Elves and the WoHS - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Elves and the WoHS

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Sep 03, 2003 16:58:05 I always wondered about the Silvanesti and their reationship with the WoHS after Dalamar became head of the black robes. How would the Silvanesti (and also the Qualinesti) view an organisation that so openly accepts and rewards a Dark Elf. From what I understand being proclaimed a Dark Elf is one of the most dire punishments that can be delivered to an elf.

I wonder what the relationship between the WoHS and the elves will be in the AoM now that Dalamar seems to be the default Head of the Wizards?

Arandur
#2
Charles_Phipps
Sep 03, 2003 21:04:13 The fact remains that the elves have always known that the Orders of High Sorcery accept EVIL members of their order into their ranks openly anyway. The Dark Elf aspect was always there along with Ogres, Half-Ogres, murderous maruading humanoids, Fistdantanilus, and the worst sort of men imaginable.

However the fact remains that it is to this very organization that all the Good and Neutral wizards of the Elves also belong.

Elves don't like Dark Elves its true but they don't like Black Robes either, however the magicians of the Elves accept they are a necessity to preserving magic

Besides Dalamar is preferred to be in PUBLIC I imagine than behind the scenes
#3
zombiegleemax
Sep 03, 2003 21:14:41 Yes but the elves (especially Silvanesti) are an uppity lot at the best of times and prone to looking down their noses at most other races. I would think that the fact the Wizards of High Sorcery would place a Dark Elf as one of the Orders leaders would be a grave insult to them. It is one thing that they accept evil into their ranks but I imagine it is a totally different argument that they embrace a Dark Elf so openly.

Personally I would have thought the Elves would have preferred Dalamar to recede into anonymity rather than such a punlic figure. It draws attention to Dark Elves and the mistakes of the Silvanesti, something they plainly dislike to be reminded of, not to mention the disturbing role model Dalamar in that position may become to other 'rebellious' elves.

Arandur
#4
zombiegleemax
Sep 03, 2003 22:09:07
Originally posted by Arandur
Personally I would have thought the Elves would have preferred Dalamar to recede into anonymity rather than such a punlic figure. It draws attention to Dark Elves and the mistakes of the Silvanesti, something they plainly dislike to be reminded of, not to mention the disturbing role model Dalamar in that position may become to other 'rebellious' elves.

Arandur

When an elf is marked as a dark elf in Silvanesti, his name is stricken from the birth records and he technically no longer exists. So, by definition they don't even know who Dalamar is.

On a more practical level, you're right, of course--obscurity would have been better as far as they were concerned. Still, I don't think it changes the elves feeling of the WoHS much: the laws of magic are respected by the elves, and it's simply that they don't allow evil in *THEIR* society. Outside of Silvanesti is another matter entirely, of course, since the whole world is evil and responsible for the Cataclysm anyway...
#5
zombiegleemax
Sep 04, 2003 7:34:43 It's more a matter of Dalamar being so powerful that there's really nowhere else to put him but at the head of the Black Robes. As far as the Conclave's concerned, there's no real choice involved - it's less like 'embracing' a dark elf, more like 'acknolwedging' him.

Which doesn't mean the elves aren't angry, it just means that, as often is the case, there's no actual foundation for that anger, so they can't do a whole lot about it. Except crank out some more white robes.
#6
Charles_Phipps
Sep 04, 2003 15:25:05 But really they can't give up white robed magic users and white robes are the only ones who actually probably know about it that much.

The white robes would furthermore argue that they arn't EMBRACING him....the man is the head of the Black Robes after all....

Ironically it would probably be more offensive if a dark elf became head of the white robes

In any case nobody likes Dalamar but its just a stick in their craw, not something that the elves really want to damage their already troubled relationship with the sorcery towers over
#7
ferratus
Sep 04, 2003 16:41:26 Frankly, I would have liked some guidelines about how dark elves are handled post-elven exile. The DLCS only covers when they actually had a homeland.
#8
zombiegleemax
Sep 04, 2003 18:57:25 I can see several distinct possibilities for how an individual Silvanesti might view the Dalamar situation.

