Okay. The idea has merit, and I love the idea of playing a deity-less divine spellcaster, after the fiascos I've had with clerics and druids.
However. The class... has some mechanical problems.
First, it doesn't state what kind of gold this class starts out with. Or whether mystics can or can't cast spells of an alignment descriptor opposed to their own. Not too big of a problem.
But, anyway, Mystics cast like a divine sorceror. This, presumably, means that they get access to a bigger spell margin but trade off for it by being able to cast from a smaller selection and get access to them a level later.
WTF?
I don't see how this is an advantage. Clerics already cast a huge number of spells per day, being only slightly behind the sorceror. Furthermore, they get to trade out spell slots for healing and have really long-duration spells; also, an OMG cleric advantage (casting all your spells extended then reloading on your spells) becomes kinda pooh with a small spell selection list.
Clerical spellcasting isn't like wizardly ones; there's a good reason the cleric has access to the entire list per spell preparation period. Here are some GREAT spells an 11th-level cleric can choose from for 5th and 6th levels.
Commune, Greater Command, Flame Strike, Disrupting Weapon, Plane Shift, friggin' Raise Dead, Righteous Might, Scrying, Slay Living, Spell Resistance, Symbol of Pain and Sleep, True Seeing, and Wall of Stone for 5th level.
Animate Objects, Anti-life shell, Blade Barrier, Greater Dispel Magic, Find the Path, Forbiddance, Quest, Harm, Heal, Heroes' Feat, Planar Ally, Symbol of Fear and Persuasion, Undeath to Death, and Word of Recall.
A 10th level mystic can choose 2 5th level spells and 1 6th level spell from that list. Some of the really good spells suck when used generically (like Raise Dead, Plane Shift, Word of Recall, Wall of Stone, and Heroes' Feast).
I can't imagine losing access to another domain, heavy armor proficiency, and turning undead for this. It's too bad, because the idea is REALLY cool, and my alternative (playing a cleric of Branchala) is a distant second. What gives?
Personally, I think the class is nifty, especially since your character is somewhat defined by the domain he chooses.
And, if you want another domain, take the Citadel Mystic prestige class in Age of Mortals!
I haven't had a chance to check out the setting yet (the person in my group who made the purchase is hoarding it and in love with it apparently) but when I do I'll comment further.
Think about the role the mystic fills, though. It is the divine spellcaster of the Age of Mortals, and works in a similar fashion with the sorcerer. As the PHB sorcerer was chosen to represent the Age of Mortals sorcerer, they would naturally create a spellcasting class that works in similar fashion.
My newbieness is really showing here.
I don't 'get' the idea of balance behind the class. I mean, 9th level is an OMG level for clerics. You get access plane shift, wall of stone, slay living, raise dead, and righteous might. Yet if I had to cast only one of these spells (plus a domain one, which may or may not be good) for an entire level, I don't know what I'd do.
If I played a cleric in another setting and didn't have access to wall of stone when the party wanted to build a HQ, or raise dead when someone died, or plane shift to get our butts out of the frying pan (it also makes an effective save-or-die), or just didn't have a flame strike to participate in ranged combat, my party would flay me alive! If someone dies with a cleric, it's no big deal. At most, they wait one day, the cleric spends a spell slot to resurrect, and the cleric goes back to his old selection with no loss in versatility.
If someone dies in a party with a mystic, not only will they have to wait for another level for a mystic to get access to resurrection magic at all, but if the mystic decides to pick up raise dead, that's an incredible loss in versatility. I can think of better things to do with my 5th level spell slots when no one needs bringing back from the dead than casting this spell again.
Also, there's no mention of whether mystics get to spontaneous swap out spells for cures (another disadvantage, sigh) and presumably they're subject to the metamagic on the fly restriction of spontaneous spellcasters--which includes quicken spell, the best core cleric metamagic feat.
Spontaneous magic at the cost of versatility is no big deal for arcane spellcasters, but it's a huge one for divine spellcasters. I just wish they would've ramped up the whole spells known table, since clerics and druids get access to the entire list at any level.
Originally posted by Lago AM3P
My newbieness is really showing here.
Also, there's no mention of whether mystics get to spontaneous swap out spells for cures (another disadvantage, sigh)
Disadvantage? I think you are a little confused on it. The Mystic has no need to swap out spells for spontaneous heals....all their spells are spontaneous.
