can be gleaned from his letter to Hamanu that he his a military general in the service of Hamanu, not a fellow champion playing some subservient role to him.*
So that's one champion less...
I'll be working on it again and you can bounce me an email to get it if you want.
*Idea!: In Abbey's novels, templar magic dosen't work too deep underground (Cinnabar Shadow), and, I'm not sure as to the precise limits or nature of the weakening, but templar magic weakens with distance. Remember that far away templar Hamanu could barely hear? Or was it because Uyness was blocking the connection? There might be both instances in RaFoaDK, for all I know.
Considered that for your Champion template?
Originally posted by Pennarin
Xlorep, if you really intend to use the reasonning above, you should know that in its current form, its flawed.
A couple of months have passed and I've seen flaws, and the Timeline wasen't used to its full potential.
For example: Merek the Wrong. In reading carefuly Dragon's Crown, it can be gleaned from his letter to Hamanu that he his a military general in the service of Hamanu, not a fellow champion playing some subservient role to him.*
So that's one champion less...
I'm just saying that I'm more open for ideas. I've been juggling Kalak and Irikos in my head, and am kinda waiting to see what Nyt has come up with for Irikos as well.
I'll be working on it again and you can bounce me an email to get it if you want.
Will do.
*Idea!: In Abbey's novels, templar magic dosen't work too deep underground (Cinnabar Shadow), and, I'm not sure as to the precise limits or nature of the weakening, but templar magic weakens with distance. Remember that far away templar Hamanu could barely hear? Or was it because Uyness was blocking the connection? There might be both instances in RaFoaDK, for all I know.
Considered that for your Champion template?
A range limitation? Yea, I was thinking about that. Of course the problem I immediately see with it is the concept of Oronis and his spy/templars. Of course, his templars might have to use more....standard techniques for their spying, that is until they get back up north closer to Kern. Just another thing to think about.
In essence, a templar has to shout to get his spells from an SK (templars are divine spellcasters calling on their Sks power after all) and some people (ie all the spell-granting SKs) can hear that shouting.
A few low level spells may not be seen as that important but big spells would be. So we have templars generally staying close to their city and sorceror king - a reason why the cities don't expand too much and why you don't get templars attacking other cities very often. It's easier to use defilers and other agents against other cities until your sorceror-king is ready to declare all-out war.
So the templar agents of Kurn have access to their spells but are reluctant to use them too often as it would draw the attention of the local SK and their templars?
Just an alternative to having a flat out range limitation for SK spell granting.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
A range limitation? Yea, I was thinking about that. Of course the problem I immediately see with it is the concept of Oronis and his spy/templars. Of course, his templars might have to use more....standard techniques for their spying, that is until they get back up north closer to Kern. Just another thing to think about.
How can they be spies if some form of magic can reveal their status as templars?
And if a rival templar's magic dosen't make bells ring in a Sk's head, why would the spie-templars of Kurn need so much training? They could just rely on their magic to hide their nature!
To me it smells like a SK dosen't know a rival' templar his using magic in his city unless he's very close or the SK is looking into it, and that the spy-templars need training because they don't have magic to rely on anymore (they could get a few levels in another class).
Just ideas...
Originally posted by Wintergreen
Rather than a range limitation, how about having it that the Sorceror kings are sensitive to any templar requests for power or when a sorceror king grants spells so any templar spellcasting near the city of another sorceror king is going to attract attention?
Well, that's sort of like saying that somehow all the Sorcerer-Monarchs can listen in on each other's thoughts. I mean, the Templar-SM connection I've always felt was rather personal. A link between master & servant that is more akin to the link between a standard PHB Cleric and his God.
In essence, a templar has to shout to get his spells from an SK (templars are divine spellcasters calling on their Sks power after all) and some people (ie all the spell-granting SKs) can hear that shouting.
The concept of a range limitation however keeps the Templars more limited to sticking around their Sorcerer-Monarchs. I mean, how often do you see anything about a Templar going to (or through) another city, or just wandering the Tablelands. to date, I can think only of some of Kern's Templars (the rest of them remain in ern, either as Teachers in New Kern, or as pretending to be "normal" templars in Old Kern).
A few low level spells may not be seen as that important but big spells would be. So we have templars generally staying close to their city and sorceror king - a reason why the cities don't expand too much and why you don't get templars attacking other cities very often. It's easier to use defilers and other agents against other cities until your sorceror-king is ready to declare all-out war.
That sounds like a logical approach, and it does have merits. I guess I'll have to weigh the differences. However, there *are* novels that have a sort of range limitation described in them.
So the templar agents of Kurn have access to their spells but are reluctant to use them too often as it would draw the attention of the local SK and their templars?
Just an alternative to having a flat out range limitation for SK spell granting.
Yea, I dunno. The idea of spell granting range limits would, IMHO show yet another way how the SM's aren't really gods, but are rather mortals that have had many different things happen to them.
Originally posted by Pennarin
How can they be spies if some form of magic can reveal their status as templars?
And if a rival templar's magic dosen't make bells ring in a Sk's head, why would the spie-templars of Kurn need so much training? They could just rely on their magic to hide their nature!
To me it smells like a SK dosen't know a rival' templar his using magic in his city unless he's very close or the SK is looking into it, and that the spy-templars need training because they don't have magic to rely on anymore (they could get a few levels in another class).
Just ideas...
Yea, I was thinking that the spy-templars would actually have a PrC that made them closer to a Rogue in many ways....
Having not read most of the novels (i read only 2 of the Prism Pentad), I am not familiar with many of those resources, so I am hesitant to offer opinions or advice.
I do have a fairly straightforward question though, which I believe you could answer.
The timeline states that the champions got the ability to channel templar energy only after the rebellion, when they transformed Borys into the Dragon. If that is true, Sacha and Wyan would probably not be able to channel that energy. But many of you seem to say that RaFoaDK contradicts this. And frankly, I originally thought that Rajaat was the one to grant them this ability when turning them into champions, which seem to be false.
