Ship to Ship combat in 3E/D20 - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Ship to Ship combat in 3E/D20

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Aug 31, 2003 15:18:20 Hello All

Over the last two years I have tested a few systems to resolve ship to ship combat. I have found that each had it strengths and weakness and have wondered how others have handled ship to ship combat in 3e. I will bring up a few points that my players had with some of the systems used. I also would like to hear how other DMs have handled 3E spelljammer in their campaigns.

First system I tried is to have 50 or 100 yards to a hex/square... but the players being the smarmy people they are, stated that each hex/square would be a -15 or -30 to spot checks and that at a distance of even more then a few hexes/squares characters would not even be able to make their spot checks to see another ship let alone fire upon it. Another disadvantage to large hexes is that ships that move 1 hex per tactical speed rating or such are soooooo much faster then most critters; this is the one reason I have moved away from this system as once a ship decides to avoid combat with a slow moving critter the critter has little chance of catching a ship that moves 150 to 300 feet per tactical speed rating. About the only way to explain this away and allow critters that are slow moving to 'keep' up with ship is that it is caught up in the ships gravity field and is dragged along no matter what the ships tactical speed (this assumes the critter is smaller then the ship). One of the initial reasons I like the 50/100 yard hex/square system was that most ships can fit within such.

Another system I been working with is a variation on D20 Spelljammer with hexes instead of squares and each hex being 40 feet across (instead of the 30 feet to a square). The reason to use 40 feet was more to accommodate long distance spells that have 400 feet + 40 feet per level. This also made it easy to use fireballs as they have a 20 ft. radius (40 feet across the diameter) and the ships could be sectioned off into 40 feet sections. This system has seemed to serve me the best so far as many of the critters in space are able to keep up with the ship's tactical speed (ranging anywhere from 40 feet to 240 feet). Also few ships have a beam length more then 40 feet.

I have also done away with wildspace creatures having two different speeds (tactical/flight), their speeds the same be it in an atmosphere of a planet or that in wildspace during tactical speed combat and that being their flight speed. I am working it so that all creatures from my campaign having flight and are born in wildspace (such a star selkies and such) to be updated with 40 feet increment of flight (for easy of combat in space) if and when I finally decide to keep 40 per hex/square (which seems very likely).

I have since 2E spelljammer enjoyed hexes more then squares for combat and have continued to prefer hexes. Although squares when play tested worked just as well.
#2
old_sage
Sep 01, 2003 0:31:27 This certainly sounds interesting.

I like to use a multi-combination system of Dragonstar, Star Wars d20, and AeroTech. Surprisingly it works very well. I don't have time at the moment to go into specifics, so I'll try and post some of the points from my system tonight.
#3
jeleinen
Sep 01, 2003 3:44:31 I like the pre-revised Star Wars D20 ship combat system. I hear they ditched it in the revised version, which is unfortunate. It was a great, abstract system that worked really well.
#4
old_sage
Sep 01, 2003 9:27:45 I agree, at least to a degree. The combat system was good, but I prefer the revised version. It is more streamlined and allows for a greater degree of flexibility.

Anyway I have some notes to find on my combat system, so...
#5
jeleinen
Sep 02, 2003 0:26:11 Did they switch to a map based system? That's the exact opposite of what I want. I liked the idea of just keeping track of everything by position in relation to the PCs' ship. It was abstract and simple, yet it allowed for a lot of detail. No worrying about turning radius or counting squares/hexes for range. The only flaw of the system is that it really only works for one ship. If the PCs have multiples, then it starts to break down, but this is no big deal, because in Spelljammer, there's usually only ever one PC ship.
#6
ranger_reg
Sep 02, 2003 3:47:42 Which is why the OCR's abstract version is limited to something like a chase/pursuit.

But when it comes to Star Wars, it is about a lot of fighter crafts in many dogfights or in formation to attack the larger vessels. At least that is what it is to me, so a grid-based tactical combat rules is appropriate, which can also resolve chases.
#7
bigmac
Dec 16, 2003 23:31:27 This is a really interesting discussion you have going on here. With all due respect to the Star Wars d20 players (because I am a very big Star Wars fan) I don't think that Spelljammer combat and scifi combat can use similar systems.

