Steel coins - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Steel coins

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Sep 04, 2003 4:54:46 You know, I just now had an interesting thought that's never occurred to me before: why steel pieces?

This breaks things on many levels. Coinage made from raw materials? Why hasn't anyone gotten the clever idea to just melt down a full suit of platemail and live like a king?
#2
sweetmeats
Sep 04, 2003 6:11:05 I don't think it matters. There comes times when you have to let your imagination in and ignore something like that. Its for flavour not realism.

I know that sounds a bit *****y, but I don't mean it like that.
#3
zombiegleemax
Sep 04, 2003 7:18:01 'Cause coins still have a seal that, if rulers are smart, can't be duplicated.

I agree, it's kinda odd that they use steel pieces... but that's the Krynnish mentality, I guess. Or at least Ansalon. A different meaning for 'precious metals'.

I figure it's sorta like paper money, in that it represents something significantly more valuable than itself (in DL's case, more steel), and yet it's nigh impossible to replicate.

Or something.
#4
lenin97
Sep 04, 2003 7:42:26 I was always under the impression that steel was valuable BECAUSE it could be melted down and made into swords and that gold was less valuable because it had no practical application.
#5
cam_banks
Sep 04, 2003 8:31:23 I forget who it was who described it this way, but it works for me. The metals used in the coinage of Ansalon are more or less in order of their usefulness and application. Steel before iron, bronze before silver, silver before copper, etc. Gold has no real value to a world that had crawled from the wreckage of the Cataclysm. Steel, which is valuable for its use in tools, armor, and weapons, is seen as the ideal currency.

Think of it like this. Most trade is still handled by a barter system. You take in 100 steel pieces worth of goods or offer 100 steel pieces worth of services in return for 100 steel pieces of another good or service. The steel standard represents that universal trade token. You can either carry around a steel breastplate, or a sack of coins. Melt down the coins and make a breastplate, and you lose currency to barter with. Melt down the breastplate to make coins, and you lose the protection of the breastplate.

Cheers,
Cam
#6
kalanth
Sep 04, 2003 8:34:59 I usually tell my players that the cost of a steel weapon or steel armor was going to be about double, and the cost of an iron, bronze or other such metal would be the normal cost.
#7
zombiegleemax
Sep 04, 2003 19:35:52 In the Annotated Chronicles, Tracy Hickman writes: "I had wanted steel - a far more useful metal in this time than gold - to be the basis of exchange in the world. I wanted to make a point about the ephemeral nature of wealth, but the concept never did across well... or work for the game either, for that matter."

Perhaps the reason it never "did come across well" is that, of course, gold is so much easier to melt and form than steel - which is precisely the reason why many different cultures used it as the medium of exchange in real history. And when steel is so valuable anyway, it would probably not be used in coins for this very reason, but all go into armor and weapons only... Given these considerations, the whole "steel coin" thing is a bit silly.

On the other hand, it's one of those things that make Krynn different, one that adds "flavor" to the world. And since fantasy is about imagination rather than all-out realism - why not have steel coins after all?
#8
ferratus
Sep 04, 2003 23:12:13
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Melt down the coins and make a breastplate, and you lose currency to barter with. Melt down the breastplate to make coins, and you lose the protection of the breastplate.

The sad fact is though that everyone who has ever worked enough to get their hands dirty knows that melting steel down to produce tools or weapons makes an extremely bad (and particularly brittle) tool or weapon. The best steel is made by carbonizing the object at the moment that it is forged.

If the trade currency was 5 lb. iron bars, then your analogy would certainly make sense.

The only way to make steel coins work is to make them a representative token of a unit of wealth. Basically, a bunch of merchants in Palanthas have coins which are clipped, mixed with lead, counterfitted, and generally worthless. This causes massive inflation and makes trade impossible. So to solve this problem they choose a metal that is hard to clip, and hard to work with (and thus hard to counterfit). For this they enlist the help of some of the greatest smiths, the dwarves of Kaolyn.

