I thought the idea was awesome and wanted to use it in my Planescape campaign. Pretty much what I've gotten is, the ancient baatorians were the original fiendish race of Baator, and the Baatezu were their creations. A really long time ago, they tried to take over the Great Ring using an army of Baatezu (and their immensely powerful selves), but were stopped when the Baatezu rebelled and celestials stepped in. The city represents one of the final battles, and the rest of the Baatezu moved on to dominate Baator.
Now the ancient Baatorians have been stopped (others could be imprisoned in Carceri, or maybe they could be that mysterious evil force trapped in Belierin (the misty dark layer of Elysium). Perhaps the ancient baatorians were really highly advanced yugoloths who got a little too ambitious. Point is, there's a plot to invert an Astral Rift to revert the multiverse to the way it was at the height of their empire's power. To do this, they have countless yugoloths working to channel the energies of the lower planes into the rift. That's the purpose of the three great yugoloth towers (Tower of the Arcanoloths, Khin-Oin, and the Tower of Incarnate Pain from Faces of Evil).
Now my question, at last, is: what would the ancient baatorians be like? What would they be called? What kinds of powers would they have? Does anyone have any ideas to supplement my giant campaign-of-an-adventure?
The first idea I thought of was that the ancient Baatorians could be fallen celestials who turned away from the path of good. Of course, that's an awful lot like the Biblical Lucifer and his Fall. It makes sense, but may not be the best alternative.
However, then I got to thinking...Nobody knows who Asmodeus really is, where he came from, or how he got to Baator, right? Asmodeus could be the last remnant of these ancient Baatorians. So, going off of that...
Perhaps the ancient Baatorians were gigantic creatures (size Gargantuan) of phenomenal, godlike power. This would have enabled them to easily create the vast numbers and types of baatezu that exist in the multiverse today. It would also account for why Asmodeus can still maintain a tight grip on the rulership of the Nine Hells and how he was able to stamp out The Reckoning. Obviously, if he's willing to leave most of the Lords of the Nine in power, he's confident he can whip them into shape again.
Then again, Asmodeus might've only been the best of the best of the ancient Baatorians. That would explain why only he is left and the others are missing or were defeated.
Appearances? I imagine they looked fiendlike. If they created the present-day baatezu, they probably made them in their own image. Either that, or I imagine they're more like extremely large serpents (think Dendar from Forgotten Realms, the serpent who lives in the City of the Dead and waits till she can devour the sun). The rumors claim that Asmodeus has a body that is really miles upon miles in length.
The fallen celestial idea is easier to follow, I think, and may make more sense. However, I can't imagine that it would be any easy task for a fallen celestial or any type of fiend to acquire as much sheer power as Asmodeus obviously has...That in and of itself suggests the ancient Baatorians could be much more.
Also, perhaps you could somehow link the ancient Baatorian aspect of your campaign into the ancient ruins beneath Malbolge, the sixth layer. I'm sure there would be some connection.
Of course being canonical information on them being what it is, anyone is free to take what there is and run with it, putting their own spin on the whole shebang for their campaign. What's interesting however is that, as revealed in Tales of the Infinate Staircase, the 'loths are apparently aware of the Ancient Baatorians, and in fact gifted a Kyton lord with a rapidly developing example of that ancient race. The Kyton thought it was some sort of advanced Nupperibo, possibly the reformed spirit of a Baatezu highup, and kept the thing. I've always seen it as a 'loth plot to subvert the ruling Hierarchy of Baator, or even simply an experiment to breed one of the creatures and let it loose within its original home plane simply to observe what it did to the Baatezu. It also suggests the 'loths have more than one of them. *evil grin*
One idea I'd had, and may yet use in a campaign, involved one of those bizarre cities locked in the ice of Cania thawing out as a result of Mephistopheles' use of Hellfire. However instead of the thawed Archons and the Ancient Baatorians fighting each other upon awakening, since all observers had believed them to be locked in the ice in mid battle versus the other, the Baatorians begin to immediately slaughter the Baatezu while the 'Archons' watch and direct the massacre with dark, knowing smiles upon their faces.