Disadvantage? I think you are a little confused on it. The Mystic has no need to swap out spells for spontaneous heals....all their spells are spontaneous.
To do that, one of their spells known have to be a cure spell, which is only another kick in the pazooka for a person with a limited spells known list.
The mystic is an excellent class. It's incredibly potent if you direct the class in a certain way. It doesn't have to be the healer in the party - it's a walking domain, in essence. You can create a mystic with a selection of spells that enable him to fill any role in the group you like, which is quite a bonus.
It's not a replacement cleric in many ways, so it shouldn't be used as one in eras where clerics exist.
Cheers,
Cam
I guess it'd have merit if you did things like pick up the Contemplative PrC or Divine Disciple PrC or soforth. Hmmm.
Looks like I'll be picking up wands of cure light wounds and packing up on the scrolls. The alteration domain seems rather interesting, in fact.
Also: Where is this Mystic PrC I hear of? Is it on the web or in a splat book or what?
Originally posted by Lago AM3P
Also: Where is this Mystic PrC I hear of? Is it on the web or in a splat book or what?
The Citadel Mystic (at least I think it's called that) is in the Age of Mortals book. That's all I know.
Originally posted by talinthas
if you want to call a hardback companion thats just as big as the DLCS a splat book, then yeah, its in a splat book =)
It's kinda like calling the Epic Level Handbook a splat book, it just doesn't work.
The mystic is actually a pretty powerful class, especially with the right metamagic feats. The neat thing is,if you have a healing spell at each spell level(which is actually somewhat stupid of an idea) that leaves plenty of room for buffs and attacks. The citadel mystic increases versatility quite a bit (much more so than the Academy Sorceror does to a sorceror).
But... but... that's not even out yet! How is it possible that you have information on what looks like it is going to become my favorite class yet all indications prove--OH MY GOD I AM SO EXCITED THAT I HAVE TURNED GREEN AND QUADRUPLED IN MASS!
GRRRR! E-HULK MUST HAVE SOURCEBOOKS ON INTERESTING SETTING! FUNGAH!
You can get a signed copy of the Age of Mortals off of www.margaretweis.com (I got my DLCS and AoM from there)
btw, your nick has AM3P. play much DDR?
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
One thing doesn't seem right about the Mystic. If their power is supposed to come from within themselves, then shouldn't their spellcasting stat be Charisma instead of Wisdom?
If that were true, then the 3.5 Assassin (who casts spells just like bards and sorcerers) would have their spellcasting tied to their Charisma. It's still tied to their intelligence. Go figure.
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
But the assassin learns his spells from an external source, unlike the mystic, who casts from her very soul. Just because the assassin casts spontaneously, it doesn't mean his spellcasting stat should be Charisma.
Faith is typically the realm of the Wisdom ability score. Charisma is the realm of sorcerers, even the ones in Dragonlance, because they are imposing their will on the ambient magic of the world, an active effort which draws on Charisma. Wisdom's more passive and reflects that the mystic has an insight into the nature of ambient life magic, the power which is inherent within their soul and those of others.
There's merit in using Intelligence for the sorcerer's spellcasting ability score, since it was Reason in the SAGA system (the analogue to Intelligence) but being smart hasn't really been a prerequisite for sorcerers in DL. It's helpful, but by no means any indicator of skill at shaping wild magic.
Cheers,
Cam
So, we see that Palin was an accomplished WoHS and became one of the most powerful and versatile Sorcerers; that tells us in rulespeak that he has high Int and high Cha.
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
But the assassin learns his spells from an external source, unlike the mystic, who casts from her very soul. Just because the assassin casts spontaneously, it doesn't mean his spellcasting stat should be Charisma.
Where'd you see that?
Nowhere in that description does it state that assassins learn their spells from an external source. The assassin spell description explicitly states that assassins cast spells just like bards do. When we turn to the bard description, it quite succinctly states that:
A bard's magic comes from the heart.
From the heart? You could substitute bard in the above quote with Mystic and it'd sound like a perfect fit. Only problem is that the Assassin is about the only class/prestige class I know of that casts magic from "the heart", and yet the heart is in the mind (i.e. the Intelligence stat controlling spellcasting power).
