1) Where do the Sigilians take water from? There are wells on the top of the Spire, or they must "import" it from other planes/portals?
2) Same question for food and mineral ores.
3) Is it true that you cannot enter Sigil with a Plane Shift spell and that you instead require a portal of some sort?
Thanks in advance!
2) Food and minerals are also imported via the portals.
3) You cannot use magic to enter or exit Sigil, travelling through portals is the only way to get in or out.
Hope that clears everything up.
There are wells on the top of the Spire [snip]
This is a slight visual misinterpretation that I've heard and seen alot. First, the Spire is infinite. It doesn't have a top that Sigil itself can be perched on. One cannot climb to the 'top' of something infinitely tall and see Sigil. By the same token, people in Sigil can just fly on over to the Spire, or drop buckets down into wells at the, once again infinite, top of the Spire. Logic breaks down when you say that Sigil is perched atop the Spire since the Spire has no top at all. Its akin to saying that both the Spire and Sigil occupy the same metaphysical space in the multiverse without coexisting. Its an exercise in creativity that defies logic, but I think it was always intended as such.
Some have referred to The Ditch as a conceptual embodyment of a river, rather than a river itself. At times the water filling the trench is frozen over, on fire from the filth dumped into it, and typically sizzling slightly with acid (the better to degrade the trash thrown into it on a daily basis).
At seemingly random intervals some hidden portal or portals to Oceanus open up and wash through The Ditch, flushing the length of it and for a short period providing a source of fresh, clean water for the residents of the surrounding districts. The Dabus meet every night at the edge of The Ditch to fish trash from the water and dispose of it, and at the same time seem to project a semi-autonomous illusion or advanced rebus of a scaly monster, known as The Ditch Beast to locals who fear the creature which to them, only appears in the waters after dusk. The better to allow the silent caretakers of Sigil the time and privacy to do their work for their Bladed Mistress.
Of course, the pie of Planescape and the Spire w/ Sigil atop defy logic. I try to see all planes as overlapping, instead of broken down. For instance, you have a torch burning. The torch is a representation of the Elemental Plane of Fire. Isn't it possible, with enough skill, to access the plane through the torch? The same goes with all elemental planes. As for the Abyss, Celest, the Lairs of Hell, and so forth, they are "places" overlapping with the current plane. If all planes are infinite, I read that as 3 dimensional. As such, the only way for infinite 3-dimensional planes to co-exist is to overlap, be it through alternate realities or not. Of course, I'm probably putting too much thought into this and am also getting off track.
But there's a bit called suspension of disbelief to take into account too. ;) We can talk about such more abstract and technical things, but eventually it reaches the point of debating the spread of the wave function of a Nupperibo in a box in Stygia, and its alllll downhill from there. ;)
Nupperibo in a box, there's an image for you. *laugh*
And if you fly across the torus of Sigil and try to fly 'down' to the Spire, its not quite so simple... *EVIL grin*
If someone was able to cast a permanent fly spell on themselves, and likewise had some means to cease aging, then couldn't he or she fly from Sigil to the Outlands below?
Nope. Fliers who look over the "edge" of Sigil don't see the spire. There's nothing over the edge. People who fall off just aren't seen again. From the outlands, one can see the top of the spire, even though it's infinitely tall, and can see a torus shaped thing that most assume is Sigil at the top. Even if you could start at the top of the spire and fly/fall down, you'd never hit the bottom, even given an infinite amount of time to fall in. It's infinitely tall.
When dealing with questions of such an abstract nature as multiple infinities within a game context, its far easier to visualize that no two infinities ever touch. It would seriously cause mathmaticians to have heart attacks left and right if you asked them to computate the concept of one infinity merging with another (as the case of the layer of Arcadia sliding off into Mechanus). Its simple to visualize this happening until you start realizing that both planes are infinite. There's no end, no begining. How can two things that have neither start nor finish (hence no middle) merge together?
For the Sigilian flier, in theory, since Sigil is at the apex of an infinite structure, it would take an infinite amount of time to even reach the structure itself. Hard to visualize? Yup. Technically, you would never be able to reach the Spire by flying out of Sigil, no matter how much time you had since the Spire is infinite. In the game context, no one knows what happens to those who attempt to 'fall/fly out of Sigil' since no one has ever returned or lived to talk about it. They just vanish into the nothingness outside of Sigil and are never seen from again. Maybe they fall infinitely, of the nothing causes them to dissapate into nothingness themselves. Or they are instantly teleported into the largest congregation of Dust mephits somewhere in the lower reaches of Sigil where they are stricken mad from the endless hours of complaining and lamenting that they are forced to endure. Who knows?