So, I'd like to know if Sacha and Wyan are actually described as being able to channel energy in the novel.
Also, is there any source material that describes what being a Champion gave the champions in the first place, if templar magic was not one of those things?
Thanks
What I like most about this thread and the ideas in it is that it helps give a rather good, and impressive explanation to help cover the various inaccuracies in the Dark Sun setting. If they could become official corrections, it really would be cool. Either way, much of what has been presented is definitely going into my own Dark Sun campaigns.
The only place that states, IIR, that the two were traitors *during* the rebellion, and thus were not included in Borys's gift to the other champions, is in RaFoaDK.
So we say say that we can't use RaFoaDK because it would contradict the Timeline, while the Timeline was partially based on RaFoaDK!
Am I making any sense??
The important thing is the use of the term "partially".
Element of RaFoaDK:
1- Sacha & Wyan betray the others after killing Rajaat as they try to break open the cyst to release Rajaat's substance.
2- The champions discover that the connection with the dark lens, from the time of their creation, allows them to grant spells.
Element of the Timeline:
1- «Sacha and Wyan, who remained loyal to their master, attempted to breach the cyst before it is hidden away. Their plan is discovered and they are beheaded by Borys.»
2- «Through the use of the Dark Lens, Borys rewards the remaining Champions by beginning their transformations into sorcerer-kings. This process links each of them to living vortices, which allows them to grant their followers clerical spells.»
There is about a dozen others half-uses, or half-adaptations of RaFoaDK in the Timeline.
I ask this question then: How many of the concepts that replace those unused halves is *not* written in any accessory or novel of Denning?
How much of it appears only in the Timeline?
If the Timeline had said Ktandeo was an halfling, or that Rajaat had a twin, would any credence be given to those bits of info?
P.S. Sorry if I sound angry, I'm not actually. There's just no half-way of puting it (pun intended). :D
The main reason for this is not because of the source material, its because I just don't understand what Rajaat or Borys did exactly to the champions...
From the Timeline:
''Using the power of the Pristine Tower and the mysterious Dark Lens, Rajaat creates his Champions. Each Champion is ordered to eliminate one specific race from the face of Athas in an effort to bring about the return of the Blue Age.''
Ok. Champions were created, and that seems fine and all, but what exactly ARE champions? Defiler/psions of great power, I know, but they were that already. What did Rajaat give them that was so powerful that it required both the Pristine Tower and the Dark Lens artifact to do, and allowed them, or at least facilitated them to wipe out entire races?
Then:
''Through the use of the Dark Lens, Borys rewards the remaining Champions by beginning their transformations into sorcerer-kings. This process links each of them to living vortices, which allows them to grant their followers clerical spells.''
Beginning their transformation into Sorcerer-kings. Not Dragons. Sorcerer-kings. Now one could this had to do with granting elemental spells, but that seems to be described as a side effect, according to what many people say.
So the whole idea of granting spells could just be an accident! And if that is true, what the heck is a Champion and a Sorcerer-King???
Anyways, more on this later...
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
''Using the power of the Pristine Tower and the mysterious Dark Lens, Rajaat creates his Champions. Each Champion is ordered to eliminate one specific race from the face of Athas in an effort to bring about the return of the Blue Age.''
Ok. Champions were created, and that seems fine and all, but what exactly ARE champions? Defiler/psions of great power, I know, but they were that already. What did Rajaat give them that was so powerful that it required both the Pristine Tower and the Dark Lens artifact to do, and allowed them, or at least facilitated them to wipe out entire races?
No, I think this is what made them defiler/psions and it started them on the 1st stage of dragon metamorphisis, along with immortality.
Then:
''Through the use of the Dark Lens, Borys rewards the remaining Champions by beginning their transformations into sorcerer-kings. This process links each of them to living vortices, which allows them to grant their followers clerical spells.''
Beginning their transformation into Sorcerer-kings. Not Dragons. Sorcerer-kings. Now one could this had to do with granting elemental spells, but that seems to be described as a side effect, according to what many people say.
No, I also think this gave them the ability to grant spells to their templars as well as perceive what their templars perceived via xlorep's rules.
It wasn't an accident IMO.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Sacha and Wyans background was actually first in the Prism Pentad. Its one small instance of Rise and Fall being consistant with the rest of the setting. Its said that they sided with Rajaat against the other SKs, hence they were beheaded by the traitor SKs. They weren't the traitors by they way, it was the rest of the SKs who turned on their master. Sacha and Wyan were, in effect, more loyalists.
Its very difficult for me to express ideas in english like that.
Sorry if I don't make sense. :embarrass
The Prism Pentad dosen't say *when* the champions got the power to grant spells. It was RaFoaDK who said when that event occured.
The Prism Pentad says that Sacha & Wyan were traitors. But it was in RaFoaDK that the specifics of their treachery (when exactly it occured, after and before what event, etc...) was revealed.
The Timeline's author, in writing that Sacha & Wyan were beheaded in the exact same circumstances as in RaFoaDK, demonstrates that he did read the book and imported the idea from it.
Yet when its time to say *when* the champions got the power to grant spells, it dosen't side with the same source, and it dosen't side with the PP since its not told in that book, but it states a timetable that we haven't seen before.
This new date (Dragon's creation) is unique to the Timeline.
Am I clearer?
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
No, I think this [edit: The creation of the Champions] is what made them defiler/psions and it started them on the 1st stage of dragon metamorphisis, along with immortality.
Hmm... Not sure I understand. Surely the chosen to-be champions were already powerful defilers and psions. Do you mean that this is what allowed them to access psionic enchantements? The 10th level / epic spells?
As for the Dragon metamorphosis, I never saw it that way... I personally always thought that this process was developped later by the champions, namely Borys, during the cleansing wars. The basic reason for this is that Rajaat would probably have had all champions become full dragons before unleashing them, as they would have been much more powerful.