Thus, the city of Palanthas uses steel tokens equal to one gold peice within their city. The economy stabilizes, and the idea spreads to their trading partners, namely Ergoth, Abanasinia, Blodeheim, Saifum, etc. till the only ones using gold coins anymore are raiding brutes such as the Ogres, or the isolationist Silvanesti. As a consequence, gold becomes worthless as anything else but ornamentation. Steel replaces gold.

It is the only explanation I've found that satisfies my players, who otherwise have their suspension of disbeleif broken (being good blue-collar types).
#9
zombiegleemax
Sep 04, 2003 23:18:49 Didn't the TotL boxed set include steel costs on the equipment lists that were a lot more than the listed prices in the Player's Handbook (because they were in steel)? I seem to recall beginning with more steel pieces but weapons costing more to buy(in steel) in 2nd edition TotL. Can anyone check this if they have the 2nd Ed. book handy?

Arandur

edit: If I did remember correctly I'll write out the lists tonight when I get home from work and send it to either DL.com or the Nexus on Monday.
#10
talinthas
Sep 04, 2003 23:33:35 please see the first bertrem's guide for the best official explanation of this subject.
see also the section in the DLCS.
#11
Granakrs
Sep 05, 2003 1:19:20 Man. All this again. Did i ever tell you a story of why i thought steel was a good medium for money? it started with the Cataclysm. Trade disappeared. Plague killed everything. At some point, I talked about being a farmer who actually started making a living because i could farm. To survive, people traded what possessions they had, because money meant nothing. I traded my donkey for a neighbor's daughter. I gained more stuff from trading food for other things, but I need steel for plows and weapons, to harvest more food and protect myself. So steel, the material, was valued, and I traded for it. I created a farming empire that needed more plows and more weapons. Eventually i used the weapons to conquer enemies. By that time, an economy was built up. I started trading in steel pieces (bits of scrap I couldn't reuse because of the brittleness inherent from reheating steel instead of iron). Steel pieces came into existence. Other places needs steel, the material, even in scraps. Others started using steel pieces with my emblem on it to signify it's value as a unit of legal tender representing work. Finally as the huge empire built itself on the backs of farmers, Other nations switched to the Steel standard, as a way to represent their own value of work trading between the new empire and nations. The steel piece may not represent it's worth as material, but it works as a value of economic trade. somewhere in all that, the wife i bought for a donkey, had her revenge on her father for trading her in the first place.

The point of that story, is that Steel, is valued In some places it still valued as material. In more modern places, it's valued as a currency, like the Dollar bill. Above all, when you go from place to place, you can always be assured that steel pieces have value, and you can still trade/buy stuff for steel. That's why it made sense to use it, and why it's still used. Who knows, maybe Krynnfolks will go back to gold or something. Maybe a nation will grow powerful enough so that it's gold piece is the standard everyone else goes by. And maybe then everyone will be floating gold pieces. However, I tend to think paper arrive before gold, and the Ergothan Dollar Bill will be worth 100 Steel pennies.

Granak Red-Silver
#12
morgion-s_claw
Sep 05, 2003 2:35:54 1. I think the fact that gold was used pratically in all the near East, Europe and northern Africa (well, Egypt in the first place) is linked to its sacred character as directly put in context with the gods, especially the sun. I'd rather not deduce its use from its workability and its easy melting... On Krynn, there is one problem of coinage: Gold coins won't ever rust, they are forever! The most steel-types used throughout history are - unless I'm totally mislead - NOT stainless (I don't know, but I think to remember, that has something to do with the temperature and the quantity of oxygen plus the carbonization... It was the Bessemer-Pie (?) in the late 19. century who brought us high quality steel) Therefore: Dragons would always scorn those rusting pieces of scrap over the shiny wonderful durable gold coins
I'd say only the dwarves are able to forge stainless high quality steel (and perhaps in another fashion by means of magic the elves). Human steel tending to be crap or good quality rarely reaching dwarven standards...

2. Just a question: Couldn't you gain a fine metal with cutting re-heated steel with another softer metal? At least you'd gain a metal for tools and the like if not for high quality weaponry and armory...
Nonetheless, a full suit of plate would always be more valuable than its mere worth of raw material (hey think about it, the DLCS costs more than paper and color!): The smith has invested some time to it and he will likewise get himself paid for it! But the trade of old weapons and scrap metal to a smith would be a fair trade!