--In the eyes of his people he is a non-person, all-but erased from existence. If a Silvanesti wanted to be arrogant, they'd view him as worthless, or so broken he's beyond fixing and better forgotten. I get the feeling the "goodness" of the Silvanesti makes them prone to ignoring serious problems simply because they are "Silvanesti".
"He is not worth my time, I have better things to do."

--At the same time, a less haughty Silvanesti might simply understand Dalamar and the Black Robes for what they are: the other side of the coin. There would also be bitterness here, but it would be more because he is evil and the Silvanesti in question is good.
"I hate him because it is my place to hate him."

--Still, and this is what I think Arandur is getting at, there might be a seething hatred towards him because he is the crack in the mirror. He's corrupt and his corruption will infect others.
"I hate him more than anything, because his darkness reflects upon me."

I get the feeling most Silvanesti would hold the first opinion, some, especially religious-types and a lot of Elven Wizards of High Sorcery would hold the second, and only a few zealots would hold the third. Otherwise, why wouldn't they have killed Dalamar, or any other Dark Elf for that matter, just as soon as cast him out.

Of course, given the displaced nature of the Silvanesti at the end of the War of Souls, more of Dalamar’s former kin might be having hostile thoughts. The Silvanesti might fall back on whatever aggressive feelings they have to help define themselves.

