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A replacement for the Mystic?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
iltharanos
Sep 02, 2003 1:55:40 I like the Mystic class. Spontaneous divine spellcasting seemed like a natural balance to the spontaneous arcane spellcasting of the sorcerer. Then I saw the Evangelist.

The Evangelist is in issue 311 of Dragon magazine and is one of several variant Cleric classes. It is a variant class in the same vein that an Illusionist is a variant Wizard. So what's the deal with the Evangelist?

An Evangelist is just like the Mystic (spontaneous spellcasting et al), except he gets any two domains at first level. Then another domain at 5th, then 10th, then 15th, and finally 20th. Yes, that's six domains by the time the Evangelist is 20th level. As with Mystics, the spells from these domains do not count toward the spells known by the Evangelist. Thus the 20th level Evangelist knows 45 more spells than his 20th level Mystic counterpart.

Perhaps the naysayers of the Mystic would be satisfied with the Evangelist's spellcasting prowess? ;) It's hard to beat six domains (plus all the domain granted powers they provide) and the potential to spontaneously cast 96 spells!
#2
Dragonhelm
Sep 02, 2003 9:09:29 Sounds suspiciously like my own rules on mystics on the Nexus. Hrm... ;)
#3
iltharanos
Sep 02, 2003 20:19:10
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Sounds suspiciously like my own rules on mystics on the Nexus. Hrm... ;)

Really? Now that is most interesting.
#4
iltharanos
Sep 04, 2003 21:36:36 I'm preparing to run a Dragonlance campaign and the topic of the Mystic came up. A fair number of people on this board think it's underpowered vis a vis the Cleric. Do you all think the Evangelist (as a replacement for the Mystic) would be on par with the Cleric, or would the 6 domains be too powerful compared to a Cleric of the same level? Keep in mind that the Evangelist selects domains just as Mystics do (whichever they please so long as it is consistent with alignment).
#5
marius4
Sep 04, 2003 22:59:55 Gut reaction: 6 domains sounds WAY overpowered. Granted they wouldn't have all 6 till around 18th or 20th level or so, but that really nixes the limited spell lists spontaneous casters usually have and seems overly broad in scope for one character. how is the evangelist supposed to be a balanced class and have 6 domains?? do they have reduced hit dice, etc?

Another issue, though, is the purpose of the spontaneous divine caster class in question (either evangelist or mystic). If it is meant as a replacement for the cleric class entirely, I might be more persuaded to liking the evangelist class. However, on Krynn the mystic class is not there to REPLACE the cleric class--at least not in the "present" time six months after the WoS--so I think substituting the Evangelist would give the wrong feel. (But who knows, a few here and there might be fun...)

IMO, the DL mystic should be compared to the DL cleric only with a hefty grain of salt. The features of the mystic class are maximized when the character chooses a focus, rather than trying to be able to do everything a cleric can do. Chances are a mystic WON'T be able to remove disease, remove blindness, lift curses, cure serious wounds, & dispel magic **AND** meld into stone, protect from energies, cast searing light, breathe water, & water walk. But find a proper niche and they'll fill it quite well.

If you're interested in other versions of spontaneous divine casters, check out the shugenja class if you haven't seen it already. They have limited spell lists, but gain the benefits of a specialization effect for a large portion of their spells.
#6
iltharanos
Sep 04, 2003 23:15:19 The Evangelist compared to the Mystic:

Same HD
Same number of skill points
Same weapon and armor proficiencies
Same base attack bonus
Same saving throw progressions
Same lack of turning/rebuking ability (absent a domain)
Same number of spells per day

The only difference between them is the sheer number of domains the Evangelist gets.

Six domains does sound a bit much. From the Dragon magazine article, the Evangelist isn't meant to replace the Cleric, it's merely an alternative to the standard Cleric.

Perhaps 4 total domains would be more reasonable? Perhaps 1 domain at 1st, another at 5th, then 10th, then 15th.

Yep, seen the Shugenja. I like that class, and for the same reason I like the Mystic. The thing is the Shugenja's only other spellcasting competitor in a typical OA campaign is the Sorcerer. On Krynn it's a little different since you've got the full-blown Cleric.
#7
ferratus
Sep 04, 2003 23:38:47 Personally, I like the one domain, because it gives the mystic a distinct personality.

