I feel bad not checking up on this, my core books aren't with me but if a atribute bonus to the main physical stats, such as Str, Con and Dex is awarded the to balance it there must be a larger negative awarded to the mental ones, Int, Wis and Cha. At only a +1 level adjustment for the mul for a +4 str, +2 con and _2 cha I belive is a large over look. i belive a better level adjustment for a mul would be a +3.
as for the hgalf gaint, i'm not sure. +8 to srt, 2 hd, bab +1, fort save +3 and only a +3 level adjustment??
i'll try to find in the DMG about level adjustment and reply but is anyone finds it first please jump on in.
oh Pg 171 dmg for the info on attribute adjustment and the what is thought as being equal, incase any body cared.
night!
so what do you think?
Well, at least you put some level of effort into your analysis. That's more than some do.
This would make the transition easier and since a +3 level adjustment character is actually a 4th level ECL it wouldn't fit into a balanced setting starting at 3rd level characters.
Using the Savage Species examples, a +3 level adjustment race would have 4 class levels written up to account for it.
1/2 giants & Thri kreen should advance as monster as per the savage species book. Also according to one post I read earlier in monte cooks arcana unearthed. he suggest that players be allowed to advance about 3 levels to fill out their characters racial scores & talents. Kreen would be quite easy to set up and could even be allowed to go on to the ECL 5 version that has basic psionics... Taking a look at the DS MC terrors beyond tyr they give the different items the older version of a thrikreen going up would have. a great base to work from. !/2 giants could start like an orge needing about 6 levels to reach full growth per say. that way all characters could start at ECL1.
also the aarakocra should have no ecl adjustment. and the follow weapon as martial weapons
weighted net, dart & long spear. I think a racial weapon would be cool for them as well. also they originally read more like rangers as their prefered class than clerics....
I am writing my list of ideas & suggestions to flesh out DS3 and get it back on track to its hardcore DS days. I'll put my idea article in a new post tonight.
grymnet
also the aarakocra should have no ecl adjustment. and the follow weapon as martial weapons . . .
Err . . . aarakocra can fly. Even without any other racial modifiers at all, this alone should be +1 LA, however they gain other additional benefits such as natural weaponry, special attack forms, slightly (-1 total) underbalanced ability scores, and a phobia. All in all, flying is very hard to weigh up against. The phobia and underbalanced ability scores alone may offset the flying for no LA, but the other benefits then are enough to bump it to +1.
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
There aren't any +3 Level Adjustment races for Athas in the Core rules. Both of the +3 ECL races have 2 HD already, and can be played without class levels at all (starting at 3rd level equivalent). They are actually +1 Level Adjustment races :D
Good point.
Also it’s a long rant but you wanted feed back
please see my comments at the bottom. My ideas earlier were mainly based on that yea; flying is great and all for Aarakocra. But really it’s not that big of a deal in the DS setting. When 3e came out and now 3.5e, we run into issues well is this fair or is that fair because the game system requires some kind of checks and balances. What suffers though are the campaign world and its FLUFF...
First off though…
What also is at issue and really affects the above statements we all have made is that it hasn't been stated in the Athas.org DS3(3.5e) rules...
1. What way do we do stats... the old school DS 4+4d4 or 3.5e 3d6?
2. What level do we start players out at? 1st or 3rd...(this would cause issues with half giants and thri-kreen as they need to start off at 4th level to be played (2hd +1 LA + 1 class level being a 1st level character for a half giant for example)
3. Giants not half giants need more str!!(desert etc all need a STR boost!!)
No one worried about this in 2e because DS was the system that BROKE THE MOLD 4 2E anyways. AND WE LOVED IT!!
DS 2e was about the HIGH STATS not the magic items. they are susposed to be very rare!!Looking at the old stat requirement chart(pg 3 of DSo edition) and using the 4+4d4(avg 12-13 base) up from 10-11 base in the 3e system. We all know that adjustments now begin @ 12 in 3e vs 14 for 2e. I have used the 2e avg in the DSo rules and drawn out stats from DSo for use in the 3e rules. Thus these numbers would be used with 3e or 3.5e rules.
Dwarf +1 St -1 De +4 Co -2Ch
Elf +4 De -2 Co +1 In -1 Wi
Half-elf +1 De -1 Co
Half-giant +8 St -2 De +4 Co -4 In -2 Wi -2 Ch
AARAKOCRA: does an Aarakocra is DS(not Faruen) really need to have a +1 ECL... looking at everything they have and when compared to the others races who have no ECL adjustment they are the same. Yes it can fly away but only @ 2x the elf can run 2x all week! So when bird boy sets down elf puts it into high gear and gets in his face. Dwarfs get the focus ability. A racial weapon for the Aarakocra would add flavor. Some kind of screaming javelin they could launch down @ the enemy... and rangers for the prefered class... go read the detail in the terrors beyond Tyr & DSr edition descriptions of them...not races of Faruen...
Reasons for no LA
Comparing the elf run to the flying not a major difference. Also the GM should really come down on Aarakocra players who don’t role-play their fears of confined places and big human cites with all their wall and buildings… they(Aarakocra players) should really fear going in those places where there is no easy route to run and escape.
DWARF: add back in the older stat adjustments to dex & STR (see below) a good show otherwise. My first character in DS was a dwarf. He died protecting his friends. This was his focus!!? He rested in peace
Reason why to return to the old stat line->The dwarfs that remain are the strongest out there also they are the parent of Muls(how do they get that str bonus!!) being a little boxy in shape they are not as agile thus -1 dex
ELF: add back in the older stat adjustments for INT and WIS (see below) reason why to return to the old stat line-> remember they are very smart +1 int in form of quick thinking. But though quick think they don’t always follow the wisest concepts(-1 wis)..