Morgions Claw

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 04, 2003 4:54:46	You know, I just now had an interesting thought that's never occurred to me before: why steel pieces? This breaks things on many levels. Coinage made from raw materials? Why hasn't anyone gotten the clever idea to just melt down a full suit of platemail and live like a king?
#2 sweetmeats Sep 04, 2003 6:11:05	I don't think it matters. There comes times when you have to let your imagination in and ignore something like that. Its for flavour not realism. I know that sounds a bit *****y, but I don't mean it like that.
#3 zombiegleemax Sep 04, 2003 7:18:01	'Cause coins still have a seal that, if rulers are smart, can't be duplicated. I agree, it's kinda odd that they use steel pieces... but that's the Krynnish mentality, I guess. Or at least Ansalon. A different meaning for 'precious metals'. I figure it's sorta like paper money, in that it represents something significantly more valuable than itself (in DL's case, more steel), and yet it's nigh impossible to replicate. Or something.
#4 lenin97 Sep 04, 2003 7:42:26	I was always under the impression that steel was valuable BECAUSE it could be melted down and made into swords and that gold was less valuable because it had no practical application.
#5 cam_banks Sep 04, 2003 8:31:23	I forget who it was who described it this way, but it works for me. The metals used in the coinage of Ansalon are more or less in order of their usefulness and application. Steel before iron, bronze before silver, silver before copper, etc. Gold has no real value to a world that had crawled from the wreckage of the Cataclysm. Steel, which is valuable for its use in tools, armor, and weapons, is seen as the ideal currency. Think of it like this. Most trade is still handled by a barter system. You take in 100 steel pieces worth of goods or offer 100 steel pieces worth of services in return for 100 steel pieces of another good or service. The steel standard represents that universal trade token. You can either carry around a steel breastplate, or a sack of coins. Melt down the coins and make a breastplate, and you lose currency to barter with. Melt down the breastplate to make coins, and you lose the protection of the breastplate. Cheers, Cam
#6 kalanth Sep 04, 2003 8:34:59	I usually tell my players that the cost of a steel weapon or steel armor was going to be about double, and the cost of an iron, bronze or other such metal would be the normal cost.
#7 zombiegleemax Sep 04, 2003 19:35:52	In the Annotated Chronicles, Tracy Hickman writes: "I had wanted steel - a far more useful metal in this time than gold - to be the basis of exchange in the world. I wanted to make a point about the ephemeral nature of wealth, but the concept never did across well... or work for the game either, for that matter." Perhaps the reason it never "did come across well" is that, of course, gold is so much easier to melt and form than steel - which is precisely the reason why many different cultures used it as the medium of exchange in real history. And when steel is so valuable anyway, it would probably not be used in coins for this very reason, but all go into armor and weapons only... Given these considerations, the whole "steel coin" thing is a bit silly. On the other hand, it's one of those things that make Krynn different, one that adds "flavor" to the world. And since fantasy is about imagination rather than all-out realism - why not have steel coins after all?
#8 ferratus Sep 04, 2003 23:12:13	Originally posted by Cam Banks Melt down the coins and make a breastplate, and you lose currency to barter with. Melt down the breastplate to make coins, and you lose the protection of the breastplate. The sad fact is though that everyone who has ever worked enough to get their hands dirty knows that melting steel down to produce tools or weapons makes an extremely bad (and particularly brittle) tool or weapon. The best steel is made by carbonizing the object at the moment that it is forged. If the trade currency was 5 lb. iron bars, then your analogy would certainly make sense. The only way to make steel coins work is to make them a representative token of a unit of wealth. Basically, a bunch of merchants in Palanthas have coins which are clipped, mixed with lead, counterfitted, and generally worthless. This causes massive inflation and makes trade impossible. So to solve this problem they choose a metal that is hard to clip, and hard to work with (and thus hard to counterfit). For this they enlist the help of some of the greatest smiths, the dwarves of Kaolyn. Thus, the city of Palanthas uses steel tokens equal to one gold peice within their city. The economy stabilizes, and the idea spreads to their trading partners, namely Ergoth, Abanasinia, Blodeheim, Saifum, etc. till the only ones using gold coins anymore are raiding brutes such as the Ogres, or the isolationist Silvanesti. As a consequence, gold becomes worthless as anything else but ornamentation. Steel replaces gold. It is the only explanation I've found that satisfies my players, who otherwise have their suspension of disbeleif broken (being good blue-collar types).