I think immortality is a good start for a champion ability. Mechanically, I think I would take inspiration from the Chosen of [FR god] templates of Forgotten Realms for other abilities.
No, I also think this [edit: The creation of sorcerer kings] gave them the ability to grant spells to their templars as well as perceive what their templars perceived via xlorep's rules.
It wasn't an accident IMO.
Indeed, which source material describes this as an accident exactly?
I would have thought that the champions would have simply battled Rajaat and eventually used Gallard's spells to defeat and bind the First Sorcerer. Then, Borys simply gave them the secrets of Dragonhood he had developped, and had them transform him into a full dragon, so that he would be powerful enough to contain Rajaat. The champions would only later have attempted Dragon metamorphosis by themselves.
To continue with our Kalak-not-a-champion theory, Kalak was also given the secrets of dragonhood, but he quickly found that non-champions could not reach the first stage of dragonhood by the process developped by Borys. Though Highly frustrating, this later drove Kalak to carry his dragonhood research even further than most other sorcerer kings (hence spying on Kalid-Ma and attempting to develop a unique way to reach dragonhood).
As for the templar magic, it could have been accidental or not, and happenned as they used the dark lens to channel immense amounts of energy into Borys. Those who participated where linked to the vortice entity, and have acted as energy gates ever since.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
From the Timeline:
''Using the power of the Pristine Tower and the mysterious Dark Lens, Rajaat creates his Champions. Each Champion is ordered to eliminate one specific race from the face of Athas in an effort to bring about the return of the Blue Age.''
Ok. Champions were created, and that seems fine and all, but what exactly ARE champions? Defiler/psions of great power, I know, but they were that already. What did Rajaat give them that was so powerful that it required both the Pristine Tower and the Dark Lens artifact to do, and allowed them, or at least facilitated them to wipe out entire races?
The Champions were, IMHO, the individually, hand-picked, "best of the best" students of Rajaat's, that he felt had teh most promise for being shaped by his will, and to accomplish his goals. They were then granted power to accomplish this task, as well as a focus to complete it. My template is an attempt to reflect what all happened to them by Rajaat when he changed them.
Then:
''Through the use of the Dark Lens, Borys rewards the remaining Champions by beginning their transformations into sorcerer-kings. This process links each of them to living vortices, which allows them to grant their followers clerical spells.''
Beginning their transformation into Sorcerer-kings. Not Dragons. Sorcerer-kings. Now one could this had to do with granting elemental spells, but that seems to be described as a side effect, according to what many people say.
So the whole idea of granting spells could just be an accident! And if that is true, what the heck is a Champion and a Sorcerer-King???
Anyways, more on this later...
And I tried to represent this by making my template on Sorcerer-Monarchs. I included the granting spells, as well as some other abilities that were mentioned in Rise & Fall that Hamanu possessed (which I adapted & restricted from certian salient divine abilities found in Deities & Demigods). I didn't go into if the spellcasting was a side-effect or not, but rather those which the Sorcerer-Monarch has the ability to sense through/communicate with also can cast spells granted by the Sorcerer-Monarch.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
No, I think this is what made them defiler/psions and it started them on the 1st stage of dragon metamorphisis, along with immortality.
I think that them being powerful psionic/arcane characters were actually separate and independant of them becoming champions. I think that Rajaat selected from his defiler/psion (or in a couple cases, in my view also his defiler/psychic warrior) students, but I think he could have made anyone into a Champion. Of course, without being capable of advancing through the Dragon metamorphosis (and later the Avangion metamorphosis), it reduces their overall potential. I don't think Hamanu was actually a powerful defiler/psychic warrior when he was made a Champion. However, I also believe he's a special case, and has had some....unique work done on him by Rajaat to make him much more impressive.
Originally posted by Pennarin
Its very difficult for me to express ideas in english like that.
Sorry if I don't make sense. :embarrass
The Prism Pentad dosen't say *when* the champions got the power to grant spells. It was RaFoaDK who said when that event occured.
The Prism Pentad says that Sacha & Wyan were traitors. But it was in RaFoaDK that the specifics of their treachery (when exactly it occured, after and before what event, etc...) was revealed.
The Timeline's author, in writing that Sacha & Wyan were beheaded in the exact same circumstances as in RaFoaDK, demonstrates that he did read the book and imported the idea from it.
Yet when its time to say *when* the champions got the power to grant spells, it dosen't side with the same source, and it dosen't side with the PP since its not told in that book, but it states a timetable that we haven't seen before.
This new date (Dragon's creation) is unique to the Timeline.
Am I clearer?
I think this is a chicken/egg issue. Pennarin believes that Rise & Fall came before the timeline. I think that the timeline was already in existence, in one form or another, somewhere within TSR at the time. Also, I think that Abbey might have been able to (after much frustration) get *some* information about it, while not all, and not nearly enough for what she needed.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
As for the Dragon metamorphosis, I never saw it that way... I personally always thought that this process was developped later by the champions, namely Borys, during the cleansing wars. The basic reason for this is that Rajaat would probably have had all champions become full dragons before unleashing them, as they would have been much more powerful.
I think Rajaat did develop the Dragon Metamorphosis process, however as I said earlier, I think that process and the "birth" of the Champions are separate entities. I think that actually, one or two of the Champions were already undergoing the metamorphic changes before they became Champions (Dregoth, for example), while others don't start the process until later. I think the Dragon metamorphosis enhances their Champion abilities (and vice-versa), however.
I would have thought that the champions would have simply battled Rajaat and eventually used Gallard's spells to defeat and bind the First Sorcerer. Then, Borys simply gave them the secrets of Dragonhood he had developped, and had them transform him into a full dragon, so that he would be powerful enough to contain Rajaat. The champions would only later have attempted Dragon metamorphosis by themselves.
