Originally posted by warrior-poet
I have only read about Irda in Dragons of Summer Flame, but it seems to me that they would be better suited for Sorcerers. I thought their magic was more derived from their very nature and connection to the environment, rather than study.
Good eye, but there's a reason behind this.
Irda are mostly wiped out by the time that sorcerers are a playable class. So, their favored class would do them absolutely no good as most irda would be gone by the time that sorcerery was discovered.
If the irda were still around or if sorcery had always existed, it would make sense for them to be sorcerers. Since they're a playable race for times when primal sorcery is not available, wizard would be a much better choice.
Hope that helps.
But...that's just me.
How do we know that the Irda weren't already using primal sorcery before it's discovery by the rest of Ansalon? While I understand the reasoning behind the wizard choice, isn't sorceror also plausible, and because of their limited contact with other races, it's no wonder it didn't spread to the other peoples. I'm not trying to start a fight, I'd just thought I'd throw the idea out there.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Good eye, but there's a reason behind this.
Irda are mostly wiped out by the time that sorcerers are a playable class. So, their favored class would do them absolutely no good as most irda would be gone by the time that sorcerery was discovered.
If the irda were still around or if sorcery had always existed, it would make sense for them to be sorcerers. Since they're a playable race for times when primal sorcery is not available, wizard would be a much better choice.
Hope that helps.
Hey, the Irda weren't all wiped out!
There's still an island full of Mischta, and a bunch of wanderers across the continent, hiding in disguise Banshee
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
I agree....Wizard was a strange choice for a favored class....In my game I will allow for both wizard and sorcerer to be the favored class for Irda....I rather like the Paladin's Wrath approach above...And even in Summer Flame the Irda magic was considered different by the Wizards of High Sorcery.
True, true.....and even their magic, as described in the novel about the Irda seemed to describe them more as being sorcerers than wizards....they didn't study it like elves and humans...it was more primal, a part of their blood...
Banshee
Let me offer some other tidbits, though, to give you some things to think about (and to play Hiddukel's Advocate).
1. Irda who were away from the Irda isle were always drawn back to it when Solinari was in High Sanction. This suggests a tie to High Sorcery.
2. The Irda were said to have access to magic that was more powerful than even what the WoHS had. Primal Sorcery has always been described as weaker than High Sorcery.
3. Playable time periods. While some irda do exist to this day, the vast majority of them existed when primal sorcery was not normally accessable.
4. If the irda did take sorcerer and showed up on mainland Ansalon, how would he be received by the WoHS?
Personally, I think irda magic is something a bit more than what we've seen thus far. They may cast like sorcerers, but they have definite ties to High Sorcery. Perhaps they're able to use High Sorcery like a sorcerer does.
Anyhoo, there's some food for thought.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Very good points, everyone, and I do have to agree to an extent that sorcerer sounds like an initial good favored class for the irda.
Let me offer some other tidbits, though, to give you some things to think about (and to play Hiddukel's Advocate).
1. Irda who were away from the Irda isle were always drawn back to it when Solinari was in High Sanction. This suggests a tie to High Sorcery.
2. The Irda were said to have access to magic that was more powerful than even what the WoHS had. Primal Sorcery has always been described as weaker than High Sorcery.
3. Playable time periods. While some irda do exist to this day, the vast majority of them existed when primal sorcery was not normally accessable.
4. If the irda did take sorcerer and showed up on mainland Ansalon, how would he be received by the WoHS?
Personally, I think irda magic is something a bit more than what we've seen thus far. They may cast like sorcerers, but they have definite ties to High Sorcery. Perhaps they're able to use High Sorcery like a sorcerer does.
Anyhoo, there's some food for thought.
Good answer. Here's some things I didn't consider at first. Now to parry with clever words... JOY :D !!!!!
1. The connection to Solinari could have simply been religious, not necessarily a tie to High Sorcery.
2. and 3. If the Irda were able to access Primal Sorcery before the other races, perhaps they have a stronger bond to it, thus increasing it's power for them alone.
4. Most likely, he would be considered an anamoly, and to be destroyed as a renegade.
It's all pretty plausible, I think. An alternative, which I will most likely not use in my game. I'm happy with the rules as they are. Still, it's something to consider if you're not happy with the Irda Wizard detail.
Irda's favored class is sorcerer in my game.
Son of Thunder
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Very good points, everyone, and I do have to agree to an extent that sorcerer sounds like an initial good favored class for the irda.
Let me offer some other tidbits, though, to give you some things to think about (and to play Hiddukel's Advocate).
1. Irda who were away from the Irda isle were always drawn back to it when Solinari was in High Sanction. This suggests a tie to High Sorcery.
2. The Irda were said to have access to magic that was more powerful than even what the WoHS had. Primal Sorcery has always been described as weaker than High Sorcery.
3. Playable time periods. While some irda do exist to this day, the vast majority of them existed when primal sorcery was not normally accessable.