Originally posted by The White Sorcerer
The only similarity between an assassin's and a bard's spellcasting is the mechanic. That's what "just like a bard" means.
Like I explained earlier, that leads to the inference that assassins cast arcane spells naturally, like the bard, and the sorcerer. Which leads to a conclusion that their spells should be based on Charisma, since all other Intelligence-based arcane spellcasting classes cast spells from spellbooks like Wizards.
Your response still doesn't answer the question of where you got the idea that assassins learn their spells from an external source.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Iltharanos....read the post above yours....In 3.0 assassins used spellbooks. Hence the Intelligence score is their relevant ability modifier....Intelligence still is because...well....I don't know....but by Sargonnas it should be...There are too many casters who use charisma for their relevant ability....it's about time Intelligence was used again....as a matter of fact, I am kinda peeved that the assassin was given spontaneous casting. I liked the idea of a carefully crafted hit, casing the house to learn the target's schedule...finding an easy way to get in before they get home, prepare just the right spells beforehand.....thwack....bolt in the lord mayor's head.
I am aware of that. Unless I'm mistaken, so is White Sorcerer, as indicated by his other post:
But the assassin learns his spells from an external source, unlike the mystic, who casts from her very soul. Just because the assassin casts spontaneously, it doesn't mean his spellcasting stat should be Charisma.
My question is where he got the idea (in D&D 3.5) that assassins learn their spells from external sources. If we were talking about 3.0 assassins, then the answer is obvious.
Do you think the sorcerer is useless too, because Wizard exists? Because, that is essentially how you are coming across about Cleric vs. Mystic.
A Mystic is a VERY flexible and powerful class. You CAN turn and rebuke, by the way, if you take the proper domain (check out the NECROMANCY and SUN domains in DLCS, pg.103-104). This also opens up DoF feats that utilize turning. Again, flexible.
The Mystic can do Silent Spell, Still Spell (etc) without preparing that ahead of time - this is a HUGE advantage over Cleric. A Mystic can KNOW one or two attacks spells and HEIGHTEN them to increase the DC (rather than picking up higher damaging "spells known"). Again, flexible.
The Mystic (and only the Mystic) can take the ALTERATION domain to gain many useful spells unavailable to Cleric as a single domain set... including Polymorph & Shapechage to name a couple. There are a few other choice "mystic only" domains with neat spells unavailable to cleric as well.
Mystic can UNLEARN spells as they advance, great for things that are duplicative, such as the various restoration and cure spells. You can end up KNOWing only one of them if you want, without having to give up precious known spells to know them all. This pretty much deals with your concern that you have to give up precious spells known, in my opinion.
Mystic can use lower spells in higher spell slots without preparation. Cast all your spells per day as Shield of Faith if you feel like it. Even cooler with metamagic feats. Again, much more flexible than Cleric.
As for your comment on 10th Mystic, he actually knows 2+d (4th level) and 1+d (5th level) level spells. That's 3/2, not 2/1. Just pointing it out, since not everyone would select the spells in your short list example.
As for heavy armor proficiency, if you REALLY want, take the feat. OR, you can get that nifty dragonmetal armor, which makes HVY armor into MED armor. As for turning, as I mentioned above, take SUN domain.
As for a reason why Mystics can cast like they do... read the DLCS. There are numerous sections about it throughout the book (though you do have to hunt a bit to find it all). In summary, people turned inward when the deities were gone. Some good reading about it: pg.272-273, 99-101,
The Mystic has its advantages - thus, the slower spell progression. It's a small price to pay for the flexibility you gain. The Mystic has a place in the game, just like a bard or sorcerer that has to pick "spells known." Play it - you'll see.
If you'd rather have faster spell progression and access to all divine spells, play a Cleric.
In addition, domain spells are treated just like spells known, and can be cast multiple times per day.
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
also, out of the four spellcasting classes, only mystics don't suffer ANY loss when taking a spellcasting PrC. Wizards give up bonus feats, both Wizards and Sorcerors loose advanced familiar benefits, and clerics loose greater ability to turn undead. As a mystic's only benefits is spells and the single domain power (which uses character level anyhow, IIRC), they give up NOTHING when taking on a PrC, and gain everything. Mystics rock.