I figured that by the point of the rebellion, they all had begun the dragon metamorphosis, the other rebel Champions (and Kalak, if you follow that he isn't a Champion outright) simply worked together to "accelerate" the process in Borys (which then later Kalid-Ma would attempt by himself, and Kalak would follow in suit, both with tragic results).
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I think that them being powerful psionic/arcane characters were actually separate and independant of them becoming champions. I think that Rajaat selected from his defiler/psion (or in a couple cases, in my view also his defiler/psychic warrior) students, but I think he could have made anyone into a Champion. Of course, without being capable of advancing through the Dragon metamorphosis (and later the Avangion metamorphosis), it reduces their overall potential.
Right, that was what I was trying to convey.
I don't think Hamanu was actually a powerful defiler/psychic warrior when he was made a Champion. However, I also believe he's a special case, and has had some....unique work done on him by Rajaat to make him much more impressive.
Agreed.
I rather liked RaFoaDK interpretation that he had to fight the metamorphisis, and that he would eventually become a full dragon no matter what.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
I rather liked RaFoaDK interpretation that he had to fight the metamorphisis, and that he would eventually become a full dragon no matter what.
Interesting statement... got to get my hands on that book...
My birthday is on Feb. 28th. Anyone out here want to send me their DS novels as a Birthday present? :D
I know, I'll use ebay... heh! ;)
Rajaat never had the intention on *giving* the world to the humans(champions) after the cleansing wars but rather he wanted to bring back Athas to a new Blue Age thus *giving* it back to the halflings of the Jagged Cliffs( and probably those serving him in the pristine tower before being sent to the black) And we all know Halfling cannot cast spells what so ever.(them being born before the discovery of magic and also because of how they persived the essence of life itselfs--last being my personnal thouth) That 's the main reason why Rajaat decided to choose humans as champions for his cleansing war and then,probably, transforming himself into the Champion of human annihilator(by transforming himself into a true dragon!!!!) once the world ready for a new Blue Age.
If we follow canon material I think the promise was a lie. But that doesn't mean he didn't had discovered the dragon metamorphosis for himself. Maybe he finally found a way to change his own mental and physical nature-something he searched for centuries- Somewhere in the Pristine tower, where Rajaat did his researches in his last centuries of ruleship, could have been a library/lab with such information which Borys could have discovered before or after the rebellion(depending on the timeline you want to beleive.).
Just a thought, and I dont think Rajaat had the intention of helping his Champion without having an *exit* route for eventually get rid of them with ease. I think the Dragon metamorphosis were never ment for humans. But for Rajaat himself. He just made a mistake when he hinted a new way of *being* when he made his promise.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I think this is a chicken/egg issue. Pennarin believes that Rise & Fall came before the timeline. I think that the timeline was already in existence, in one form or another, somewhere within TSR at the time. Also, I think that Abbey might have been able to (after much frustration) get *some* information about it, while not all, and not nearly enough for what she needed.
Your so right xlorep,
I don't have a date on my timeline. And it appeared on the web too far back for me to recall the date.
Anyone was a genius and scribbled a date on his print?
Very much possible the staff sent her an email with it, and she took the elements from it.
It can go the other way, but short of a board member with eideitic memory, we'll never know.
-sight-
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
I rather liked RaFoaDK interpretation that he had to fight the metamorphisis, and that he would eventually become a full dragon no matter what.
Yep, I'm planning on writing up the different Sorcerer-Monarchs, maybe even the Champions who didn't make it to becoming Sorcerer-Monarchs as well, and I'm going to try to convey that little detail in Hamanu's write-up. His automatic dragon development being sort of a "failsafe" that Rajaat put in place.
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
In the WC(DS box2) it is clearly mentionned that Rajaat promised his champions a way to become almost like gods. So if we follow this line, we can assume he already knew how to do so and maybe had already experimented the spells on some human subject. ( when you promise something, you usually have to be sure of the results.) But there is a problem to this theory.
He might have done just that. But once again, Dragon Metamorphosis does not equate to Champion, as a reminder.
Rajaat never had the intention on *giving* the world to the humans(champions) after the cleansing wars but rather he wanted to bring back Athas to a new Blue Age thus *giving* it back to the halflings of the Jagged Cliffs( and probably those serving him in the pristine tower before being sent to the black) And we all know Halfling cannot cast spells what so ever.(them being born before the discovery of magic and also because of how they persived the essence of life itselfs--last being my personnal thouth) That 's the main reason why Rajaat decided to choose humans as champions for his cleansing war and then,probably, transforming himself into the Champion of human annihilator(by transforming himself into a true dragon!!!!) once the world ready for a new Blue Age.
Actually, Hamanu was already picked to be the Champion against Humans, as well as the Champion to wipe out the other Champions. He has unique qualities that *no other champion* has, courtesy of Rajaat, like being unaffected (or maybe even healed) by the weapons that would normally harm a Champion, among other things.
If we follow canon material I think the promise was a lie. But that doesn't mean he didn't had discovered the dragon metamorphosis for himself. Maybe he finally found a way to change his own mental and physical nature-something he searched for centuries- Somewhere in the Pristine tower, where Rajaat did his researches in his last centuries of ruleship, could have been a library/lab with such information which Borys could have discovered before or after the rebellion(depending on the timeline you want to beleive.).
I think the Dragon Metamorphosis, like nearly everything else Rajaat gave to his followers, was a fabrication on his part. It is something he wouldn't do himself, because it's inherently flawed, and thus he can exploit it, while he doesn't reveal *how* he can exploit it to everyone else. Rajaat wasn't a Champion, nor a Dragon - he had done *other things* to himself, and is the closest thing to a God on Athas, IMHO.
Just a thought, and I dont thin
k Rajaat had the intention of helping his Champion without having an *exit* route for eventually get rid of them with ease. I think the Dragon metamorphosis were never ment for humans. But for Rajaat himself. He just made a mistake when he hinted a new way of *being* when he made his promise.