4. If the irda did take sorcerer and showed up on mainland Ansalon, how would he be received by the WoHS?
Personally, I think irda magic is something a bit more than what we've seen thus far. They may cast like sorcerers, but they have definite ties to High Sorcery. Perhaps they're able to use High Sorcery like a sorcerer does.
Anyhoo, there's some food for thought.
I'm pretty sure that Irda are considered renegades by the rest of Ansalon, even if they *do* follow the orders of High Sorcery etc.
In Otherlands, it refers to the Mischta being white robed wizards....but it says they would receive a very cold reception from their counterparts on Ansalon, to say the least...
Banshee
As favoured classes go, I think that Wizard is appropriate for the Irda. Although not members of the Orders of High Sorcery, they would probably choose Solinari as a "philosophical patron", much as the "renegade" mages of Taladas do.
Now to play (*thinks for a sec*) Zeboim's Advocate!
Originally posted by Paladin's Wrath
1. The connection to Solinari could have simply been religious, not necessarily a tie to High Sorcery.
Ah, but Solinari calls to the irda. It's a strong urge to return to their island home. I wouldn't say it is a religious thing, but I would say there is some connection.
With debates like this, I'm going to run out of evil deities to be advocates for. ;)
Let me give a differing idea for the Irda being Wizards over Sorcerors. In two words...
The Greygem.
A stone that contains pure chaos and was guarded by the Irda until their unfortunate near extinction. Perhaps using Sorcery (which seems far more chaotic) around the Greygem is a bad idea and has dire consequences. Perhaps Solinari entrusted the Irda the task of guarding the Greygem and that is why the Ansalonian Irda feel compelled to return to the isle. I think that once they were Sorcerors but as the Sorcery left the world and was replaced by the Wizardly magic they too were forced to use the new Wizardly magic. The innate spell ability reflects their connection to the older magic but times change and so did the Irda. Perhaps with the return of Sorcery, the Irda have once again embraced Sorcery...
I admit I know little of the Irda besides the character race and the few points they were mentioned in the novels. I'm probably way off but it's an idea
Arandur
Wow, someone scratch all those names off the endangered species list! It shuntin' season!
Rosisha, running away in terror!
Originally posted by Arandur
Trampas you mention that the lunar cycle of Solinari 'calls' to the Irda to return to their Island home, I was wondering which home? Is this the Mischta or just the Ansalonian Irda? Perhaps there is a difference between the two.
It's been a while since I've read up on the Mischta, but I believe this affects only the Ansalonian Irda. IIRC, I believe the Mischta are a sub-race of the Irda. Don't quote me on that, though. ;)
lol
Rosisha
Originally posted by Rosisha
I quote: "When in trouble, when in doubt; run in circles, twist and shout."
"Or it may come 3-2-1-2, or jump from 9 to 5. And when you see the ending sight, the beginning may arrive!"
--The Monkees, from the movie Head.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
By Reorx's Forge, Rosisha, pull ye'self t'gether! There be no time for screaming like an elf maiden when there's dwarf spirits to be drunk! ;)
My only reply to this is... HARNKEGGERFEST!!!!!! WHOO!!!
:invasion:
Doh! An invasion of hill dwarves.
Also, I think that some member of the OoHS know about the existance of the Irda, they are just too powerful to be eradicate, that is all.
Rikar was born in Mithas. Somewhat sickly as a child, he was rescued from certain death by an old wizard who began to teach him spells. Rikar showed an amazing aptitude for magic. After he studied for a few years, he struck off on his own and traveled to the Tower of High Sorcery to take his test. He passed easily, one of the few minotaurs to do so.
Knaak's material and the changing philosophies regarding minotaurs have probably altered this perception and now, any minotaur wizard on Krynn's likely to be a renegade.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Halabis
I disagree. I think that most minotaurs, behing highly lawful creatures, would join the WoHS if they decided to take up magic.
The Knights of the Thorn are highly lawful, and they didn't.
The question here is more appropriately: "Would a minotaur, who believes that his race is superior to all others, and who comes from an empire that puts might and prowess above all other things, have any interest in being placed under the authority of a secretive organization run by weakling elves and humans?"Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Arandur
The Greygem.
A stone that contains pure chaos and was guarded by the Irda until their unfortunate near extinction. Perhaps using Sorcery (which seems far more chaotic) around the Greygem is a bad idea and has dire consequences. Perhaps Solinari entrusted the Irda the task of guarding the Greygem and that is why the Ansalonian Irda feel compelled to return to the isle. I think that once they were Sorcerors but as the Sorcery left the world and was replaced by the Wizardly magic they too were forced to use the new Wizardly magic. The innate spell ability reflects their connection to the older magic but times change and so did the Irda. Perhaps with the return of Sorcery, the Irda have once again embraced Sorcery...
I admit I know little of the Irda besides the character race and the few points they were mentioned in the novels. I'm probably way off but it's an idea
Arandur
Hey All,
It’s been a very, very, very long time since I last posted,
I think it was before vanished moon was actually realised.
Anyway,
Arandur, I like the idea,
But ……….
