Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gforce99 Sep 03, 2003 12:53:52	Is it possible to have paladins in Dark Sun? I know there are no gods, but if you used the regular definitions of a paladin (ie holy knight) could they substitute higher elemental or avangion for god? In the same idea, could a blackguard (anti-paladin) be used if a sorcerer king was used instead of a evil god? If anyone would care to eloborate on their answer, I would be most appreciative.
#2 zombiegleemax Sep 03, 2003 13:10:55	Can you? Sure. If you're a dm, add 'em in. Thematically they don't fit however. To have someone championing the cause of truth and light is counter to the mood and ambiance of the dark sun setting. It's a harsh world. There are people trying to do good for certain, but they still tend to have a dark side to them, or have to follow a dark side to pursue the good they want to accomplish. Paladins are too.........2 dimensional to fit well into that.
#3 zombiegleemax Sep 03, 2003 13:39:27	If your familiar with Dragonlance and understand the differences between a Knight's version of honor and a minotaur's version of honor, then you could easily model the code of conduct for any 'paladin' to match more of the minotaur version. Officially, Orinis is the only avangion left. Since he is trying very hard to keep a low profile, I doubt he would have an organization of worshipers trolling about doing 'good deeds' that may draw undue attention to himself and New Kurn. In fact, like Xeros points out, even he would have a more pragmatic sense of good that appeals to the Athasian flavor. As for them being elemental champions, I just don't see it really fitting. Why would the elemental lords care about codes of conduct? They freely give their abilities to both good and evil since such concepts are alien to them. The priests are the elemental champions already.
#4 gforce99 Sep 03, 2003 13:47:43	On a side note, would Druids/Clerics be considered champions of the Elementals?
#5 jon_oracle_of_athas Sep 03, 2003 13:58:14	I have a Templar Knight prestige class write up. Maybe that fills the role of "athasian blackguard" you're looking for? It's in the 3E section at Athas Online (link in sig).
#6 gforce99 Sep 04, 2003 5:30:01	thanks Is there anything, in any1s opinion, that would be the "opposite" of a Templar Knight?
#7 zombiegleemax Sep 04, 2003 5:59:02	Errr . . . probably, but it would make the templar's look like the paladin style good guys . . . .
#8 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Sep 04, 2003 11:39:13	Athas is just a world that Paladins don't really fit into, IMHO. I can see something like a Templar Knight class possibly, but knight-like people espousing virtue and honor on the world of the Dark Sun, that seems a little far fetched (or might result in a similar problem of Paladins in Ravenloft.... a Paladin, or group of Paladins on Athas would be people with big, blaring neon signs to any of the SK's if/when they get near the SK controlled cities, asking to be put out of their misery). The class just doesn't fit every game setting (I've never been fond of the Paladin as a class, and since the advent of d20, have always been looking for a workable PrC equivalent, something where there could be variations for any of the Lawful alignments).
#9 zombiegleemax Sep 04, 2003 11:55:24	Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm (I've never been fond of the Paladin as a class, and since the advent of d20, have always been looking for a workable PrC equivalent, something where there could be variations for any of the Lawful alignments). Lookup the champion class in Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. Paladins done right. Still not sure they would work in Dark sun, but they are cool enough for standard settings.
#10 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Sep 04, 2003 18:28:47	Actually, I like the Knight classes from the new DLCS. 3 PrC's each for solamnia and neraka, expands upon the paladin and blackguard ideas, however with a bit of adjustment I can see similar methods used to produce a "knighthood" for lawful good, neutral or evil characters, possibly even different ones for different deities. Haven't looked at the Arcana Unearthed at all.
#11 Cyrian Sep 05, 2003 4:35:08	I actually wrote up an Elemental Paladin prestige class about a year and a half ago. I put it together pretty quickly so I'd hardly consider it well written and it's probably balanced worse than a fat kid on a see saw, but I can post it up again if anyone's interested.
#12 gforce99 Sep 05, 2003 12:36:09	I'm interested. Now, does a Athasian Paladin aka Good/Noble Knight, have to serve a specific Element?