Some domains are based on cleric (mystic) level.
Besides it is poor class design to have no incentive not to get into a PrC ASAP.
sorceror vs. wizard
greater weapon proficiency (all simple weapons)
fewer class skills
(sample 4th level)
spells per day: 6|7/4
spells known: 6|3/1
vs wizard specialist
spells per day: 5|5/4
spells known: all|8/4 (for free)
wizards: ability to leave empty slots & memorize during day
sorceror: may cast meta-magic spells, but this takes a full round action.
mystic vs. cleric
one less class skill
one less armor proficiency (no heavy armor)
very few able to turn anything (only one domain + elemental domains)
slower spell progression
(sample 4th level)
spells per day: 6|7/4
spells known: 6|4/2
vs. cleric
spells per day: 5|4/3
spells known: ALL
The wizard reigns supreme in flexibility, because he can leave a slot open and memorize any non-combat spell he needs when the situation demands it. Nothing beats working on a spell for ten minutes and making your party bored in the process *grin*
The sorceror posesses raw power but poor selection, able to cast six lightning bolts if the situation demands it while possibly being unable to cast the one fireball the wizard has memorized when a blue dragon attacks. This is balanced in that the wizard can't memorize, or know, every spell in the book.
The cleric is unable to memorize spells after their initial prayer memorization, but still knows every spell for free. So in this sense the mystic is more flexible, assuming they have the right spell at hand. Worse, clerics can already spontaneously cast all the healing spells, which will be more than a mystic can do if they design their character intelligently - a mystic has to invest a valuable slot to know how to heal someone.
Mystics can cast their domain spells all day long, their primary advantage. In essence, they can combine healing spell slots with arcane type spell slots. This is their raw power.
Unfortunately they have far more drawbacks than in the sorceror/wizard comparison.
Its not much of a balance difference, but it is there. Mystics receive no compensation for the fact very few of them will be able to turn, when every cleric can do that, and they receive fewer class benefits than in the sorceror/wizard comparison.
That said my first character will be a mystic with the fire domain. Why mystic? Because they are great characters for roleplaying!
Seriously, I can't imagine forgoing raise dead or plane shift or wall of stone when I need it (which a Mystic won't be able to have JUST THESE THREE SPELLS until the very end) to be able to cast only a spell out of the vast and versatile clerical list an extra time per day. That's a diminishing return--sorcerors at the very end get 2 extra spells over a non-specialist wizard, but a mystic only gets 1 extra, and gets it later.
They way the delayed access to spells work out is that Mystics almost always have the exact same number of the cleric's highest-level spell. For example, at level 10, they get 3 fifth level spells. That's the same as a cleric. By the time the mystic catches up, the cleric has THREE highest level spell slots (depending on how your wisdom bonus works out) of that level that the Mystic won't get for the next level. And then they'll be equal for even levels, then the cleric will pull ahead on odd levels. Clerics get so many spells per level that mystic's advantage just doesn't make up for losing access to the entire spell list as once. As said, there are spells that you definitely want to cast but would be a moron for restricting yourself to casting 4 or 5 times a day. I like flame strike, but if I had to cast this spell 4 times a day while the cleric was walking around with righteous might, raise dead, plane shift, AND flame strike (and had the option of being able to prepare flame strike 4 times if that's what he really wanted), I'd shoot myself.
Again, I can't actually see giving up heavy armor proficiency, spontaneous healing, turning, an extra domain, the godliness that are extended clerical buffs into the next day (which a mystic can't keep up with because of his limited spell list), more use out of spell-completion items, getting a spell earlier, and the vast amount of versatility the clerical list provides for being able to cast a spell an extra time a day.
Seriously. A 10th-level cleric with the travel domain can prepare the godly plane shift/teleport combo, and still have two 5th-level spells left over along with being able to turn these spell slots into cures if needed. A mystic CAN'T do that without completely hamstringing himself for 3 or 4 levels and by then, the cleric has access to better spell combos. Thus, a mystic is less reliable to a party than a cleric.
I mean, it's a great class, and if the Citadel Mystic fixes these glaring flaws, I'll be happy. But I do know that, as-is, a cleric is a lot more reliable to the party than a cleric, and I play support classes. So, there you go.