One thing I personally usually don't address, or try to avoid, is connecting Asmodeus to it all. I prefer The Lord of the 9th to remain enigmatic, and I also have an extreme loathing for the 2nd ed Guide to Hell, and the opinions it expresses regarding the Lord of Darkness. Of course, I'm both a Planescape purist, and all but ap Yugoloth worshiper so... ;)
In my mind the ancient baatorians are very alien creatures indeed. Nothing like the baatezu as a matter of fact. For instance, they have very little interest in the goings on of the rest of the great ring. They couldn't care less for the Tanar'ri or the blood war for instance. Or corrupting mortals. Or combatting deva's.
Instead they represent far more fundamental concepts of evil. The ancient baatorian in the Hellbound adventure represented the essence of darkness. Others might represent concepts such as betrail, war, vengance, or lack of mercy (I'm trying to find a better word for that one. mercilessness?).
The baatezu have been quite effective in removing every trace of the ancient baatorians from the planes. However, their succes was not complete. Some still remain, such as the one mentioned in hellbound. Still, it is quite possible that they are more common than we might expect. See, like the loth's (and quite unlike the baatezu), ancient baatorians are formed from the plane, rather than from larvea.
Nupperibos for example, could well be the initial form, the young if you will, of these ancient baatroians. They are not formed from larvea or lemures. So where do they come from.
Similarly Kytons and baatezu are not known to get allong well. There is a reason Jangling Hither is suspiciously free of the fiends.
And you're right, not much is said of ancient Tanar'ri or any other 'native' species of The Abyss. I might be tempted to attribute that to the rather high turnover rate of Abyssal dwellers though.
It's a nifty idea though.- Were the ancient Baatorians involved in the Blood War? No graybeard can say with any certainty how long the Blood War has been going on. I doubt many powers even know. The only being who might know would be Her Serenity and that's if She even cares enough to know. Could it be that the modern baatezu overcame or obliterated the ancients before starting the Blood War with the tanar'ri?
- Going off of that, here's a scary thought: What if all fiends shared a common ancestor in the ancient Baatorians? During that time, there would have been no Blood War and the fiends all cooperated together in peace and harmony (a euphemism, of course, since peace and harmony the Elysium way is all but unheard of on the Lower Planes). The ancient Baatorians may not have been strictly Baatorians, but a collection of creatures from across the Lower Planes who became the progenitors of the various fiendish races. Then, the baatezu for some reason or other decided to take over Baator or something similar and overthrew their creators. This angered the tanar'ri and sparked the Blood War.
The opposite is actually more likely, given the chaotic nature of the tanar'ri. The baatezu, while not necessarily happy, would have been content to live under the rulership of their creators/masters. The tanar'ri could have infiltrated and destroyed the ancient "Baatorians" and angered the baatezu something awful. The baatezu started the Blood War as an exercise in vengeance but the in stalemate that's been going on for so long, the origins of the war have been lost to all except perhaps Asmodeus and a few of the high-up devil lords and demon princes.
Of course, it could've also been the greedy yugoloths that dead-booked the ancients. Any clueless berks know that the yugoloths are out for themselves. A lot of people are quite certain that the 'loths are actually keeping both the tanar'ri and the baatezu at odds so they can continue to get more out of the War. So, the 'loths could've done in the ancients and framed it on the tanar'ri
- Speculating on the ancient Baatorians makes a body wonder about the other Lower Planes. Here are a few examples:
* Some 'loths (and graybeards) claim they originally called kip on the Waste. To quote the illustrious Tarsheva Longreach, "The yugoloths live on Gehenna, although some claim the Gray Waste was their original case." Now, any berk understands that the 'loths are extremely powerful. Arguably, they could be the most powerful of the major fiendish races. They have the ability to work both sides of the War and that can't be an easy feat.
Anyway, here's where I'm going with that. There really isn't a lot of dark (and correct me if I'm wrong) on any indigenous Gehenna life. Nobody's found any ruins (or if they have, they're not talking) or any traces of sentient fiendish life native to Gehenna.
The scary part of that? What if the 'loths eradicated all trace of "ancient Gehennans" long, long ago so they could make Gehenna their case?
* Is there a fiendish race native to Acheron? You could argue the bladelings are fiends, but I think that's screed. After all, there are more bladelings who "reform" from evil than there are fiends. Thuldanin has a LOT of uncovered dark on it and not many people really bother with Tintibulus.
Similarly, is there a fiendish race native to Pandemonium? Pandemonium probably has more dark than Acheron. Look at Harmonica and Howler's Crag, both of which are places understood by most, if not all bloods. Then there's the fourth layer, who knows what's trapped down there?