Exit route = Hamanu. Then he can kill Hamanu himself, since no single champion could ever match Rajaat (they had to use their numbers against him). Rajaat just rigged the deck, so to speak, and made Hamanu capable of cleaning up his other toys. If you recall - every time a Champion was killed by the other Champions, Hamanu was there, which seems to make me think that he's the only one who could kill the others, or that there's some other importance in that. Kalid-Ma, Sielba, Dregoth. He was even present when Sacha and Wyan were beheaded.
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
In the WC(DS box2) it is clearly mentionned that Rajaat promised his champions a way to become almost like gods. So if we follow this line, we can assume he already knew how to do so and maybe had already experimented the spells on some human subject. ( when you promise something, you usually have to be sure of the results.) But there is a problem to this theory.
Interesting, but as I read this, and it does ring a bell, it occurs to me that ''becoming as gods'' sounds less like attaining dragonhood as being able to grant divine spells, no? Rajaat could very well have known that a magic powerful enough could ''graft'' living vortexes of energy to the humans and allow them to grant this power to their followers.
I just went back into the WC and Rajaat hinted this to his champions after he made them their champions. From what he says, he never initiated the dragon metamorphosis, he simply stated that they could become as gods with their magics and psionics. That could refer to becoming a dragon (and is supported by preceding texts stating that Rajaat wanted humans because he could transform them into beings of dark power, though that could conceivably simply be Champions) or even to connection with the vortexes.
Also, by reading this, I see that champion powers are detailed after all. They are basically Immortality (handy when you have to wage war for some hundred years) and the ability to drain the life of any living being, and not simply plants.
Hmm... this is becoming clearer for me...
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Yep, I'm planning on writing up the different Sorcerer-Monarchs, maybe even the Champions who didn't make it to becoming Sorcerer-Monarchs as well, and I'm going to try to convey that little detail in Hamanu's write-up. His automatic dragon development being sort of a "failsafe" that Rajaat put in place.
Just don't touch Irikos, hehe.
He's mine precious...
Or at least wait till I do him, which should be soon, and then you can base yours off mine if you don't like it, hehe
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Actually, Hamanu was already picked to be the Champion against Humans, as well as the Champion to wipe out the other Champions. He has unique qualities that *no other champion* has, courtesy of Rajaat, like being unaffected (or maybe even healed) by the weapons that would normally harm a Champion, among other things.
Minus the Scorcher, that can hurt him, heh.
Might be the reason he chucked it, among it being able to wipe out Dregoth pretty easily.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
I just went back into the WC and Rajaat hinted this to his champions after he made them their champions. From what he says, he never initiated the dragon metamorphosis, he simply stated that they could become as gods with their magics and psionics. That could refer to becoming a dragon (and is supported by preceding texts stating that Rajaat wanted humans because he could transform them into beings of dark power, though that could conceivably simply be Champions) or even to connection with the vortexes.
Yeah, so maybe it was Borys who got the whole dragon metamorphisis going along with the help of the sun and the dark lens.
But yea, the Scorcher could hurt him. The other swords made by Rajaat couldn't tho (and I think that "dragon bane" weapons *heal* 2d8 HP rather than damage an extra 2d8, making them almost useless against him).
I like that a bit less though, and it does contradict the idea a few of us had that Kalak could have participated in the rebellion and had been given the ability to grant spells, but was not a dragon.
With the few contradicions that there seems to be, I think I'll choose to read this as Borys giving the knowledge and means for all champions to become dragon kings, but only he was truly transformed, at this point, at least.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
If you recall - every time a Champion was killed by the other Champions, Hamanu was there, which seems to make me think that he's the only one who could kill the others, or that there's some other importance in that. Kalid-Ma, Sielba, Dregoth. He was even present when Sacha and Wyan were beheaded.
I don't like the option: «It wasn't the truth, just was the way Hamanu saw it»
But in this case it seems to actually be appropriate.
Each time a champion was killed, Hamanu was there and wanting to kill them. Maybe he never guessed they died because he was present...
"My whims had become sorcery", kinda take a whole new perspective.
I second your idea, xlorep. :D
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
I like that a bit less though, and it does contradict the idea a few of us had that Kalak could have participated in the rebellion and had been given the ability to grant spells, but was not a dragon.
Doesn't change a thing IMO.
Borys was using the Dark Lens, he could have been able to filter it to give Kalak templar spell granting power and the rest starting them on their way to dragons along with that ability.
Anything is possible when an artifact comes into play.
Borys, Hamanu, Irikos: Psychic Warrior/Wizard(defiler)
Depending on how the Wilder class works out, I was thinking:
Daskinor, Oronis(?): Wilder/Wizard(defiler) (Wilder/Wizard(preserver) later for Oronis)
The rest: Psion(varies)/Wizard(defiler)
I was thinking that the wild, chaotic ways of Daskinor seems to fit with (at least the initial writeup of) the Wilder class, and maybe even Oronis (actually having emotions being the basis of one's psionic power could lead to a sense of regret for past deeds). I dunno, I will still have to see how the classes work out in the new PsiHB...
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
With the preview of the Wilder up on the WotC site,
Yeah, liking this class, though clearly they got the idea from Wheel of Time.
). Compared with the timelines, the sequence seems to go like this:1) Rajaat discovers magic, both preserving and defiling.
2) Rajaat teaches magic to various students. He selects a group of humans and teaches them defiling magic. He watches them to see if any are powerful psions because his ultimate plan requires beings who can combine magic and psionics in order to tranform into a being of dark power. He is clearly looking for those who will be able to become dragons. He does not reveal the metamorphosis to them.
3) Rajaat sends all but 15 students away. Kalak is probably among those dismissed but may already possess the rudiments of defiling psionics. Rajaat uses the lens and the tower to make these 15 into Champions. (Troy has stated that there were more, however...) As Champions, they are immortal and can draw life energy from living beings using obsidian orbs. He still does nto reveal the metamorphosis to them.