Lets just remind ourselves that 2e Spelljammer movement is governed by the skill of the person on the helm and also the quality of the rest of the crew.

A spaceship as a technical device should be able to stop thrusting and flip onto its back with retro rockets. While a discussion of sci-fi starships should be going on I would suggest that it is in main done in a Star Wars thread. All we should be doing here is finding any good Star Wars ideas to steal for the fantasy 3e Spelljammer conversion.

If we have to create a rule system that works with other d20 products, I would much prefer a crossover with seabound ships combat or a Battlesystem/Spelljammer type of rule. It would be great to say: "forget rollplaying this week lets have a big Spelljammer war to decide the next part of the plot...right who wants to be the Scro?"

Now onto my main point. I think that your players are not going by the spirit of the rules when they point out the minuses to spot checks based on distance. If you look up at night you can see the Moon and the stars with the naked eye (unless you live in a light polution area). With binoculars or a trained eye I believe that you can actually pick out the International Space Station as it goes overhead.

The key thing here is that a extreme range sight at night is degraded by light polution, the colour of the object that you are looking at and contrast with the background.

I would suggest that any Spelljamming ship in wildspace would definately have deck lights (+ to spot) and usually would reflect light (+ to spot if you are between a ship and a sun, planet, moon or other object). Deliberately blackend ships, such as a pirate ship, would have a minus to spot under normal conditions but if they were between you and a light source they would cause a mini-eclipse that spread out away from the light source.

Metal hull plating and bright sails would also increase the risk of being spotted. To try to remain hidden spells, glass or ice hulls could be employed but these would be weak in combat.

However the big, big, big giveaway that there is someone in the area is that the ship will slow to tactical speed. Any good ship should have lookouts with spyglasses or improved vision that get on deck and have an area to scan as soon as the ship slows down.

Incomming missile fire would allow pluses to spot (and in my opinion a reroll for anyone who failed spot checks). Anything really bright like greek fire (aka alchemists fire) should either give an automatic spot check or a big bonus and a reroll.

Obviously, you don't want tons of modifiers, but I think that one of the clever people at Beyond the Moons or Shattered Fractine could knock up a play test version quiet easily.

If there is not already a Feat for it I would also propose a Lookout Feat available to experienced Spelljammer or Surface Ship crew that gives a large bonus to spot other ships or objects. (Surface crew should be given a penalty on the Feat bonus on Spelljammers until they gain a level in space, because they would instinctivly try to spot things in the gravity plane until they have been in space).

Having said all of the above, I do think that all the spot modifiers I have suggested and the many others that could be applied, should not apply to individual deck crew. This would give a situation where:

1) The Helmsman (or officer) shouts: "Ship ahoy, direction unknown!"

2) Any deck crew make spot checks.

3) A suprise ships combat round occurs, in case anyone wants to fire blind.

4) Normal combat rounds start and continue until either ship is out of tactical range or the crews both decide to be friendly.

If rules similar to this applied, people would spot things like ships flags and be calling for someone with Heraldry to tell them if the ship was friend or foe. In this way all those skills get to be used before (or during) combat.

Although I pointed out earlier that pirate ships could be painted black, don't forget that they might find it more successful to look friendly, by using stolen flags or disguised crew.

I think that this would turn the begining of all ships encounters into a "fight or flight" phase with many PCs and NPCs being involved in the decision.

I believe that one of the Spelljammer rule books sugests that if players fly around in ex-slaver ships like Mind-Flayer ships then they are likely to get attacked. Perhaps ships could be given a charisma rating to modify how NPC react to the sight of an unidentified ship of that type.

I would much rather play by a you CAN shoot but you won't know what you are shooting at yet rule than reduce the hexes until all combat is at close range.

Whatever is decided I would prefer ships combat rules to be separated from the "Spelljammer Player's Handbook conversion". So that begginer players can just read a Players Handbook type conversion PDF to get going with normal roleplaying.