Besides, the problem with the mystic being underpowered (if it is... personally I don't think so) is not something that is going to be solved with more spells. The mystic isn't going to run out of spells as it is.

If the turning undead and heavy armour is a really big loss (since in all other respects save spellcasting the mystic is exactly the same as a cleric) it would be better to just toss in a couple of metamagic feats for free. Perhaps let's say one at 5th, 10th, and 15th... and you turn into an outsider (as per monk) at 20th level.

That should compensate for the undead turning, right?
#8
iltharanos
Sep 04, 2003 23:58:55 The problem (if there is one) is more with the lack of spells known rather than spells per day. The whole reason this issue cropped up for me was the other day when I was telling a future player in my Dragonlance campaign about the cool new options provided in the DLCS.

This player played a Cleric in the last Dragonlance campaign I ran and one of his biggest complaints was the fact that he had to prepare all those divine spells. Of course I then told him of the Mystic, and he loved the idea of just casting his spells whenever he felt like casting them. Then I told him that he would have a limited number of spells known. This somewhat dimmed his enthusiasm, but not to the point that he dislikes the Mystic class.

This was how the situation stood for a few days. Then I was digging through some old Dragon magazines looking for campaign inspirations when I stumbled upon the Evangelist. I said to myself (not literally, mind you), "Whoa. Just like the Mystic but with SIX domains. Maybe I should allow this in my campaign?" The rest, of course, has been posted up here.

After that initial gut reaction, I've had more time to think about it. What I'll probably end up doing is disallowing the Evangelist and just going with the Mystic class as it is. I even toyed with the idea of allowing the player to spend a feat to get a domain (only once, though) but quickly discarded that idea. That feat would likely be better spent on metamagic or combat-related feats.

Now if the Mystic just absolutely doesn't work for my campaign, then I might toss in the Evangelist, but only then.
#9
ferratus
Sep 05, 2003 0:23:29 The Mystic does need its own spell list, with more wizard spells that are not "flashy" such as Tensers Transformation, or Charm Person. Some entirely new spells wouldn't hurt either.
#10
talinthas
Sep 05, 2003 1:05:04 see age of mortals.
#11
morgion-s_claw
Sep 05, 2003 2:43:51 While the mystic seems a bit weak you can always counterweight it with the cleric being bound by his church and more important a restrictive god... you really could harrass a player with his deity being demanding on how the spells are spent!
The mystic has total independence! Now that's somehting...

But fattening up the mystic would be a good idea if you drop the rule of a cleric having to prepare his spells... I liked the more "novelconform"-approach of clerics praying while casting, spending some time every day for worship.

Greetings to all!
M's C
#12
coyote_skyheart
Sep 05, 2003 9:57:56 Yes I do like how the mystic isn't bound to the whims of the gods.

Six domains, even Four domains is a bit much. Spreading them out among the level advancement helps, but it eventually results in the mystic being more powerful than the cleric at higher levels.
Seriously!

I may consider letting mystics start with 2 domains instead of one when I start my dragonlance campaign. It helps make up for the fact that clerics and druids can already spontaneously cast healing/summoning, respectively, so the mystic will then be 'one up' on spontaneous casting over the others, which is its specialization, and a few more mystics will be able to turn undead.