Originally posted by mrgoat
Which only demonstrates one of the key points about Planescape: Applying logic all the time won't get you anywhere. Yes, the planes are infinite in size. No, they don't touch. No, they don't coexist or intersect. (Well, many of them don't.) Yes, something can slide directly from one to another. Yes, math does oftentimes lack the capability to describe stuff that happens on the planes. Stuff that absolutely can't happen, occasionally does.
I really don't understand why this is so hard for some people to conceptualize. Imagine two infinite sheets of paper, one lying on top of the other. They don't coexist or intersect. They *do* touch, and you *can* move directly from one to the other, provided you're capable of moving in the third dimension. The planes are the same way; they exist side-by-side in 4-dimensional space (ignoring for the moment that time is often considered the "4th dimension") without overlapping (in most cases), and you have to move in the 4th dimension to get from one to the other. Maybe you can't *visualize* 4-dimensional spaces, but they're not at all beyond the capabality of math to describe.
Wyvern
Maybe you can't *visualize* 4-dimensional spaces, but they're not at all beyond the capabality of math to describe.
Errr . . . visualizing 4 dimensional space is rather easy since we all live in that same space. Its visualizing multiple infinities using descriptions of 3 dimensional images to convey the conepts that doen't really fit. A better analogy is this:
You have a 1 foot square box with no lid. That box is filled up entirely with one plane of existence. The plane of exisitence fills the box completely with absolutely no more room to put in anything else (since its infinite). Now, cram another plane into the box with no lid that is already full. Repeat 25 or so more times.
Originally posted by Wyvern76
I really don't understand why this is so hard for some people to conceptualize. Imagine two infinite sheets of paper, one lying on top of the other. They don't coexist or intersect. They *do* touch, and you *can* move directly from one to the other, provided you're capable of moving in the third dimension. The planes are the same way; they exist side-by-side in 4-dimensional space (ignoring for the moment that time is often considered the "4th dimension") without overlapping (in most cases), and you have to move in the 4th dimension to get from one to the other. Maybe you can't *visualize* 4-dimensional spaces, but they're not at all beyond the capabality of math to describe.
Wyvern
In mathematical terms, planes may considered flat and extending outward along the X-axis. However, in dimensional terms, including the metaphysics of the multiverse, planes don't only outward, but upward, along the Y-axis, and even the z-axis. I.e., not two dimensional, but three dimensional. As such, planes are not necessarily only infinitely long, but infinitely high.
I suppose, in the end, it's how we all picture our multiverse. Personally, I like the box approach:
Originally posted by Mach 2.5Errr . . . visualizing 4 dimensional space is rather easy since we all live in that same space. Its visualizing multiple infinities using descriptions of 3 dimensional images to convey the conepts that doen't really fit. A better analogy is this:
You have a 1 foot square box with no lid. That box is filled up entirely with one plane of existence. The plane of exisitence fills the box completely with absolutely no more room to put in anything else (since its infinite). Now, cram another plane into the box with no lid that is already full. Repeat 25 or so more times.
It's easy for me to visualize that all planes actually fill the same place, without being considered one of each other. I.e., different planes of reality and DnD allows you to access those realities.
Of course this takes me back to my thought:
1. Plane of Fire accessed through a flame?
2. Plane of Water accessed through a puddle?
etc.
It may be that accessing such planes through such means is possible, though incredibly difficult. Finding portals that allow one to physically walk into another plane is simply easier.
Note, that those planes I mentioned bear physical traits we can touch upon in our world. But what about existential planes, like the Abyss, the Lairs of Hell, Celestia, etc.? Those planes seem to exist more so as insubstantial connections to our moods and conceptualizations. This doesn't mean that they don't exist, because in Planescape, they most certainly do. It only means that the connections between our plane and those planes is less concrete. As such, portals may be the only route there.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Errr . . . visualizing 4 dimensional space is rather easy since we all live in that same space. Its visualizing multiple infinities using descriptions of 3 dimensional images to convey the conepts that doen't really fit. A better analogy is this:
Actually I believe he was referring to infinite 3 dimensional spaces within a four spacial dimensional space, thus the 3 infinite planes can be infinite and not overlap. Yes the real world has 4 dimensions, but only 3 spacial and 1 time dimension, which is not considered as spacial, or in the above example. [Ignoring string theory which posits 10 or 11 or more spacial dimensions. I'm a molecular biologist, not a theoretical physicist...]