4) Rajaat hints that, through sorcery and psionics, the Champions can become as gods. He is clearly referring to the dragon metamorphosis here, not the templar spells as these do not require sorcery or psionics, but rather an elemental vortex. (Note that Rajaat is probably planning for one Champion to become a full Dragon after the Cleansing Wars and act as the Champion of humans and eradicator if the other Champions. Too bad that this very plan ended up being used against him).
5) Cleansing Wars. Borys finds out what Rajaat is planning and leads the rebellion against him. Kalak may well be involved here, eager for payback.
6) Borys uses the lens to begin the transformation of the remaining Champions into dragons. The lens is explicitly used to power the initial metamorphosing spells which indicates that no Champion had yet begun the transformation process. It is also explicitly stated that the process simultaneously links the new dragons to the elemental vortices.
7) The lens transforms Borys into a full dragon. The rest is history.
OK, there ya go - my 2 ceramics. How does this tie in with the RaFoaDK stuff?
Originally posted by Kamelion
6) Borys uses the lens to begin the transformation of the remaining Champions into dragons. The lens is explicitly used to power the initial metamorphosing spells which indicates that no Champion had yet begun the transformation process. It is also explicitly stated that the process simultaneously links the new dragons to the elemental vortices.
I'll have to review the material again, I don't recall the dark lens being used explicitly to initiate the metamorphosis, but rather it was used to give access to the elemental vortices. I'm not saying it *couldn't* have been used to accomplish this, I just had always felt that Dregoth (and possibly a couple others) had initiated the metamorphosis already, which could explain how Dregoth is so much more powerful than the others (even in 2e, only Borys was near Dregoth's level [technically, he was above], and that was because Borys had the metamorphosis accelerated; the rest were somewhere between level 1 and level 5 dragons, while Dregoth was level 9).
OK, there ya go - my 2 ceramics. How does this tie in with the RaFoaDK stuff?
RaFoaDK has a few discrepencies with the timeline: The dragon metamorphosis is tied to the transformation into becoming a Champion, and is something the Champions all cannot avoid; Sacha & Wyan provide the spells to Kalak's Templars; The ability to grants spells is also tied directly to the transformation into becoming a Champion. These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
linking to the living elemental vortexs was entirely accidental, a mistake that cannont be replicated as those creatures (the living vortex's) are extinct, but thier link remains within the SK's. The creatures were attracted by the great magic being weaved, and linked to the SK's. Can't be done again... but maybe a way of stealing the link exists... doubtful, but worth a shot for any dragon or avignon that wants to grant spells.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I'll have to review the material again, I don't recall the dark lens being used explicitly to initiate the metamorphosis, but rather it was used to give access to the elemental vortices. I'm not saying it *couldn't* have been used to accomplish this, I just had always felt that Dregoth (and possibly a couple others) had initiated the metamorphosis already, which could explain how Dregoth is so much more powerful than the others (even in 2e, only Borys was near Dregoth's level [technically, he was above], and that was because Borys had the metamorphosis accelerated; the rest were somewhere between level 1 and level 5 dragons, while Dregoth was level 9).
RaFoaDK has a few discrepencies with the timeline: The dragon metamorphosis is tied to the transformation into becoming a Champion, and is something the Champions all cannot avoid; Sacha & Wyan provide the spells to Kalak's Templars; The ability to grants spells is also tied directly to the transformation into becoming a Champion. These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
. The 2e box dances around the subject of whether the elemental vortices were accidental or not but Dragon Kings is clear on this - they were mysteriously attracted by the interplay of elemental forces and grafted themselves to the sk's, who aren't even aware of their own existence. The only way it could have been intentional is if Borys knew about their existence. Can't see a reason for that passes occam's razor...Please explain
And yet, the Dragon descriptions in Defilers & Preservers, or Dragon Kings makes no mention or reference to the Dark Lens being required for the transformation. It might be required for the transformation to circumvent the spells.... hmm....
That's pretty much the impression I got. Borys used the lens to jump-start the transformations of the sk's en masse, bypassing all the spells and sacrifices etc.
Occam's Razor "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate" is a philosophy that states "plurality should not be posited without necessity." In other words, when considering a problem, the simplest solution is probably the correct one. One should not add additional elements to a situation just to create an explanation that is more comfortable than the truth.
Getting back to dragonhood and SKs. One thing that was part of the 2nd ed stuff was that only advanced beings could cast psionic enchantments. So are people carrrying that over by saying that only the advanced beings can cast epic spells?
A while ago I started trying to work out some rules that reflected this and also the idea (hinted at in some of the books, particularly Rise and Fall) that for Dragons at least, casting these epic spells hastened the transformation. My idea was that the ritual transformation spells were controlled transformations and so less painful and damaging to the dragon and as they advanced they could cast more (and more powerful) spells. If you didn't transform with the rituals then casting epic spells was still possible but potentially lethal to the caster. Rules-wise I don't know if limiting epic spells to advanced beings would upset the game balance but it was certainly part of the flavour of Dark Sun 2e that only by going through these transformations could one gain the power to cast such powerful spells.
Going by this, perhaps the rebel Champions had to be transformed into the first step of dragonhood so they could cast the spells to imprison Rajaat and Borys had to be accelerated to full dragonhood so that someone could cast the powerful spells to maintain the prison.
Just some thoughts.
Originally posted by Wintergreen
Speaking as a philosopher, I'd say the best way to express Occam's Razor is KISS (Keep it Simple.....)
Yea, that was rather popular when I was in the Army...
Getting back to dragonhood and SKs. One thing that was part of the 2nd ed stuff was that only advanced beings could cast psionic enchantments. So are people carrrying that over by saying that only the advanced beings can cast epic spells?
Actually, I have made Psionic Enchantments a bit differerent for my version of Advanced Beings - I made that the ability to blend psionics and magic together, to make it harder to resist, and also it allows any extra "spiffy" enhancements that the adv. being could make to magic, also apply to psionics (like Dragon Magic, for example). Basically, an Advanced Being who pays the appropriate power point cost for an equivalent-level power when casting a spell, or "spends" an appropriate spell slot for the equivalent level spell when using a power does a "psionic enchantment".