Having two domains will actually increase individuality among mystics. Currently there can only be 34 different types of mystics (34 domains). With two domains, the combo's increase the variety. (I can't think of the math right now). 34x33? possible combo's?
#13
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 8:12:59 Hm, sounds like munchkinism to me... Then again, with Dragon Magazine, that would hardly be surprising.
#14
talinthas
Sep 06, 2003 12:47:43 the evangelist is a pretty odd class. Starts with 2 domains, and gets one more every five levels, so by level 20 he has 6. Gets granted powers from each domain, and adds the spells from the domain to his known spells list. Otherwise though, his known spells list is very very small,and his spells perday is pretty weak too. Alltogether a class i would never use.
#15
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 15:40:52 personally, if i find the mystic is just too underpowered, i'll give him one additional domain every 6 levels. tops off with 4 domains by level 18. not too bad.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 iltharanos Sep 02, 2003 1:55:40	I like the Mystic class. Spontaneous divine spellcasting seemed like a natural balance to the spontaneous arcane spellcasting of the sorcerer. Then I saw the Evangelist. The Evangelist is in issue 311 of Dragon magazine and is one of several variant Cleric classes. It is a variant class in the same vein that an Illusionist is a variant Wizard. So what's the deal with the Evangelist? An Evangelist is just like the Mystic (spontaneous spellcasting et al), except he gets any two domains at first level. Then another domain at 5th, then 10th, then 15th, and finally 20th. Yes, that's six domains by the time the Evangelist is 20th level. As with Mystics, the spells from these domains do not count toward the spells known by the Evangelist. Thus the 20th level Evangelist knows 45 more spells than his 20th level Mystic counterpart. Perhaps the naysayers of the Mystic would be satisfied with the Evangelist's spellcasting prowess? ;) It's hard to beat six domains (plus all the domain granted powers they provide) and the potential to spontaneously cast 96 spells!
#2 Dragonhelm Sep 02, 2003 9:09:29	Sounds suspiciously like my own rules on mystics on the Nexus. Hrm... ;)
#3 iltharanos Sep 02, 2003 20:19:10	Originally posted by Dragonhelm Sounds suspiciously like my own rules on mystics on the Nexus. Hrm... ;) Really? Now that is most interesting.
#4 iltharanos Sep 04, 2003 21:36:36	I'm preparing to run a Dragonlance campaign and the topic of the Mystic came up. A fair number of people on this board think it's underpowered vis a vis the Cleric. Do you all think the Evangelist (as a replacement for the Mystic) would be on par with the Cleric, or would the 6 domains be too powerful compared to a Cleric of the same level? Keep in mind that the Evangelist selects domains just as Mystics do (whichever they please so long as it is consistent with alignment).
#5 marius4 Sep 04, 2003 22:59:55	Gut reaction: 6 domains sounds WAY overpowered. Granted they wouldn't have all 6 till around 18th or 20th level or so, but that really nixes the limited spell lists spontaneous casters usually have and seems overly broad in scope for one character. how is the evangelist supposed to be a balanced class and have 6 domains?? do they have reduced hit dice, etc? Another issue, though, is the purpose of the spontaneous divine caster class in question (either evangelist or mystic). If it is meant as a replacement for the cleric class entirely, I might be more persuaded to liking the evangelist class. However, on Krynn the mystic class is not there to REPLACE the cleric class--at least not in the "present" time six months after the WoS--so I think substituting the Evangelist would give the wrong feel. (But who knows, a few here and there might be fun...) IMO, the DL mystic should be compared to the DL cleric only with a hefty grain of salt. The features of the mystic class are maximized when the character chooses a focus, rather than trying to be able to do everything a cleric can do. Chances are a mystic WON'T be able to remove disease, remove blindness, lift curses, cure serious wounds, & dispel magic AND meld into stone, protect from energies, cast searing light, breathe water, & water walk. But find a proper niche and they'll fill it quite well. If you're interested in other versions of spontaneous divine casters, check out the shugenja class if you haven't seen it already. They have limited spell lists, but gain the benefits of a specialization effect for a large portion of their spells.
#6 iltharanos Sep 04, 2003 23:15:19	The Evangelist compared to the Mystic: Same HD Same number of skill points Same weapon and armor proficiencies Same base attack bonus Same saving throw progressions Same lack of turning/rebuking ability (absent a domain) Same number of spells per day The only difference between them is the sheer number of domains the Evangelist gets. Six domains does sound a bit much. From the Dragon magazine article, the Evangelist isn't meant to replace the Cleric, it's merely an alternative to the standard Cleric. Perhaps 4 total domains would be more reasonable? Perhaps 1 domain at 1st, another at 5th, then 10th, then 15th. Yep, seen the Shugenja. I like that class, and for the same reason I like the Mystic. The thing is the Shugenja's only other spellcasting competitor in a typical OA campaign is the Sorcerer. On Krynn it's a little different since you've got the full-blown Cleric.