Cheers,
Maglaurus
#9
zombiegleemax
Sep 04, 2003 22:34:09 They might also hate him becasue they are jeaolous of both of his power and his noterity.
#10
zombiegleemax
Sep 21, 2003 0:54:22 They might just look at it as, He's an elf, a silvanesti elf. Though dark, the fact that he is head of the Black Robes again proves silvanesti elves, even their outcasts, are superior to everyone else. One more point for silvanesti arrogance.
#11
AvaronGansdell
Sep 22, 2003 0:06:00 It's also important to note that regardless of how they feel about him are any of them willing to go against the head of the order of the black robes and master of the orders of high sorcery?
#12
zombiegleemax
Jul 07, 2004 15:45:40 From what was revealed in Wizards Conclave, it didnt seem that any Silvanesti mages answered the call of Solinari to come to Wayreth. Those elves that did were Qualanesti and they didnt seem to have a problem with Dalamar.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 03, 2003 16:58:05	I always wondered about the Silvanesti and their reationship with the WoHS after Dalamar became head of the black robes. How would the Silvanesti (and also the Qualinesti) view an organisation that so openly accepts and rewards a Dark Elf. From what I understand being proclaimed a Dark Elf is one of the most dire punishments that can be delivered to an elf. I wonder what the relationship between the WoHS and the elves will be in the AoM now that Dalamar seems to be the default Head of the Wizards? Arandur
#2 Charles_Phipps Sep 03, 2003 21:04:13	The fact remains that the elves have always known that the Orders of High Sorcery accept EVIL members of their order into their ranks openly anyway. The Dark Elf aspect was always there along with Ogres, Half-Ogres, murderous maruading humanoids, Fistdantanilus, and the worst sort of men imaginable. However the fact remains that it is to this very organization that all the Good and Neutral wizards of the Elves also belong. Elves don't like Dark Elves its true but they don't like Black Robes either, however the magicians of the Elves accept they are a necessity to preserving magic Besides Dalamar is preferred to be in PUBLIC I imagine than behind the scenes
#3 zombiegleemax Sep 03, 2003 21:14:41	Yes but the elves (especially Silvanesti) are an uppity lot at the best of times and prone to looking down their noses at most other races. I would think that the fact the Wizards of High Sorcery would place a Dark Elf as one of the Orders leaders would be a grave insult to them. It is one thing that they accept evil into their ranks but I imagine it is a totally different argument that they embrace a Dark Elf so openly. Personally I would have thought the Elves would have preferred Dalamar to recede into anonymity rather than such a punlic figure. It draws attention to Dark Elves and the mistakes of the Silvanesti, something they plainly dislike to be reminded of, not to mention the disturbing role model Dalamar in that position may become to other 'rebellious' elves. Arandur
#4 zombiegleemax Sep 03, 2003 22:09:07	Originally posted by Arandur Personally I would have thought the Elves would have preferred Dalamar to recede into anonymity rather than such a punlic figure. It draws attention to Dark Elves and the mistakes of the Silvanesti, something they plainly dislike to be reminded of, not to mention the disturbing role model Dalamar in that position may become to other 'rebellious' elves. Arandur When an elf is marked as a dark elf in Silvanesti, his name is stricken from the birth records and he technically no longer exists. So, by definition they don't even know who Dalamar is. On a more practical level, you're right, of course--obscurity would have been better as far as they were concerned. Still, I don't think it changes the elves feeling of the WoHS much: the laws of magic are respected by the elves, and it's simply that they don't allow evil in THEIR society. Outside of Silvanesti is another matter entirely, of course, since the whole world is evil and responsible for the Cataclysm anyway...
#5 zombiegleemax Sep 04, 2003 7:34:43	It's more a matter of Dalamar being so powerful that there's really nowhere else to put him but at the head of the Black Robes. As far as the Conclave's concerned, there's no real choice involved - it's less like 'embracing' a dark elf, more like 'acknolwedging' him. Which doesn't mean the elves aren't angry, it just means that, as often is the case, there's no actual foundation for that anger, so they can't do a whole lot about it. Except crank out some more white robes.
#6 Charles_Phipps Sep 04, 2003 15:25:05	But really they can't give up white robed magic users and white robes are the only ones who actually probably know about it that much. The white robes would furthermore argue that they arn't EMBRACING him....the man is the head of the Black Robes after all.... Ironically it would probably be more offensive if a dark elf became head of the white robes In any case nobody likes Dalamar but its just a stick in their craw, not something that the elves really want to damage their already troubled relationship with the sorcery towers over
#7 ferratus Sep 04, 2003 16:41:26	Frankly, I would have liked some guidelines about how dark elves are handled post-elven exile. The DLCS only covers when they actually had a homeland.
#8 zombiegleemax Sep 04, 2003 18:57:25	I can see several distinct possibilities for how an individual Silvanesti might view the Dalamar situation. --In the eyes of his people he is a non-person, all-but erased from existence. If a Silvanesti wanted to be arrogant, they'd view him as worthless, or so broken he's beyond fixing and better forgotten. I get the feeling the "goodness" of the Silvanesti makes them prone to ignoring serious problems simply because they are "Silvanesti". "He is not worth my time, I have better things to do." --At the same time, a less haughty Silvanesti might simply understand Dalamar and the Black Robes for what they are: the other side of the coin. There would also be bitterness here, but it would be more because he is evil and the Silvanesti in question is good. "I hate him because it is my place to hate him." --Still, and this is what I think Arandur is getting at, there might be a seething hatred towards him because he is the crack in the mirror. He's corrupt and his corruption will infect others. "I hate him more than anything, because his darkness reflects upon me." I get the feeling most Silvanesti would hold the first opinion, some, especially religious-types and a lot of Elven Wizards of High Sorcery would hold the second, and only a few zealots would hold the third. Otherwise, why wouldn't they have killed Dalamar, or any other Dark Elf for that matter, just as soon as cast him out. Of course, given the displaced nature of the Silvanesti at the end of the War of Souls, more of Dalamar’s former kin might be having hostile thoughts. The Silvanesti might fall back on whatever aggressive feelings they have to help define themselves. Cheers, Maglaurus
#9 zombiegleemax Sep 04, 2003 22:34:09	They might also hate him becasue they are jeaolous of both of his power and his noterity.
#10 zombiegleemax Sep 21, 2003 0:54:22	They might just look at it as, He's an elf, a silvanesti elf. Though dark, the fact that he is head of the Black Robes again proves silvanesti elves, even their outcasts, are superior to everyone else. One more point for silvanesti arrogance.
#11 AvaronGansdell Sep 22, 2003 0:06:00	It's also important to note that regardless of how they feel about him are any of them willing to go against the head of the order of the black robes and master of the orders of high sorcery?
#12 zombiegleemax Jul 07, 2004 15:45:40	From what was revealed in Wizards Conclave, it didnt seem that any Silvanesti mages answered the call of Solinari to come to Wayreth. Those elves that did were Qualanesti and they didnt seem to have a problem with Dalamar.