You might well consider the Astral plane as a 4th spacial dimension with the other, infinate but not overlapping, 3 dimensional planes suspended within it. This is perhaps getting too intricate, after all, its fantasy and things don't have to make conceptual sense absolutely. But it can be fun to speculate admittidly. :D
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
This is perhaps getting too intricate, after all, its fantasy and things don't have to make conceptual sense absolutely. But it can be fun to speculate admittidly. :D
You're right - trying to envision fantastic depictions in realistic terms is half the fun. Think about all the thought that's historically gone into warp coils, hyperspace, teleportation ... and multiple planes of reality. Of course, think also about laser guns and before you know it, we'll have them! (If we don't already!)
Two comments to explain where I come from in my vision:
1. Baldur's Gate 2. When you are in the prison seeking to free Imoen, one of the prisoners you come across is a woman who can see all the different planes of reality, as well as our own. IIRC, if you talk to her long enough, you can actually see some of what she's seeing. This is where it got me thinking that all planes overlap at one set point, but at different levels of existence. As such, accessing planes like Fire and Water may simply be easier to do that transcendental planes, because the bridge between the two planes is closer. Still, this doesn't mean that the layout of every plane is the same as every other. Only that they're all in the same "box" called "Existence." (or the multiverse, or something like that.)
2. The Blood Wars Trilogy. IIRC, at one point in the book, the main characters are simply told that the "rules" don't apply anymore. This is sort of the Planescape maxim. A true planar doesn't come to expect anything as the norm, because he or she knows that the unbelievable is as believable as the believable. As such, the planes are just as they are because they are. They needn't fit our depiction of physics and mathematics. Aside from the fact that this is a made-up campaign setting, and anythign goes, the dictum for existing in the planes is that anything goes!
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Errr . . . visualizing 4 dimensional space is rather easy since we all live in that same space.
Tell me then, how do you visualize moving ayewards?
You have a 1 foot square box with no lid. That box is filled up entirely with one plane of existence. The plane of exisitence fills the box completely with absolutely no more room to put in anything else (since its infinite). Now, cram another plane into the box with no lid that is already full. Repeat 25 or so more times.
No, that's NOT a proper analogy. The proper analogy would be that the other 25 boxes are displaced from the original box along the B, C and/or E dimensions.
Originally posted by Saurstalk
In mathematical terms, planes may considered flat and extending outward along the X-axis. However, in dimensional terms, including the metaphysics of the multiverse, planes don't only outward, but upward, along the Y-axis, and even the z-axis. I.e., not two dimensional, but three dimensional. As such, planes are not necessarily only infinitely long, but infinitely high.
You're still thinking three-dimensionally. Just as a two-dimensional resident of Flatland can't visualize moving "up", a three-dimensional person like you or me can't visualize moving kata. That doesn't mean that direction doesn't exist, or that it's impossible to describe mathematically. In fact, the only way we CAN describe it is mathematically, since it's outside the realm of our own experience.
It only means that the connections between our plane and those planes is less concrete. As such, portals may be the only route there.
Whatever happened to using planeshift?
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
Actually I believe he was referring to infinite 3 dimensional spaces within a four spacial dimensional space, thus the 3 infinite planes can be infinite and not overlap.
EXACTLY! Are you and I the only ones here that ever watched Sliders?
Wyvern
Originally posted by Wyvern76
EXACTLY! Are you and I the only ones here that ever watched Sliders?
I think I may have seen one or two episodes of the show a long time ago, but that wasn't my inspiration here.
Tell me then, how do you visualize moving ayewards
Since the author is still attempting to 'visually plot' multiple non conterminus infinities, one can only say that ANY analogy is incorrect and is reletive only in its use in visualization exercises. In theory, if you have 2 infinit things that have the same dimensions, it doesn't matter how you visualize them, its going to be wrong. Mathmaticaly, the only time two infinite dimensions can co-exist is if they actualy 'share' one or more aspects of their constituent dimensions, i.e. Flatworld can exist as a subsection of our known universe and not only would we never know since we cannot limit ourselves in such a way as to perceive only 2 spacial dimensions that fully neglect a 3rd, flatworlders would never be able to perceive us or our existence. Alas, once you start doing this, the math becomes very complex and basically moot anyhow since anything you come up with is so off the wall theoretical and 100% unproveable that its not worth the years of effort.
No, that's NOT a proper analogy
Err. . . there is absolutely no proper analogy, only examples of failed attempts.
or that it's impossible to describe mathematically
Actually, something is only able to be described mathmaticaly if your math holds true. Planescape and its layered infinities, does not hold true. The math breaks itself down, so hence, you cannot describe it at all.
EXACTLY! Are you and I the only ones here that ever watched Sliders
Loved the show until they got rid of John Rys Davis (I know, I'm entierly forgetting how the name is spelled). After that, I stopped watching since the rest of the group were a bit too irritating. Also, they never once gave any kind of 'real' answers to the whole sliding theory, only enough jargon and jumble to seem realistic to the average viewer.