1/2 ELF: I think this was a solid interpolation though should they be as dexterous as the Elf parent? The old stat line of +1 DEX -1 con may be a better choice would make them 1/2 the elf their elf parent was... Are they the ones who are unable to communicate (-2 cha) or is it the others (elf’s & humans) who don't like the half breed moochers...it does state they are loners but that they also try in vain to get respect from elf’s and humans. That reads interaction to me....
1/2 GIANT: This begs to be set up as a monster class (make it like a 4 to 6 level path) ... Compare the 1/2 giant to a centaur (pg 161) or ogre (pg 189) (savage species). This would allow balance for games that start all characters at 1ST level. I say bump the strength to +10 as well, compare the size of a 1/2 giant to hill and stone giants and ogres.... the ogre is the one that matches best right now stat adjustment wise save the -4 WIS. (ECL +2 BTW for ogres if you are going to go start with 3rd level characters.) a better match is to drop the -4 to wisdom penalty or make it only -2 WIS -2 cha(size counts in the form a the physical presence-check out giants and orge mages) and make STR +10..2d8 hit dice in starting HPS which then I would say make them ECL+3.(2 HD + 1 LA) As I say compare them to ogres (who only weigh in @ 600 lbs STR 21) a better match for the description on page 8 of DS3 states they weigh in @ 1200 pounds closer to hill & stone giants (STR of 25 & 27 respect 1100 & 1500 pound 10.5 feet 12 feet) BTW all the giants as presented in the play test monsters need their STR moved up! Compare descriptions between old 2e athasian giants/fantasy giants and 3e athasian giants and fantasy giants... the most accurate of them right now is the beast headed giant. Plains giants need the same STR as titans and storm giants!! (39). Desert giants should come in around 29 to 31 based on their eleven like features giant sized...
reasons for LA 1 are
high str(+10) + high con(+4) (total +2) + sz for carrying capacity. +2 Nat Arm
I do not count the dark vision (most fantasy races have this) or the 40 ft movement as other races have a similar level item(racial weapons, save bonus’s etc)
Reason to limit it to 1.
-4 int -2 wis and -2 cha and -2 dex(total -10) , sz for ac reasons
Take a look at arcane unearthed (racial levels) ideas or even the savage species book for interesting way to allow players to play giants or thri-kreen as racial levels and once that process is complete they would move onto their “CLASS” what ever that might be. That savage species is an excellent resource but I am sure you read it. Look at the half orge as a sample for the half giant and just up it a bit.
These are ideas/suggestions that I have had after reading the rules you all have made. Much kudos BTW.
Another question. Did WOTC require the base races not to have any moods to stats like the original DS rules? I really would like to see the old stat mods for all the races placed back into there. Reason...
THE SEE BELOW STATEMENT!!!
I feel because the DS world should be harder. Tough critters require hard characters. Also it keeps with the DS flavor from the original DS in that this world is different from your GREYHAWK or FORGET ME REALMS... Keep in mind that magic items are limited in DS and metal ones even rarer so higher than normal stats are the norm to keep pace with the tougher critters. As a GM controlling the amount of magic items a character has in the DS setting makes the game. It’s not about your staff of wizardry or your floppy stick +5. It’s about the characters and what THEY can do. There will be many times in the DS game that characters will find themselves without equipment and they will need those stats to have a small and tiny chance at living
AARAKOCRA: does an Aarakocra is DS(not Faruen) really need to have a +1 ECL
In short - yes.
Flying is a big deal, even at normal speeds. The tactical options available when one is able to fly are enormous. The most dangerous creature on athas (bar dragons) was the air drake.
Flying and constant inertial barrier meant that the only way to harm the thing was magic and missle weapons (both with reductions due to the IB).
When flying you are able to out-range almost anything and the enemy is unable to physically reach you, max out on ranged combat abilities and suddenly you are quite deadly.
Second it is very difficult to surprise or ambush a party with a flying scout.
Then add armour, natural attacks etc and you have something that yes needs to be at least +1 ECL
In traditional settings flying is not that big a deal as many adventures are set in 'dungeons' whereas on Athas I had many if not most encounters above ground.
Half-Giants and Kreen
These are +1 LA but have 2 Monster 'levels'.
1/2G when starting with no monster HD rapidly outclass all the other races. Reach weapon and Great Cleave + psionics = lots of dead opponents.
Large and small sizes are balanced quite well advantages and disadvantages quite evenly balancing out.
The 1/2 Giant 'race'is not quite what you would expect given the 'fluff' from the DS setting. But hey if they did they would have to be +3 or 4 AL. What is there is a nice compromise.
I am playing 1/2 Giants and Kreen as 3 char levels and no class levels. (they are playable and effective at CL 3)
I do agree that Giants need a strength boost though.
You may wish to read Jon's FAQ
With stats being 3d6, this is because this is D&D and not just a d20 based game.
All stat adjustments in 3.5e are multiples of 2. In race creation when looking at stats if there is a +4 to a stat and it is not unbalanced with more penalties that bonuses then that race is at least +1 LA.
Elves
They are a little over powered right now. IMC I have modified the stat adjustments to double that in the PHB and raised the them to +1 LA. With all the extra stuff they get they are closer to +1/2 or +3/4 LA anyway and the +4 dex shoves them definately up there. Anyway I hate elves, one of my favourite things about DS was the way elves became one of the most hated PC races, nobody trusts them and half of the monsters (and PC races) want to kill/eat em :D.