Now, it's possible that Acheron and Pandemonium don't and never have had native or indigenous fiendish life. They could be too close to Mechanus and Limbo, respectively, to have spawned any fiends...
* Finally (for now) to get back on track with the Baator thing, is there a connection to the ruins beneath Malbolge and the ruins frozen in Cania? Moreover, how many more of these ruins could there be that even the baatezu don't know about? Whole cities could be operating, unharmed and protected, beneath the murk of Minauros. There could even be hidden ruins in Stygia or Maladomini.
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Originally posted by Tertek
* Some 'loths (and graybeards) claim they originally called kip on the Waste. To quote the illustrious Tarsheva Longreach, "The yugoloths live on Gehenna, although some claim the Gray Waste was their original case." Now, any berk understands that the 'loths are extremely powerful. Arguably, they could be the most powerful of the major fiendish races. They have the ability to work both sides of the War and that can't be an easy feat.
Anyway, here's where I'm going with that. There really isn't a lot of dark (and correct me if I'm wrong) on any indigenous Gehenna life. Nobody's found any ruins (or if they have, they're not talking) or any traces of sentient fiendish life native to Gehenna.
The scary part of that? What if the 'loths eradicated all trace of "ancient Gehennans" long, long ago so they could make Gehenna their case?
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It's unlikely that Gehenna had any indigenous life of a type similar to how the Ancient Baatorians, or the Baernaloths are the original natives of Baator or the Grey Waste respectively. It's been postulated by some greybeards that Gehenna may have been artificially created during some point in the Blood War (not there's any evidence this is more than just screed). In any case the 'loths have been there in Gehenna long enough to be tied to the plane to the point that Yugoloths will spawn naturally from the essence of the plane. At that point it becomes moot to call anything else as having any sort of claim to the plane.
Now with Carceri its also likely it has no original inhabitants to spawn naturally from the plane, since the Yugoloths are trying to do the same thing there as they did with Gehenna, and the Gehreleths are exiles to the plane with their creator Apomps the Three Faced (a rogue Baernaloth).
The alignment extremes seem to be the only planes to spawn their own true native exemplar races by and large.
[I'm posting this under my own name, I posted the message above using the computer of a friend, and for the second time in a row forgot to change the logged in messageboard name. *sigh*]
Now, here's another weird twist I thought I'd throw in the works...I don't know much about the rilmani, but do you think it could be possible that -they- are the ones who gave birth to the ancient Baatorians? Not only the ancient Baatorians, but every other exemplar race existing today.
Come to think of it, that's really an extremely far stretch in more terms than one. Even if they could, why would the rilmani bother in the first place? It gives a body something to think on, but it's about as unlikely as Gehenna having been created artificially.
Maybe the Kamerel themselves aren't the first. Who knows? *grin*
http://mimir.net/musee/shame.html
Dackad, you do pose an interesting point. Any surviving ancients could very well be in Carceri, though I do not know they have any relation to the giants you are speaking of.
Certainly there's a subtext of an ancient race of titans in the outer planes, if we take the ruins within Pelion in Arborea as an example, as well as some of the legends surrounding Howler's Crag in Pandemonium (as well as the fact that the tunnels of the plane appear hand carved, and then there's the inner planar legends of The Sleeping Ones, said to be titanic beings locked inside the glaciers of the paraplane of ice, normally confused for mountains such is their size.
Of course, all of these might simply be confusion among many different things. Though to be truthful, the ruins of Pelion contained magic capable of slaying powers with but a single word. Whomever they were, they left behind a legacy within the ruins of their towers and plazas.
One might also attempt to connect The Loadstones of Misery to this, but in that latter case, I'd personally connect those mysteries of the Grey Waste to the Baernaloth rather than some other race, especially given the primal nature of the Baern as it is.
What this 'loth wouldn't do to get her claws on the dark of it all...
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
Hmm... any idea where the bit about the beings in Carceri was originally?
Planes of Conflict, under the Gallowsgaunt entry of Carceri. Basically, a small town called Gallowsgaunt exists amongst a bunch of hanging, supposedly dead, giant bodies. Fiends fear the place and some speculate that the giants aren't dead at all, just sleeping.