#9 zombiegleemax Sep 04, 2003 23:18:49	Didn't the TotL boxed set include steel costs on the equipment lists that were a lot more than the listed prices in the Player's Handbook (because they were in steel)? I seem to recall beginning with more steel pieces but weapons costing more to buy(in steel) in 2nd edition TotL. Can anyone check this if they have the 2nd Ed. book handy? Arandur edit: If I did remember correctly I'll write out the lists tonight when I get home from work and send it to either DL.com or the Nexus on Monday.
#10 talinthas Sep 04, 2003 23:33:35	please see the first bertrem's guide for the best official explanation of this subject. see also the section in the DLCS.
#11 Granakrs Sep 05, 2003 1:19:20	Man. All this again. Did i ever tell you a story of why i thought steel was a good medium for money? it started with the Cataclysm. Trade disappeared. Plague killed everything. At some point, I talked about being a farmer who actually started making a living because i could farm. To survive, people traded what possessions they had, because money meant nothing. I traded my donkey for a neighbor's daughter. I gained more stuff from trading food for other things, but I need steel for plows and weapons, to harvest more food and protect myself. So steel, the material, was valued, and I traded for it. I created a farming empire that needed more plows and more weapons. Eventually i used the weapons to conquer enemies. By that time, an economy was built up. I started trading in steel pieces (bits of scrap I couldn't reuse because of the brittleness inherent from reheating steel instead of iron). Steel pieces came into existence. Other places needs steel, the material, even in scraps. Others started using steel pieces with my emblem on it to signify it's value as a unit of legal tender representing work. Finally as the huge empire built itself on the backs of farmers, Other nations switched to the Steel standard, as a way to represent their own value of work trading between the new empire and nations. The steel piece may not represent it's worth as material, but it works as a value of economic trade. somewhere in all that, the wife i bought for a donkey, had her revenge on her father for trading her in the first place. The point of that story, is that Steel, is valued In some places it still valued as material. In more modern places, it's valued as a currency, like the Dollar bill. Above all, when you go from place to place, you can always be assured that steel pieces have value, and you can still trade/buy stuff for steel. That's why it made sense to use it, and why it's still used. Who knows, maybe Krynnfolks will go back to gold or something. Maybe a nation will grow powerful enough so that it's gold piece is the standard everyone else goes by. And maybe then everyone will be floating gold pieces. However, I tend to think paper arrive before gold, and the Ergothan Dollar Bill will be worth 100 Steel pennies. Granak Red-Silver
#12 morgion-s_claw Sep 05, 2003 2:35:54	1. I think the fact that gold was used pratically in all the near East, Europe and northern Africa (well, Egypt in the first place) is linked to its sacred character as directly put in context with the gods, especially the sun. I'd rather not deduce its use from its workability and its easy melting... On Krynn, there is one problem of coinage: Gold coins won't ever rust, they are forever! The most steel-types used throughout history are - unless I'm totally mislead - NOT stainless (I don't know, but I think to remember, that has something to do with the temperature and the quantity of oxygen plus the carbonization... It was the Bessemer-Pie (?) in the late 19. century who brought us high quality steel) Therefore: Dragons would always scorn those rusting pieces of scrap over the shiny wonderful durable gold coins I'd say only the dwarves are able to forge stainless high quality steel (and perhaps in another fashion by means of magic the elves). Human steel tending to be crap or good quality rarely reaching dwarven standards... 2. Just a question: Couldn't you gain a fine metal with cutting re-heated steel with another softer metal? At least you'd gain a metal for tools and the like if not for high quality weaponry and armory... Nonetheless, a full suit of plate would always be more valuable than its mere worth of raw material (hey think about it, the DLCS costs more than paper and color!): The smith has invested some time to it and he will likewise get himself paid for it! But the trade of old weapons and scrap metal to a smith would be a fair trade! Morgions Claw