I look forward to any comments that you have on my thoughts.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2003 15:18:20	Hello All Over the last two years I have tested a few systems to resolve ship to ship combat. I have found that each had it strengths and weakness and have wondered how others have handled ship to ship combat in 3e. I will bring up a few points that my players had with some of the systems used. I also would like to hear how other DMs have handled 3E spelljammer in their campaigns. First system I tried is to have 50 or 100 yards to a hex/square... but the players being the smarmy people they are, stated that each hex/square would be a -15 or -30 to spot checks and that at a distance of even more then a few hexes/squares characters would not even be able to make their spot checks to see another ship let alone fire upon it. Another disadvantage to large hexes is that ships that move 1 hex per tactical speed rating or such are soooooo much faster then most critters; this is the one reason I have moved away from this system as once a ship decides to avoid combat with a slow moving critter the critter has little chance of catching a ship that moves 150 to 300 feet per tactical speed rating. About the only way to explain this away and allow critters that are slow moving to 'keep' up with ship is that it is caught up in the ships gravity field and is dragged along no matter what the ships tactical speed (this assumes the critter is smaller then the ship). One of the initial reasons I like the 50/100 yard hex/square system was that most ships can fit within such. Another system I been working with is a variation on D20 Spelljammer with hexes instead of squares and each hex being 40 feet across (instead of the 30 feet to a square). The reason to use 40 feet was more to accommodate long distance spells that have 400 feet + 40 feet per level. This also made it easy to use fireballs as they have a 20 ft. radius (40 feet across the diameter) and the ships could be sectioned off into 40 feet sections. This system has seemed to serve me the best so far as many of the critters in space are able to keep up with the ship's tactical speed (ranging anywhere from 40 feet to 240 feet). Also few ships have a beam length more then 40 feet. I have also done away with wildspace creatures having two different speeds (tactical/flight), their speeds the same be it in an atmosphere of a planet or that in wildspace during tactical speed combat and that being their flight speed. I am working it so that all creatures from my campaign having flight and are born in wildspace (such a star selkies and such) to be updated with 40 feet increment of flight (for easy of combat in space) if and when I finally decide to keep 40 per hex/square (which seems very likely). I have since 2E spelljammer enjoyed hexes more then squares for combat and have continued to prefer hexes. Although squares when play tested worked just as well.
#2 old_sage Sep 01, 2003 0:31:27	This certainly sounds interesting. I like to use a multi-combination system of Dragonstar, Star Wars d20, and AeroTech. Surprisingly it works very well. I don't have time at the moment to go into specifics, so I'll try and post some of the points from my system tonight.
#3 jeleinen Sep 01, 2003 3:44:31	I like the pre-revised Star Wars D20 ship combat system. I hear they ditched it in the revised version, which is unfortunate. It was a great, abstract system that worked really well.
#4 old_sage Sep 01, 2003 9:27:45	I agree, at least to a degree. The combat system was good, but I prefer the revised version. It is more streamlined and allows for a greater degree of flexibility. Anyway I have some notes to find on my combat system, so...
#5 jeleinen Sep 02, 2003 0:26:11	Did they switch to a map based system? That's the exact opposite of what I want. I liked the idea of just keeping track of everything by position in relation to the PCs' ship. It was abstract and simple, yet it allowed for a lot of detail. No worrying about turning radius or counting squares/hexes for range. The only flaw of the system is that it really only works for one ship. If the PCs have multiples, then it starts to break down, but this is no big deal, because in Spelljammer, there's usually only ever one PC ship.
#6 ranger_reg Sep 02, 2003 3:47:42	Which is why the OCR's abstract version is limited to something like a chase/pursuit. But when it comes to Star Wars, it is about a lot of fighter crafts in many dogfights or in formation to attack the larger vessels. At least that is what it is to me, so a grid-based tactical combat rules is appropriate, which can also resolve chases.