#7 ferratus Sep 04, 2003 23:38:47	Personally, I like the one domain, because it gives the mystic a distinct personality. Besides, the problem with the mystic being underpowered (if it is... personally I don't think so) is not something that is going to be solved with more spells. The mystic isn't going to run out of spells as it is. If the turning undead and heavy armour is a really big loss (since in all other respects save spellcasting the mystic is exactly the same as a cleric) it would be better to just toss in a couple of metamagic feats for free. Perhaps let's say one at 5th, 10th, and 15th... and you turn into an outsider (as per monk) at 20th level. That should compensate for the undead turning, right?
#8 iltharanos Sep 04, 2003 23:58:55	The problem (if there is one) is more with the lack of spells known rather than spells per day. The whole reason this issue cropped up for me was the other day when I was telling a future player in my Dragonlance campaign about the cool new options provided in the DLCS. This player played a Cleric in the last Dragonlance campaign I ran and one of his biggest complaints was the fact that he had to prepare all those divine spells. Of course I then told him of the Mystic, and he loved the idea of just casting his spells whenever he felt like casting them. Then I told him that he would have a limited number of spells known. This somewhat dimmed his enthusiasm, but not to the point that he dislikes the Mystic class. This was how the situation stood for a few days. Then I was digging through some old Dragon magazines looking for campaign inspirations when I stumbled upon the Evangelist. I said to myself (not literally, mind you), "Whoa. Just like the Mystic but with SIX domains. Maybe I should allow this in my campaign?" The rest, of course, has been posted up here. After that initial gut reaction, I've had more time to think about it. What I'll probably end up doing is disallowing the Evangelist and just going with the Mystic class as it is. I even toyed with the idea of allowing the player to spend a feat to get a domain (only once, though) but quickly discarded that idea. That feat would likely be better spent on metamagic or combat-related feats. Now if the Mystic just absolutely doesn't work for my campaign, then I might toss in the Evangelist, but only then.
#9 ferratus Sep 05, 2003 0:23:29	The Mystic does need its own spell list, with more wizard spells that are not "flashy" such as Tensers Transformation, or Charm Person. Some entirely new spells wouldn't hurt either.
#10 talinthas Sep 05, 2003 1:05:04	see age of mortals.
#11 morgion-s_claw Sep 05, 2003 2:43:51	While the mystic seems a bit weak you can always counterweight it with the cleric being bound by his church and more important a restrictive god... you really could harrass a player with his deity being demanding on how the spells are spent! The mystic has total independence! Now that's somehting... But fattening up the mystic would be a good idea if you drop the rule of a cleric having to prepare his spells... I liked the more "novelconform"-approach of clerics praying while casting, spending some time every day for worship. Greetings to all! M's C
#12 coyote_skyheart Sep 05, 2003 9:57:56	Yes I do like how the mystic isn't bound to the whims of the gods. Six domains, even Four domains is a bit much. Spreading them out among the level advancement helps, but it eventually results in the mystic being more powerful than the cleric at higher levels. Seriously! I may consider letting mystics start with 2 domains instead of one when I start my dragonlance campaign. It helps make up for the fact that clerics and druids can already spontaneously cast healing/summoning, respectively, so the mystic will then be 'one up' on spontaneous casting over the others, which is its specialization, and a few more mystics will be able to turn undead. Having two domains will actually increase individuality among mystics. Currently there can only be 34 different types of mystics (34 domains). With two domains, the combo's increase the variety. (I can't think of the math right now). 34x33? possible combo's?
#13 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 8:12:59	Hm, sounds like munchkinism to me... Then again, with Dragon Magazine, that would hardly be surprising.
#14 talinthas Sep 06, 2003 12:47:43	the evangelist is a pretty odd class. Starts with 2 domains, and gets one more every five levels, so by level 20 he has 6. Gets granted powers from each domain, and adds the spells from the domain to his known spells list. Otherwise though, his known spells list is very very small,and his spells perday is pretty weak too. Alltogether a class i would never use.
#15 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 15:40:52	personally, if i find the mystic is just too underpowered, i'll give him one additional domain every 6 levels. tops off with 4 domains by level 18. not too bad.