In general, regardless of origin, Carceri is a cesspool of the condemned, forgotten and imprisoned. From Apomps the rogue Baernaloth and his children the Gehreleths, to the Titans of Mount Othrys, to the contents of the Ship of One Hundred, to the rumored beings that inhabit the infinite void between the distinct orbs of the plane (sound Lovecraftian anyone?) there's a ton of beings of power locked away in Carceri and denied a goodly portion of the power they might have if released from their chains (even the self imposed chains on some).
Originally posted by puk
Others might represent concepts such as betrail, war, vengance, or lack of mercy (I'm trying to find a better word for that one. mercilessness?).
Ruthlessness.
Wyvern
Originally posted by Tertek
Anyway, here's where I'm going with that. There really isn't a lot of dark (and correct me if I'm wrong) on any indigenous Gehenna life. Nobody's found any ruins (or if they have, they're not talking) or any traces of sentient fiendish life native to Gehenna.
If there ever were any ruins, I would think that the perpetual lava flows would have wiped them out.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
Interesting idea, but unlikely given that the Rilmani aren't the original True Neutral race of exemplars to inhabit the Outlands. The Kamerel lived at the base of the spire before the Rilmani, who displaced them and became the dominany race of exemplars. Both likely 'native' to the plane, but being two diametrically opposed examples of the abstract concept of true neutrality.
Kamerel? First I've heard of them. What book are they in?
Originally posted by Dackad
There is mention of some strange 'giants' in Carceri. Giants which no one can tell if they're dead or still alive. Fiends supposedly fear the place where their bodies are. It could be a link to the Ancient Baatorians maybe?
Sound more like titans to me.
Wyvern
You're right about the lava flows and explosions on the other three layers though likely obliterating any ruins.
And the Kameral are detailed in the module 'Tales of the Infinate Staircase', its an interesting book, I highly recommend it. And as I think I mentioned earlier in the thread, there's a mention of one of the Ancient Baatorians in the book as well. (This immature one was gifted to an ignorant Kyton lord by an Ultraloth, the creature having been raised, apparently outside of Baator. Frightening consequence there.)
Originally posted by Tertek
The first idea I thought of was that the ancient Baatorians could be fallen celestials who turned away from the path of good. Of course, that's an awful lot like the Biblical Lucifer and his Fall. It makes sense, but may not be the best alternative.
Interesting thought, but I would put it the other way around. I would make the ancient Baatorians a race of ineffable evil, and the Baatezu the decendents of the Archons who, in their zeal to destroy the ancient race, tainted themselves with Evil. Who knows, maybe the Baatorians were dying out on their own and they tricked the Archons into genocide so that there would be a new infernal race. (or maybe a few Baatorians started this to wipe out their competition among their own kind)
As for physical appearence, I picture ancient Baatorians as looking exactly like human beings. I've got this concept of them being even more cunning than 'loths...Gehenna is between the Waste and Baator, maybe the ancient Baatorians were 'loths.
A new jacket? Thank you. The sleeves are too long, though, and why are their so many buckles?
Imagine a giant slug with wierd spikes and/or tentacles, and makes it literally immune to anything short of a wish. That's about where the critters stand...
There was also an immature ancient Baatorian in Tales of the Infinite Staircase that resembled a Nupperibo with a mass of tentacles sprouting from its stomach. And while standard Nupperibo are utterly mindless, this particular example was frighteningly intelligent.
Of course, the ecology of the Baatorians is rather unknown, and so there might still be transitory forms between those observed, or further forms beyond those observed.
Personally it makes sense to me for the ancient Baatorians to be a native species, and the Baatezu an interloper race within Baator. This of course fits in quite nicely with the fact that Baatezu don't spawn naturally from the essence of their 'home plane' and it also fits into the Yugoloth legends of the creation of both Tanar'ri and Baatezu from the taint of chaos and law purified out of themselves by their own creators the Baernaloth.
And as much as the Ancient Baatorians are scary, the Baernaloth are ten times more so. But I'm biased towards the 'loths, I fully admit it.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
And as much as the Ancient Baatorians are scary, the Baernaloth are ten times more so. But I'm biased towards the 'loths, I fully admit it.
Woah. Hey, slow down there. What did you just say? Biased toward the yugoloths? I had no idea. Absolutely no idea. Since when? Did anyone else here ever catch on that Shemeska was somewhat biased toward the yugoloths?
Originally posted by Factol Rhys
Woah. Hey, slow down there. What did you just say? Biased toward the yugoloths? I had no idea. Absolutely no idea. Since when? Did anyone else here ever catch on that Shemeska was somewhat biased toward the yugoloths?