#7 bigmac Dec 16, 2003 23:31:27	This is a really interesting discussion you have going on here. With all due respect to the Star Wars d20 players (because I am a very big Star Wars fan) I don't think that Spelljammer combat and scifi combat can use similar systems. Lets just remind ourselves that 2e Spelljammer movement is governed by the skill of the person on the helm and also the quality of the rest of the crew. A spaceship as a technical device should be able to stop thrusting and flip onto its back with retro rockets. While a discussion of sci-fi starships should be going on I would suggest that it is in main done in a Star Wars thread. All we should be doing here is finding any good Star Wars ideas to steal for the fantasy 3e Spelljammer conversion. If we have to create a rule system that works with other d20 products, I would much prefer a crossover with seabound ships combat or a Battlesystem/Spelljammer type of rule. It would be great to say: "forget rollplaying this week lets have a big Spelljammer war to decide the next part of the plot...right who wants to be the Scro?" Now onto my main point. I think that your players are not going by the spirit of the rules when they point out the minuses to spot checks based on distance. If you look up at night you can see the Moon and the stars with the naked eye (unless you live in a light polution area). With binoculars or a trained eye I believe that you can actually pick out the International Space Station as it goes overhead. The key thing here is that a extreme range sight at night is degraded by light polution, the colour of the object that you are looking at and contrast with the background. I would suggest that any Spelljamming ship in wildspace would definately have deck lights (+ to spot) and usually would reflect light (+ to spot if you are between a ship and a sun, planet, moon or other object). Deliberately blackend ships, such as a pirate ship, would have a minus to spot under normal conditions but if they were between you and a light source they would cause a mini-eclipse that spread out away from the light source. Metal hull plating and bright sails would also increase the risk of being spotted. To try to remain hidden spells, glass or ice hulls could be employed but these would be weak in combat. However the big, big, big giveaway that there is someone in the area is that the ship will slow to tactical speed. Any good ship should have lookouts with spyglasses or improved vision that get on deck and have an area to scan as soon as the ship slows down. Incomming missile fire would allow pluses to spot (and in my opinion a reroll for anyone who failed spot checks). Anything really bright like greek fire (aka alchemists fire) should either give an automatic spot check or a big bonus and a reroll. Obviously, you don't want tons of modifiers, but I think that one of the clever people at Beyond the Moons or Shattered Fractine could knock up a play test version quiet easily. If there is not already a Feat for it I would also propose a Lookout Feat available to experienced Spelljammer or Surface Ship crew that gives a large bonus to spot other ships or objects. (Surface crew should be given a penalty on the Feat bonus on Spelljammers until they gain a level in space, because they would instinctivly try to spot things in the gravity plane until they have been in space). Having said all of the above, I do think that all the spot modifiers I have suggested and the many others that could be applied, should not apply to individual deck crew. This would give a situation where: 1) The Helmsman (or officer) shouts: "Ship ahoy, direction unknown!" 2) Any deck crew make spot checks. 3) A suprise ships combat round occurs, in case anyone wants to fire blind. 4) Normal combat rounds start and continue until either ship is out of tactical range or the crews both decide to be friendly. If rules similar to this applied, people would spot things like ships flags and be calling for someone with Heraldry to tell them if the ship was friend or foe. In this way all those skills get to be used before (or during) combat. Although I pointed out earlier that pirate ships could be painted black, don't forget that they might find it more successful to look friendly, by using stolen flags or disguised crew. I think that this would turn the begining of all ships encounters into a "fight or flight" phase with many PCs and NPCs being involved in the decision. I believe that one of the Spelljammer rule books sugests that if players fly around in ex-slaver ships like Mind-Flayer ships then they are likely to get attacked. Perhaps ships could be given a charisma rating to modify how NPC react to the sight of an unidentified ship of that type. I would much rather play by a you CAN shoot but you won't know what you are shooting at yet rule than reduce the hexes until all combat is at close range. Whatever is decided I would prefer ships combat rules to be separated from the "Spelljammer Player's Handbook conversion". So that begginer players can just read a Players Handbook type conversion PDF to get going with normal roleplaying. I look forward to any comments that you have on my thoughts.