WoHS, changing orders, and secrets... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

WoHS, changing orders, and secrets...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Sep 03, 2003 7:04:51 My question is this:

When a WoHS changes orders, are they required to replace the secrets from the previous order they belonged to?

For example: A WoHS starts as a White Robe and learns three secrets while advancing in level. Later the White Robe changes Orders to the Red, keeping the previous secrets, and then learning two from the Red Order upon reaching 10th level. In the end, the WoHS has three White Order secrets, and Two Red Order secrets.

I haven't found anything in the DLCS that says that the WoHS MUST replace the secrets when changing orders. They just can't learn any new secrets from their previous Order.

Am I correct on this?
#2
zombiegleemax
Sep 03, 2003 7:21:04 Here is what the DLCS says, page 77:

"A Wizard of High Sorcery who changes orders retains any bonus feats and order secrets learned, but may not learn any new secrets from his previous order. With each Wizard of High Sorcery level he advances after he changes orders, he may exchange one secret from his previous order, until he has replaced all his old secrets."

Since many of the old secrets will become useless once you change orders (for example, a casting bonus to a school which you no longer have access to), replacing the old secrets like that seems a good idea. Besides, I find it more coherent and believeable from a roleplaying point of view as well. But I think you are correct in saying that no one forces you to do so.
#3
Granakrs
Sep 03, 2003 11:45:35 If i understand the rules right, Some secrets, if choosen well, and use the generalist wizard rule in AoM negate many of the problems about old secrets being unworkable.

For example, Say i use the generalist wizard rule from the AoM and play a wiz3/red robe5. That means no school specialization and no benefits from that either. I take magic of change and magic of Deception secrets. Then I switch robes to black, and and become a wiz3/black robe6. I get a third secret, Necromancy. Given the generalist, i'm not forbidden from casting spells in the previous order. I choose the magic of Betrayal. That means i can empower (and stuff) transmutation, necromancy, and Illusion without paying the higher spell slot cost.
#4
talinthas
Sep 03, 2003 13:02:59 except that suddenly you also have this giant amount of flavor baggage to deal with.

Switching alignments from good to evil has serious repercussions in DL.
#5
kalanth
Sep 03, 2003 13:11:15 My biggest problem is that the Generalist rule will be abused by a player. In essence, the specialization is great, it keeps the WoHS close to the original 2nd ed version where they just could not cast certain spells when in certain robes.
#6
Granakrs
Sep 03, 2003 14:26:10
Originally posted by talinthas
except that suddenly you also have this giant amount of flavor baggage to deal with.

Switching alignments from good to evil has serious repercussions in DL.

YEah. but that baggage is called role-playing. I don't think it's all that bad, really. he only gains a 20% XP penalty for 1 level. And his baggage spell-wise will be waiting for a ful cycle of his moon. If you think about it, for Nuitari, that's only 8 Days. :-) A whole load of difference compared to Solinari, and waiting 36 days.

in my mind, it fits what Fistandantilus was saying to Raistlin. As a neutral guy, you do have objectivitity and learn more. Then you easily get into wicked black robe spells. :-) it shows that Nuitari is very seductive and accomidating for those who join him. :-)
#7
talinthas
Sep 03, 2003 14:30:26 heh. i totally didnt look at who i replied to. Of course you'd know about all that =)

In my game evil pcs just arent allowed, so question is moot.
#8
kalanth
Sep 03, 2003 15:02:37
Originally posted by talinthas
In my game evil pcs just arent allowed, so question is moot.

I am right there with you, I don't allow evil PC's either. However, I do allow PC's to go evil, which makes them turn into NPC's.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 03, 2003 7:04:51	My question is this: When a WoHS changes orders, are they required to replace the secrets from the previous order they belonged to? For example: A WoHS starts as a White Robe and learns three secrets while advancing in level. Later the White Robe changes Orders to the Red, keeping the previous secrets, and then learning two from the Red Order upon reaching 10th level. In the end, the WoHS has three White Order secrets, and Two Red Order secrets. I haven't found anything in the DLCS that says that the WoHS MUST replace the secrets when changing orders. They just can't learn any new secrets from their previous Order. Am I correct on this?
#2 zombiegleemax Sep 03, 2003 7:21:04	Here is what the DLCS says, page 77: "A Wizard of High Sorcery who changes orders retains any bonus feats and order secrets learned, but may not learn any new secrets from his previous order. With each Wizard of High Sorcery level he advances after he changes orders, he may exchange one secret from his previous order, until he has replaced all his old secrets." Since many of the old secrets will become useless once you change orders (for example, a casting bonus to a school which you no longer have access to), replacing the old secrets like that seems a good idea. Besides, I find it more coherent and believeable from a roleplaying point of view as well. But I think you are correct in saying that no one forces you to do so.
#3 Granakrs Sep 03, 2003 11:45:35	If i understand the rules right, Some secrets, if choosen well, and use the generalist wizard rule in AoM negate many of the problems about old secrets being unworkable. For example, Say i use the generalist wizard rule from the AoM and play a wiz3/red robe5. That means no school specialization and no benefits from that either. I take magic of change and magic of Deception secrets. Then I switch robes to black, and and become a wiz3/black robe6. I get a third secret, Necromancy. Given the generalist, i'm not forbidden from casting spells in the previous order. I choose the magic of Betrayal. That means i can empower (and stuff) transmutation, necromancy, and Illusion without paying the higher spell slot cost.
#4 talinthas Sep 03, 2003 13:02:59	except that suddenly you also have this giant amount of flavor baggage to deal with. Switching alignments from good to evil has serious repercussions in DL.
#5 kalanth Sep 03, 2003 13:11:15	My biggest problem is that the Generalist rule will be abused by a player. In essence, the specialization is great, it keeps the WoHS close to the original 2nd ed version where they just could not cast certain spells when in certain robes.
#6 Granakrs Sep 03, 2003 14:26:10	Originally posted by talinthas except that suddenly you also have this giant amount of flavor baggage to deal with. Switching alignments from good to evil has serious repercussions in DL. YEah. but that baggage is called role-playing. I don't think it's all that bad, really. he only gains a 20% XP penalty for 1 level. And his baggage spell-wise will be waiting for a ful cycle of his moon. If you think about it, for Nuitari, that's only 8 Days. :-) A whole load of difference compared to Solinari, and waiting 36 days. in my mind, it fits what Fistandantilus was saying to Raistlin. As a neutral guy, you do have objectivitity and learn more. Then you easily get into wicked black robe spells. :-) it shows that Nuitari is very seductive and accomidating for those who join him. :-)
#7 talinthas Sep 03, 2003 14:30:26	heh. i totally didnt look at who i replied to. Of course you'd know about all that =) In my game evil pcs just arent allowed, so question is moot.
#8 kalanth Sep 03, 2003 15:02:37	Originally posted by talinthas In my game evil pcs just arent allowed, so question is moot. I am right there with you, I don't allow evil PC's either. However, I do allow PC's to go evil, which makes them turn into NPC's.