Feel free to tell me I'm wrong (though agreeing with me is always good too), but tell me why too if you would. As an aside, anyone else think Dalamar should be considered a renegade for turning his back on Nuitari?Things I loved:
1. Mystics. "Cleric-light." Not as powerful, but better for you.
2. Crown Knights with armored mobility. Rock on.
3. Nice quest in the back (the sword one, the other one was ok).
4. Excellent timeline.
5. The fact the book was even printed
6. Incorporation of sorcerers into the story-line.
Things I hated:
1. NO INDEX (wth? The book just ends, for cripes sake).
2. Too strong casting ability of Solamnic Knights. Why even bother playing a cleric? Better switch to every OTHER level (at least) for spell ability, even with the xp penalty these guys are hell on wheels.
3. Sub par art. While the cover art and the centaur pic are gorgeous, if I had to use one word for the overall art tone in this book, I'd say Crap. If I had to use two words, I'd say Crap twice.
4. Not a big deal, but I did find a chart that was off and a few grammar errors, errata will catch that stuff.
5. Non existent Heroes of the Heart. They were mentioned, what, once? In passing in a timeline?
6. Rehashed magic items. If you aren't going to add new stuff, at least cover ALL the old stuff (no stats for arm of Ergoth).
7. Thorn Knights are required to know how to use plate mail but Skull Knights aren't?
8. Legion of Steel prestige class. Blah!
9. A foldout map of some type would have been a nice bonus (even a little one).
10. No character sheet? Could have put one where the FREAKIN' INDEX WAS SUPPOSED TO BE.
Ah well, that feels better, thanks for listening.
A single book with detailed enough information for any DL ignoramus to play or DM in th DL setting without screwing up the timeline or getting things completely off due to lack of information (like if they *forgot* to describe the WoHS, and you then start making wizard players left and right like Forgotten Realms and tottally mess up everything that is DL!).
Rules for the most common classes/races and PrC the players are likely to throw themselves at right away.
A good timeline so the DMs can set their campaign in any age without problems and finally...
All of the above in a single easy to use book, so none of the players or DM need to aquire a single DL novel in order to get answers to a question.
I'll post again once I've gotten my copy, and I'll tell you how my expectations held up.
cheers
Originally posted by mwbeeler
5. Non existent Knights of the Heart. They were mentioned, what, once? In passing in a timeline?
Actually, the Knights of the Heart was something I wrote up for the Nexus. Here's a link:
Knights of the Heart
Glad you liked the write-up, though.
Originally posted by mwbeeler
1. NO INDEX (wth? The book just ends, for cripes sake).
8. Legion of Steel prestige class. Blah!
9. A foldout map of some type would have been a nice bonus (even a little one).
1. Ok, I completly and totally agree with you on the index. Everytime I have a major thought I go to the back looking for my index and find. . . nothing. This is a big time oversite that really bothers me.
2. I loved the Legion of Steel. Maybe only three levels, but that is some of the most diverse and interesting three levels I have ever seen. Somewhat like a ranger, a lot like a bard, this PrC covers so much its crazy. And three levels, wow, that lets you go with a PrC and then move on to other things.
3. Oh god yes, a fold out map would have been great. If the DMG can have a fold out miniature board, why can't the DLCS have a fold out map of Ansalon.
One thing I would like to see in the future would be 3.5 reprints of things like the Otherlands book and, most especially, an official Taladas book. That is something that I would love to see.
As for the Legion of Steel class; I don't know, maybe I was expecting something more, "fighterish." Perhaps two different Legion class types would help flesh things out more.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Actually, the Knights of the Heart was something I wrote up for the Nexus. Here's a link:
Knights of the Heart
Glad you liked the write-up, though.
Whoops! You changed that to Heroes of the Heart. :embarrass
They're in Age of Mortals.
No retro maps of Krynn past that I saw.
No stats for Takhisis and Paladine for those of us who DONT like the damn Chaos War or just want to play in an earlier age (duh). Then they add it in the back and yes the lack of an index makes this decision hard to understand or even realize until you've read it cover to cover.
History line was changed slightly as regard the Dwarves, probably due to published books Im sure but still...I didn't read those books apparently!
Half Ogres? WHAT! Like Half Orcs wasn't gross enough to contemplate?
Okay, there you go!
Originally posted by Odde Bogodde
Also there are two new Legion of Steel PrC's in the age of mortals. One is a cleric type I believe.
Actually, there are three Legion PrCs in Age of Mortals: Legion Mystic, Legion Scout, and Legion Sorcerer.
The Steel Legionnaire in the DLCS functions as sort of a "gateway" PrC for the other classes.
Firstly, I'm most distrubed by the wide borders and giant type size. If these teo things were changed there would have been enough room for the invention tables or the kender weapons or maybe even the index.
I found 98% of the art to be lacking. The things depicted look nothing like what they are supposed to. (Minotaurs look like sissys or stupid cows, the KoS look like thugs, etc.)