To play Nuitari’s Advocate…
There are a few things,
First, is that the Irda actually “stole” the Greygem from the world, in order to protect themselves against the order formally known as the Knights of Takhisis. They believed that the magic inside the Greygem could protect them.
Also, now this is just a though, but in order to open up the Greygem the Irda had to use powerful magic to do so, and I believe they would have to have used Sorcery in order to do this.
If you think about it, it is highly doubtful that any of the gods of magic would have agreed to let the Irda open up the Greygem. They used their actual innate magic to open it, and the greygem would have amplified that magic.
And it would make sense that they used Sorcery to open the greygem, the gem was made out of the same energies as the world, that is also the same energies as Wild Magic.
So……
Innate magic = Sorcery
One question I have is what do people think of Half-Irda??
I know Trampas wrote a totally wicked version, but now that the DLCS has been introduced, do you think there are things that could / should be changed???
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Rikar's clearly one of those famous exceptions to the rule. Also, he was created using the 2nd edition rules in Tales of the Lance, which actually open the Wizard of High Sorcery up to minotaurs.
Knaak's material and the changing philosophies regarding minotaurs have probably altered this perception and now, any minotaur wizard on Krynn's likely to be a renegade.
Cheers,
Cam
Until it is stated WoHS automatically view all Minotaur wizards as renegades I don't believe things have changed at all. Minotaurs have always been proud of their heritage and destiny. The fact that Rikar is rare (and not an exception to the rule as you mention) should be enough to calm "WoHS purists".
(unless you're talking about retconning Rikar and that passage from Flint's Axe)
Why do the WoHS bother with elves? After all, they're mostly secluded and stay within their forests. How is that any different than a gnome who stays within Mt. Nevermind?
The chances of there being a minotaur wizard are somewhat limited, although not entirely impossible. Rikar is a great example.
Minotaurs are a race that believe that might makes right. Strength of arm is paramount to minotaur society, but they also value strength in general. Spiritual strength has a prominent place in minotaur society. Minotaur leaders must have both physical and mental strength. It would stand to reason that a minotaur wizard would have to have a sense of strength in magic. Certainly, many would consider the path of the war mage.
Minotaurs also respect strength and honor, as they do with the Knights of Solamnia. It would stand to reason that a minotaur wizard may respect the magical strength of the Wizards of High Sorcery, the most powerful organization of magic known to exist.
So I can see it either way, and I'm not sure if there is a clean-cut answer.
Additionally, when the Irda broke the Graygem, I don't recall any references to researching spells in books to do it. It was more of a communal spell-casting effort--sounds a little more like sorcerery than wizardry to me.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Until it is stated WoHS automatically view all Minotaur wizards as renegades I don't believe things have changed at all. Minotaurs have always been proud of their heritage and destiny. The fact that Rikar is rare (and not an exception to the rule as you mention) should be enough to calm "WoHS purists".
I believe the statement under the WoHS PrC background is "such instances are so few as to be considered aberrations."
In the Age of Mortals, especially with the return of the Gods of Magic, there are now minotaurs who are expressing an interest in joining the reformed Orders of High Sorcery. The write-up on Clan Teskos in the Silvanesti section of the Age of Mortals companion mentions this. Whether they'll be accepted is up to those who are administering the Tests.
(unless you're talking about retconning Rikar and that passage from Flint's Axe)
I dunno. Are you going to accept everything in Flint's Axe as canon? Knight's Sword certainly can't exist in standard continuity without some work...
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by The Udjat
IIRC, Irda get a +2 bonus to Charisma and Intelligence.
Thanks Udjat, I had a sinking feeling as I was typing my post that I was a little off.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I believe the statement under the WoHS PrC background is "such instances are so few as to be considered aberrations."
By the way that phrase is structured that adjective is qualifying the chances, not minotaurs and certainly not how WoHS view minotaurs. It also doesn't mention that minotaurs are automatically viewed as renegades.
In the Age of Mortals, especially with the return of the Gods of Magic, there are now minotaurs who are expressing an interest in joining the reformed Orders of High Sorcery. The write-up on Clan Teskos in the Silvanesti section of the Age of Mortals companion mentions this. Whether they'll be accepted is up to those who are administering the Tests.
Exactly, it's up to whoever administers the test and not an overall WoHS policy that "minotaur = bad, sound the alarm".
I dunno. Are you going to accept everything in Flint's Axe as canon? Knight's Sword certainly can't exist in standard continuity without some work...
Even if there are some things in Flint's Axe that may clash with other products (and I can't remember any atm) does this mean we have to cross of the entire product from "DL's approved list"?
In this particular issue, Rikar doesn't contradict with anything that came before it. Like I said above, unless you're talking about an editorial change, minotaurs being proud and independent and being part of the WoHS are not mutually exclusive. As one example, a LG minotaur wizard would probably want to join the WoHS. Rare? Sure. But let's not cut minotaurs' legs when it comes to the WoHS when previous products didn't. At least, that's my personal view on this.
Thanks in advance!
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