#13 Cyrian Sep 05, 2003 17:35:30	Alrighty, here it is. Keep in mind though that this was written last spring, using whatever the current iteration of the DS3 rules were at the time, and before D&D 3.5 was a blip on the radar. And like I said, I just just threw this out in a couple hours, so some parts are not very good. If anyone wants to flesh it out or something though feel free. It's based off of the idea of the war between the Elements and Para-elements described in EAFW. Elemental Paladin: In a dying world ravaged by magic, where the very elements themselves are dying, special steps must be taken. With the growing power of the para-elements the Elemental Lords must take new measures to insure their survival, and drive out their usurping children. These steps are the Elemental Paladins. These rare warriors are the ultimate in devotion to their patron element, and a bane on any who would serve the pare-elements. Their sole reason for existence is the destruction of the para-elements and those who worship them. When the Elemental Lords see a cleric who they deem worthy to take up the Paladin mantle, they send him a dream showing the front lines of the war on their Elemental Plane against whatever two para-elements are associated with it. This causes the cleric great rage, and he feels the need to slay a cleric of one of the para-elements. When this is done, he has proved his devotion, and he is granted the powers of the Elemental Paladin. However, since the para-element of Rain has allied itself with its elemental parents, and is in just as dire straights as they are, it is generally not looked kindly upon by the Air and Water lords to kill a priest of Rain. Therefore Air and Water clerics must seek out a Sun or Silt cleric to destroy. Elemental Paladins are so rare, that the common person does not even know they exist, and clerics will be lucky if they see one once or twice in their lifetime. Para-elemental clerics fear these warriors like no others, and always watch over their shoulders. There have been instances where groups of para-elemental clerics have banded together to destroy a bothersome Paladin. Whether they succeed or not, the number of para-elemental clerics in the world is always fewer after such instances. Hit Die: d10 Requirements: To qualify to become an Elemental Paladin, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria. Alignment: Due to the very nature of the elements, the Paladin must be neutral with regards to good and evil. Base Attack Bonus: +7 Special: The prospective Paladin must have the ability to gate in his patron element. Special: The Paladin must kill a para-elemental cleric of at least equal level to his own. Special: The Paladin must not have any levels of wizard. Arcane magic is the reason why the Elements are as weak as they are, and they will not have their champions using it, even if they are Preservers. Class Skills: Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (para-elements) (Int), Ride (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha) Class Features: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Elemental Paladins are proficient in simple and martial weapon, and light and medium armor. Base attack bonus and saves: As Paladin in the PHB. Spells: For the purpose of spells progression add the paladin’s level to levels of cleric. Smite Para-elemental: Acquired at 1st level, as Smite from the PHB against monsters of the types of para-elements the Paladin’s patron dominates. Elemental Immunity(Ex): At 1st level the Paladin is able to ignore the presence of his patron element for a number of rounds equal to his Paladin level, thus Air paladins can go without breathing or brave a hurricane, earth paladins can move through solid rock, fire paladins are not affected by fire, and water paladins may move through water without resistance and breath under water. Cleanse: At 2nd level the Paladin has the ability to cleanse and purify the para-elements that his patron element dominates, separating it into its two constituent elements. He is able to cleanse 10ft^3 x his Paladin level. He may also join with another Paladin of the same element, and each are able to cleanse 1.5x what they normally would be able to, thus tripling the amount one would be able to cleanse. Magma is separated into a raging fire storm that burns out after 1d6 x the number of cubic ft cleansed rounds, leaving behind solid rock. Rain clouds drop all their moisture at once and then disperse, but for the reasons stated above, cleansing a rain storm is not looked kindly upon. Silt is packed into mud as the water beneath it rises to the surface. For sun a small, thin bank of clouds is summoned that dims the sun’s radiance for the character’s Paladin level x 1d10 rounds. Element Walk (Su): At 3rd level the Paladin can “walk” on his patron element, giving air paladins the effects of the Air Walk spell, and he may “ride” strong winds/hurricanes/tornados with a successful Ride check DC 20; Earth paladins get the effect of Spider Climb, as well as being able to walk on mud and quicksand without the danger of sinking, fire paladins are able to climb and tread of top of flames; and water paladins can walk on water, as well as climb waterfalls with a successful Climb check, DC 20. To use this ability required constant concentration, however. If concentration is broken for any reason the ability fails. Summon Elemental Beast (Sp): At 4th level the Paladin gains the ability to summon an elemental beast of his patron element. Due to the relationship the Paladin has with the elemental lords, he suffers no chance of the beast turning on him, but because of the great pain elemental beasts suffer when summoned to Athas, Paladins who keep them longer than necessary may incur the wrath of the elemental lords. Para-elemental immunity(Ex): Acquired once at 5th level, and again at 7th level, the paladin chooses one of the para-elements his patron dominates to become immune to. Works the same as elemental immunity. Para-elemental Walk(Su): Acquired at 6th level, and again at 8th level, the paladin chooses one of the para-elements his patron dominates to “walk”. Works the same as Elemental Walk. For rain, the paladin may walk up a rain storm at a 45 degree angle, or climb straight up the rain drops with a successful Climb check, DC 15, as well as walk on the storm clouds; for sun the paladin may walk or climb up rays of sun. Open elemental portal(Sp): At 9th level the Paladin is able to open a 2ft square portal once per day to his patron element’s plane, allowing the pure element to pour through. The portal stays open for one hour, and may be dispelled by the paladin at any time before that. Drake mount: At 10th level the Paladin has garnered such praise from the Elemental Lords that they summon an Elemental Drake for his mount. This is just a normal drake, not an enhanced animal like a normal Paladin’s mount. Ex-Paladins: Once a Paladin has chosen this class, he may not take levels in any other class, or the Elemental Lords deem him unworthy and remove all benefits from the class, including spells he gained from Paladin levels.