Of course the map...
But with these things having been said. The information contained within the book is fantastic but (as the great Bill Cosby once said) if you present someone a fine steak and a big baked potato on a garbage can lid, the great food doesn't seem so appetizing.
I'll finish by saying that even though I'm 60% satisfied with the DLCS, it will not deter me from buying every other DL book that is printed. I love DL and DL in any form is better than DL in no form :D
Originally posted by Lenin97
I love that Dragonlance is back but I am also sorely disappointed by the book.
Firstly, I'm most distrubed by the wide borders and giant type size. If these teo things were changed there would have been enough room for the invention tables or the kender weapons or maybe even the index.
I have to ask - what makes you think that shrinking the borders would lead to more space in the book? The contents are going to take up as much space as they take up, whether there's less word count on a single page or more word count. If you shrunk the borders, you'd end up with a slimmer book. Keep in mind that the book was shrunk from an initial 320 page count to around 288 pages, and the borders would have been the same in both.
Layout, in other words, doesn't have anything to do with the content of the book itself, just how many pages it will eventually take up.
Cheers,
Cam
I would rather have a slimmer book with the same content, and pay less. Or more to the point, I'd rather have more content for a book of the same size.
That is what the complaints about the borders are all about.
Now, as to lack of content... It is a pretty sparse book for anything other than new rules on classes, races, and prestige classes. When I pick up the FRCS, I'm always finding new characters, new locations, and new story elements that I'd always overlooked before. I barely ever need to look at the DLCS, because there isn't really much that is going to influence my campaign. No political information, not much geographical information, no lists of major population centers (or population numbers), no new characters or NPC's, no major new story developments other than what has taken place in the novels (with Lord Ausric of course being the sole exception to both). The book as a whole is a pretty empty shell.
It more like "Dragonlance Adventures 3e" rather than a "Dragonlance Campaign Setting".
Hopefully it will be different with the Age of Mortals sourcebook.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
[b]I have to ask - what makes you think that shrinking the borders would lead to more space in the book?B]
Well, if a page is 8 1/2" by 11" and right off the bat I subtract 1 1/2" for a border the page is now 6" x 11". Now if you shrink the border to 3/4" or even get rid of it all. there is more space to use per page. Also if you shrink the text size to a comparble size as that located in the PHB. You have even more room for your use.
PS. Serena, I only recently (this week) got the book and was able to read through it. mwbeeler, started this thread to talk about his take on the book and we are mearly conversing about it. As for there being so many negative threads about the book, well maybe a lot of people find it lacking and feel that by posting thier thoughts and questions that they might find some answers or reasons why things are the way they are.
Again I'll reiterate something that I feel cannot be stressed enough. The one thing that brings us all here is a love for the greatest fantasy world this side of Middle Earth (sorry it's hard to beat the king). Most of us here will end up buying anything with the DL logo on it; so if a few people have problems with the book, I say let them talk about it a long as it remains and open discussion and not and all out war.
Originally posted by Lenin97
Well, if a page is 8 1/2" by 11" and right off the bat I subtract 1 1/2" for a border the page is now 6" x 11". Now if you shrink the border to 3/4" or even get rid of it all. there is more space to use per page. Also if you shrink the text size to a comparble size as that located in the PHB. You have even more room for your use.
Oh, I understand that, but layout comes at the end of the development process. Artwork and headers etc are added in, but saving space by trimming back the borders doesn't necessarily imply that more text will be added to the manuscript. What's more likely is that you'll pay more or less the same for a book that isn't as thick.
"Even more room" assumes that the book has a fixed page count, which in the case of the DLCS didn't seem to be a problem given the revision of that page count from 320 (the number of pages in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) to 288 (the number of pages in the DLCS). So, sure - you could have allowed for more text to appear on the pages, but given that all the material that ended up in the book was all that WOTC wanted to end up in the book, you would just have had a slimmer book.
I guess my point is - I don't think WOTC cut out material because of a lack of space taken up by borders. If they needed to fit more into the pages they'd have shrunk the font or cut back on artwork, I would imagine. But I'm not an expert on layout and production (and I like the borders), so I'll just back slowly away from this now.
Cheers,
Cam
Information was cut from the book. Then in order to give the book a size that would justify it $40 price tag it was stuffed with filler. By increasing the text size they increase the amount of space the edited info would take up. Then by adding large borders the size of the page is effectivly limited again increasing page count without adding anything to the book itself.
I had no hand in the creating of this book or the printing so I can only speculate. From the look and feel of the book, the above is the impression that I got from the book.
1. NO INDEX (wth? The book just ends, for cripes sake).
Agreed.
2. Too strong casting ability of Solamnic Knights. Why even bother playing a cleric? Better switch to every OTHER level (at least) for spell ability, even with the xp penalty these guys are hell on wheels.