I haven't extended it to epic spells/powers yet, but it could easily be followed through, I just *really* don't like the epic spell system as it is written in the ELH. And it's not just me, but also all of my players, and over 80% of the players at my local RPG gaming store who play d20 games. The Epic Spellcasting system is pitiful, extremely unimpressive, as the spells that are shown could quite easily be matched or beat through non-epic spell means (through the correct feats), and those means are easier to attain than trying to make the blasted requirements or the Epic Spell. On top of that, most of the Epic Spells have too much of a penalty for what they can do.
Take the one which does 10d6 of damage for all 5 energy types, with a backlash of 10d6 to the caster (if memory serves). Most epic things have some sort of resistance or immunity to.... at least 2-3 energy types, so it's effectiveness really is between 20-30d6 damage, plus mosty epic creatures will make their reflex save, so actually it is 10-15d6 damage, while the caster gets hit for 10d6 damage. I'm sorry, but an empowered & maximized meteor swarm will beat that epic spell. Further, you could cast an empowered & maximized meteor swarm several levels before you could make the Spellcraft check for the afore-mentioned epic spell. My players object to *ever* using epic spellcasting. We had tried numeous times to make the system work, but it's just plain broken.
A while ago I started trying to work out some rules that reflected this and also the idea (hinted at in some of the books, particularly Rise and Fall) that for Dragons at least, casting these epic spells hastened the transformation. My idea was that the ritual transformation spells were controlled transformations and so less painful and damaging to the dragon and as they advanced they could cast more (and more powerful) spells. If you didn't transform with the rituals then casting epic spells was still possible but potentially lethal to the caster. Rules-wise I don't know if limiting epic spells to advanced beings would upset the game balance but it was certainly part of the flavour of Dark Sun 2e that only by going through these transformations could one gain the power to cast such powerful spells.
Check out my dragons & avangions. Each has: 4 epic spells (which I didn't use the same rules for making them as found in the ELH, an attempt to make the feat viable/useful), 4 templates (each applied after the casting of the spell), and 3 10-level PrC's (for the first 3 stages of both dragons & avangions). I don't have my final stage for Avangions up yet, but it will be soon. Follow the link to my website, or the links I have listed in the threads entitled "DarkHelm's __________".
Going by this, perhaps the rebel Champions had to be transformed into the first step of dragonhood so they could cast the spells to imprison Rajaat and Borys had to be accelerated to full dragonhood so that someone could cast the powerful spells to maintain the prison.
Just some thoughts.
I see where you're going with that.... it does lend credence to the idea, I'll admit.
Originally posted by Kamelion
That's pretty much the impression I got. Borys used the lens to jump-start the transformations of the sk's en masse, bypassing all the spells and sacrifices etc.
Occam's Razor "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate" is a philosophy that states "plurality should not be posited without necessity." In other words, when considering a problem, the simplest solution is probably the correct one. One should not add additional elements to a situation just to create an explanation that is more comfortable than the truth.
Originally posted by Kamelion
5) Cleansing Wars. Borys finds out what Rajaat is planning and leads the rebellion against him. Kalak may well be involved here, eager for payback.
Correction:
Manu finds out what Rajaat is planning and tells Borys, Borys then leads a rebellion against Rajaat.
Originally posted by Kamelion
4) Rajaat hints that, through sorcery and psionics, the Champions can become as gods. He is clearly referring to the dragon metamorphosis here, not the templar spells as these do not require sorcery or psionics, but rather an elemental vortex. (Note that Rajaat is probably planning for one Champion to become a full Dragon after the Cleansing Wars and act as the Champion of humans and eradicator if the other Champions. Too bad that this very plan ended up being used against him).
Here, I'd like to suggest another path, which doesn't really differ from the text, but does differ from the intention of the text, I believe.
I would modify to above by saying that the author probably meant that Rajaat was referring to Dragon Metamorphosis. However, I believe that the Vortex Grafting can actually make more sense. Here's why:
1- Becoming a Dragon and becoming as a God are two entirely different things. Becoming very powerful, yes, becoming as a god, no. Dragons are powerful, but they mostly are so because of the awesome magical and psionic power the champions already posessed. Take those away, and dragons would be only slightly more powerful than drakes.
2- Gods are of course defined as very powerful, but I believe one of the defining quality of a god is having worshipers. The ability to grant divine spells is mighty close to godhood. Perhaps Rajaat did not refer to being as a god in power, but rather in status.
3- I also believe that the grafting of the elemental vortices was not intended by the champions, nor was it necessarily by Rajaat. However, though it was perhaps accidental, it could also more accurately be described as a side-effect. The champions were probably not aware of this, hence the accidental nature of the event, but I see no reason why Rajaat would not know that channelling anough magical and psionic power into the dark lens could have this side effect on the channellers. If so, Rajaat knew his champions could become as gods, under the right circumstances.
4- With that in mind, grafting the elemental vortices did require an enormous amount of magical and psionic energy, as this was required to attract the vortex.
5- Finally, there is an inherent logic behind Rajaat wanting to prevent his champions from granting spells to their templars, but a flaw in staying their dragon metamorphosis. Rajaat wanted his champions to be as powerful as they could, and if he could have transformed them into dragons, he would probably have done so, in roder for them to be even more effective as warlords.
However, having them grant spells to followers could very well become a threat. Clearly, Rajaat was aware of the threat of spellcasters. He taught defiling to a select few, and sent many away before making his champions. Also, before the cleansing wars, he had his champions hunt down and decimate the ranks of the preservers. Now, giving the champions the opportunity to create massive ranks of spellcasters amongst the humans was a clear problem to him, as when he would turn on the humans, they would already percieve their champions as gods, and be loyal to them, and a single rogue champion could empower the whole of humanity as spellcasters.