#14 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 1:32:26	Seems way over powered. Drake mount? That's one heck of a fighting companion. Tweak a few other aspects down a bit (like the additional benefits of elemental walk and such or even para elemental immunity since that's akin to giving a regular paladin immunity to undead), change the name to war priest, elemental champion, or some such and you may just have something workable. Now, does a Athasian Paladin aka Good/Noble Knight, have to serve a specific Element I think that there is something your missing, Geforce, or at least something not very likely to garner any support. Even looking at at Cyrian's PrC, the requirement he lists is for the 'paladin' to be of neutral alignment. See, at least in the view set down in the rulebooks (although your home campaign may differ), there's no place for a good vs evil aspect. The elemental planes and their alien and enigmatic rulers don't give a rats behind about good and evil. They want to propigate, at any costs. They want the entire world to be inundated with their element, and only their element . . . damn be all the others. Even the element of water, commonly seen as one of the good guys of the elemental planes, would jump at the chance to flood Athas with oceans, killing every living thing in the process. Life and death, good and evil. These things are considered petty by the elements. They need no viruous champions to fight for their cause. As for a paladin to oppose the SKs? The simple question is where does the paladin draw his 'holy' powers from? On Athas, there's nowhere for them to get their divine like abilities. As said, the elemental planes don't care about the SKs except as either a tool to use or a barrier to be eliminated. The Spirits of the Land? They have their druidic champions already. They too care little for virtue, honor, and nobility. They are wild and untammed forces of the natural world. Honor has no meaning to them. They would not care if their champion shoots an arrow in a defiler's back or challenges him up front (in fact, they would rather the first happen since its the natural way to strike from stealth and surprise). There has to be some place that the 'paladin' draws his strength from. For that, you need one of several things. Either a new plane of existence that is the source of 'holy' energy. Something that is the opposite of the grey or the black. Or gods, although I'm not touching that with a twenty foot datchi club. Or some other source of 'holy' energy that I simply cannot think of myself. As it stands, one of the reasons why there are no champions of good is that survival takes precendence of good and evil on Athas. Even in the core rules, it is stressed that on Athas, the ends may very well justify the means. In order to do good deeds one must survive from day to day, and that fight for survival may very well require the most noble of persons to perform some less than noble acts.
#15 gforce99 Sep 07, 2003 16:18:56	ok don't flame me, but.... what about using the anti-SK Ornsis of New Kurn as a source of "nobilty and righteousness" I know its revised stuff, but just a thought. It would basically be allowing a Avangion the same powers a SK has, which Ornsis should have since he was created using the Dark Lens too.
#16 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 16:31:22	I'll be honest.. I never read any of the above posted info. I just wanted to say that I don't think Paladin's belong in Dark Sun. The image of a paladin to me has always been armour clad dude on horse praying to god and being as all 'holy & righteous' as possible. This image just dosen't fit with Dark Sun well. It could be remodified a whole ton.. but then you don't really have a 'Paladin' anymore do you? I'd just leave them out.. work on some other material, and tell the PC's "no" (period). Then again.. I can be a hardass. heh
#17 Cyrian Sep 07, 2003 17:16:12	If Oronis had paladins that might risk exposing himself to the other sorceror kings that he's a goodytwoshoes now. They'd probably wonder just where these "good" templars came from all of the sudden.
#18 gforce99 Sep 07, 2003 17:18:49	I realize that many feel Paladins don't belong in Athas. I figured thats why Troy and company didnt include then in the original game. But my question was IF there were Paladins, how would they work, where would their powers be from... I appreciate all the thoughtful comments and I hope it helps out other players and DMs. Take care
#19 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 20:40:03	what about using the anti-SK Ornsis of New Kurn as a source of "nobilty and righteousness Although I'm unsure if this is canon or just the Kurn articles on the Athas.org site, Orinis seems to rely on being descreet, and his 'templars' follow suit. They are spies, infiltrators, masters perhaps of disguise and trickery. I highly doubt that they would even be considered your atypical group of good guys as any secret organization learns to do what must be done to keep the secret, even if at times this is not the most 'good' of ideas. Orinis may be good, but he's got one black history to go along with it. I just don't see him as the paragon of virtue. In New Kurn, there are no templars as they are not needed. New Kurn runs and polices itself. Old Kurn may have those who 'pose' as templars, to fool the few visitors to the city, but these may be anything from scouts and guards to commoners who are merely acting as templars.