I somewhat agree. I'm not upset about Knight of the Sword spell advancement. They're kinda supposed to be the casting types of the Solamnics. And even then they miss out on generally 3 casting levels because of Knight of the Crown. Sometimes more, if the character wants more fighter levels.
However, I have and still do find it odd that Knights of the Rose advance in casting quite as powerfully as they do. It takes away from the uniqueness of the Knights of the Sword and, as you mentioned, makes Solamnics huge on casting. That's my only complaint there - A slower progression for Knights of the Rose would be better, I think.
3. Sub par art. While the cover art and the centaur pic are gorgeous, if I had to use one word for the overall art tone in this book, I'd say Crap. If I had to use two words, I'd say Crap twice.
Actually, given two words, you used 'sub par', which is about on the money. It's not crap. It just doesn't fit, for the most part. THe pictures don't quite resemble what they ought to. But in and of itself, the art isn't horrible. Maybe art will improve. Who knows? I'm not going to worry overly much about this. At least it's new art.
4. Not a big deal, but I did find a chart that was off and a few grammar errors, errata will catch that stuff.
Not too big a deal, indeed. It's legible, and that's the important part to me.
5. Non existent Heroes of the Heart. They were mentioned, what, once? In passing in a timeline?
As Trampas mentioned, I believe, there's the AoM book. And while it sucks to buy another book, as many have mentioned, I full expected it. Dragonlance has a rich, rich history. It took me several pages to write a summary of the world to a friend of mine, to try and coax him to play it. Not much they coulda done about that.
6. Rehashed magic items. If you aren't going to add new stuff, at least cover ALL the old stuff (no stats for arm of Ergoth).
Maybe some of it god edited out. Or maybe they were forced with a choice of which artifacts to show. Or maybe these will be appearing in era-specific materials. I plan on creating most of my own magic items, anyway. I've never been satisfied with book-written stuff. Not unique or special enough. Although DL comes damn close.
7. Thorn Knights are required to know how to use plate mail but Skull Knights aren't?
Yeah, that's odd. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
8. Legion of Steel prestige class. Blah!
Blah to you, good sir! Or something. Fear not, though. More Legionnaire classes are out with the Age of Mortals book. And I like the 3-level class.
9. A foldout map of some type would have been a nice bonus (even a little one).
One of the many things to get edited out of the DLCS by Wizards.
We're all just as unhappy as you, man.10. No character sheet? Could have put one where the FREAKIN' INDEX WAS SUPPOSED TO BE.
I noticed this the other day. It'd be nice to have a Dragonlance-specific sheet, but I guess if it conforms enough to 3.5, you can use that sheet. Why not, after all?
Minor detail. Still should've been an index.
And I would've preferred a 320 page book, too. So would Sovereign Press, I imagine (since that's what they aimed for). But I'll take what I can get through WotC's editing.
I am new to DL gaming (not the books) and my players have never read a DL novel but they all have some familiarity with the universe.
So, my expectations to the DLCS are:
A book that describes the universe and all the events that have taken place (since DL is very much constructed around a specific timeline of multiple world shattering events). So we need a single book that holds all the background we need to play in any time without messing it up for ourselves.
So far we have been playing with what little info we could get from the web. and while teh Nexus has some good timelines, there just aren't enough info in them to base a campaign on.
to give an example, we thought Mina was killed at the end of WoS as soem of the info we found on the web hinted at that, but apparently she isn't. That sort of mistakes are important when making a campaign in DL (if they arenj't important, you wouldn't need the darn DLCS as you could just say, hey, we have kender and no orcs, everything else we just make up as we please and thyen we call it Dragonlance!).
So besides having to contain all the info you need to make a campaign in any time without making fatal mistakes to the timeline, you really only need little changes to the rules.
Everything else can go in supplements like Age of Mortals etc. so if I want to play in the 5th age and get every nitpick detail right down to what color underwear Mina is wearing, then you buy Age of Mortals, but for playing Dl you just need to know the basics like what races joined what races in the war of souls, who were the good guys who were the bad guys, where did the battles take place and what was the consequences of the battles etc. so you have something to build your campaign from.
so..... Ask yourself..... Does the DLCS contain that?
(that's what I'm waiting to see when I get the book!)
If so, why complain about this and that? That's why they put out detailed Age of... books!
cheers
Originally posted by Lenin97
PS. Serena, I only recently (this week) got the book and was able to read through it. mwbeeler, started this thread to talk about his take on the book and we are mearly conversing about it. As for there being so many negative threads about the book, well maybe a lot of people find it lacking and feel that by posting thier thoughts and questions that they might find some answers or reasons why things are the way they are.
Yes....I get that....and it was what I was complaining about.....There are like 12 threads on the board all with the topic nearly interchangeable, the thing is....people can clearly see these topics.....whay not discuss the issue in one of the other threads rather than starting a whole new one with the same darn subject. But.....I have found that the conversation in this particular thread is the most productive so far....So....let's continue.....
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