6- One last reason: my personal preference. :D
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
I'll have to review the material again, I don't recall the dark lens being used explicitly to initiate the metamorphosis, but rather it was used to give access to the elemental vortices. I'm not saying it *couldn't* have been used to accomplish this, I just had always felt that Dregoth (and possibly a couple others) had initiated the metamorphosis already, which could explain how Dregoth is so much more powerful than the others (even in 2e, only Borys was near Dregoth's level [technically, he was above], and that was because Borys had the metamorphosis accelerated; the rest were somewhere between level 1 and level 5 dragons, while Dregoth was level 9).
Well, you could say that none of them save Dregoth was into the metamorphisis and what Borys did with the Dark Lens just added another stage or two to Dregoth while it started the others on their way to metamorphosis.
Dregoth being the cunning guy that he is, found it out somehow, could probably add Hamanu to this list with Dregoth as well.
Just my 2cps.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Correction:
Manu finds out what Rajaat is planning and tells Borys, Borys then leads a rebellion against Rajaat.
Oh yeah, so he did. Cheers
. Haven't read Rise and Fall so my knowledge of that one is very third hand. I use a highly warped version of the backstory for my own DS games that features the dragon metamorphosis as somehow being linked to the concept of something like a Sleeping Deep Dragon (from old Monstrous Mythology entry on Io). But I digress shamelessly...Thanks for the comments on the ideas I've been throwing out.
I'm aware of the stuff you've been doing for advanced beings and so on but unfortunately haven't had a chance or the time to look through it properly yet so apologies for not being able to refer directly to it. Plus I just wanted to get straight on what's canon and what has been added by others before really getting on to hard rules.
I have to admit that I agree with you on the Epic spellcasting as it stands. Does seem to me to be a missed opportunity to create something really good. What you suggest for the dragon magic etc sounds a lot more interesting so I'll definitely have to check it out before too long.
Anyway, I'm glad this thread has developed the way it has as it's actually got me thinking about Dark Sun stuff again so thanks to you all!
But I find it quite interesting :D
Just to be philosophically pedantic, it originates with William of Occam (or Ockham) a 14th century English monk.
Sorry! :embarrass
Originally posted by Wintergreen
"Cheers - but don't thank me. Thank Mr. Occam. He made exceedingly good shaving gear "
Just to be philosophically pedantic, it originates with William of Occam (or Ockham) a 14th century English monk.
Sorry! :embarrass
LOL - I know, Wintergreen :D
It's a joke about razors. Philosophers...
Originally posted by Wintergreen
Darkhelm,
Thanks for the comments on the ideas I've been throwing out.
I'm aware of the stuff you've been doing for advanced beings and so on but unfortunately haven't had a chance or the time to look through it properly yet so apologies for not being able to refer directly to it. Plus I just wanted to get straight on what's canon and what has been added by others before really getting on to hard rules.
That, in and of itself, is a monumentous undertaking.... good luck!
I have to admit that I agree with you on the Epic spellcasting as it stands. Does seem to me to be a missed opportunity to create something really good. What you suggest for the dragon magic etc sounds a lot more interesting so I'll definitely have to check it out before too long.
No problem, I'm formulating my Avangion Magic rules currently.... don't have them up yet, but will soon.
Anyway, I'm glad this thread has developed the way it has as it's actually got me thinking about Dark Sun stuff again so thanks to you all!
Cool.
It's a joke about razors. Philosophers..."
Yeah, sorry Kamelion. The 'pedantic philosopher' comment's actually an old in-joke that I shouldn't have brought up. But as you say...Philosophers
We're a sad breed at times.So, back to the topic of Avangions I've looked through Dragon Kings and Defilers & Preservers, can anybody tell me if there is any other info in any of the modules? I'm guessing maybe but I don't want to wade through all the modules to find just one or two lines or a 'see Dragon Kings comment' that doesn't add anything.
Originally posted by Wintergreen
"LOL - I know, Wintergreen
It's a joke about razors. Philosophers..."
Yeah, sorry Kamelion. The 'pedantic philosopher' comment's actually an old in-joke that I shouldn't have brought up. But as you say...Philosophers
So, back to the topic of Avangions I've looked through Dragon Kings and Defilers & Preservers, can anybody tell me if there is any other info in any of the modules? I'm guessing maybe but I don't want to wade through all the modules to find just one or two lines or a 'see Dragon Kings comment' that doesn't add anything.
Heh - no worries Wintergreen. I'm only poking fun at philosophers because my girlfriend is one
Ah, the happy hours we while away together laughing about that wacky Schopenhauer and deconstructing Kant's theories of Things In Themselves. It's a zany, rock'n'roll lifestyle, let me tell you :D Umm, as for avangions, "Arcane Shadows" springs to mind, but the details in there are largely fluff. Still, you can infer a bit from the descritpions of Korgunard's transformation ceremony. And I suppose there should be something in the rules to reflect what happens to Korgunard when he gets whacked on the head (the whole "I'm in a trance but here's a nice dream to confuse you in the meantime" thing...)
Korgunard is in Dragon's Crown too, but I don't think we learn anything about him in that except that he tastes good...
Rafernard (the fake avangion in Forest Maker) is, well, fake - dunno if there's anything useful there...
Thanks for the rundown on the scenarios - I was feeling apprehensive about wading through Dragon's Crown and now I can leave it until I fancy running the module.
So anybody else fancy having a go at coming up with an epic spellcasting system of psionic enchantments for Dark Sun. 'Cos there's got to be a better alternative to the offical epic spell rules? I'm thinking if a few of us try to get the fluff descriptions of the process of casting psionic enchantments and their requirements all straight and agreed upon that it then wouldn't be too difficult to come up with crunchy rules to simulate that.
I want to keep discussing this though, want to see if we can at least iron out all the champion inconsistencies, even if we have to rewrite history a little or say it was rewritten and the old was hidden.