I said nothing of the sort, nothing. I don't know what you possibly were thinking... oh thats right, you weren't thinking, you Ciphers don't do that.
It must have just been that wierd, so called Cadence thing you all babble about. The Cadence must have said something about me being biased towards the Yugoloths. Absolutely, must have been that, because as we all know such a paragon of grace and virtue as myself would never be biased, much less admit to something that wasn't true. After all, I never lie.
*looks at pack of toadies and bodyguards who all nod vigorously* See? Absolutely.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95184
i just want to tell you all that you've given me a lot of different ideas and you've shared a lot of information that i wouldn't normally have had. thanks.
such a paragon of grace and virtue as myself
Grace + virtue = Yugoloth?
Did the Lady change things around again? I have to get out of Elysium more often.By the way, we members of the Transcendant Order do not babble. That is saved for the Xaositects and their chaotic ways. Nor do we exclaim our unity with the Cadence of the Planes. We recruit no one. We have no need to. Our members join our faction on their own because they discover that it is what they must do to achieve their true potential.
"As I said, grace and virtue. Just ask any berk on the street and he'll tell you the same, after a glance over their shoulder and a look of fear before they answer somewhat hastily."
"That said, I shouldn't take up the time of one of Sigil's more influencial citizens, even if you don't dress as well as I do."
The 'loth and her retinue walk off, her shrill laugh echoing down the street.
.... aaanyways, back to the Ancient Baatorians. Kyle_the_DM, glad you found some useful info here. Hope the campaign goes well, let us know.
You could treat the Blood War as either a distraction for the upper planes, and to busy the law and chaos touched fiends; and/or a single gigantic experiment designed to foster evil in the multiverse and examine the play between the different flavors of evil. You might see the Baernaloth as the original designers of this, having now sat back in mythical anonymity to watch their experiment mature and unfold before they and their children the Yugoloths embark on the next step of their ultimate plane.
The Yugoloth towers won't be linked for some time, the Tower of Incarnate Pain has been destroyed by the Gehreleths on several occasions, and Apomps is unlikely to allow it to be finished anytime soon if he gets his way. A family spat like no other. Apomps simply won't allow his former bretheren the Baern to succeed in whatever they ultimate plan. The price for their rejection of him and his own children the 'leths. Unless of course if you think the Baern allowed him to do so. But thats a big if. They may have darks even the powers don't have, but in no way are they omniscient. Though we 'loths would like to think they are. :D
Personally its my feeling once the towers are complete, the 'loths may seek to put an end to the Blood War, but likely only after laying the groundwork for other plots, whatever they may be. And that assumes the Baatezu and Tanar'ri don't object to this wholesale manipulation of themselves, or the Rilmani don't intercede, or the Celestials don't catch wind of this since an end to the Blood War would be devestating to the upper planes.
) how could I explain the Yugoloth's cooperation? Could it be a cult of yugoloths, acting under orders from the Baatorians, who are unable to fulfill their own plans due to their imprisonment? Could the Yugoloths have created the Baatorians? Could the Yugoloths be the Baatorians (remember, unlike the other fiends, they are originally spawned from the lower planes) and the ones that are imprisoned are just the most powerful in their race?I can see the Yugoloths using the Baatorians, but not really the other way around. The ancient Baatorians are so few in number, than even if individually powerful, they don't have the power to force the 'loths to work for them. I could see cooperation though if the 'loths thought something was in it for them. And believe me its ALWAYS about whats in it for us. :D
And for as much as I'm biased towards the Yugoloths, not that I'll admit to it, I can't see them having created the Ancient Baatorians. The 'loths are the native spawn on the Gray Waste, true children of pure NE. The Ancient Baatorians however are the native children of Baator, creatures of pure LE. They simply arose from the plane, and were it not for the Baatezu controlling the plane, the Baatorians would likely regain a foothold and their eventual numbers unless stopped. But again, the Yugoloths are apparently aware of this, and have at one time, if not still, had possession of a maturing ancient Baatorian. They might have more, the real answer is dark. The key point though is that while both naturally spawn from the lower planes, they spawn from different lower planes and thus have some key differences in their core essence and motivation and ethos. Pure evil for the sake of evil versus lawful evil and domination and control
And implied above, but perhaps not stated, I don't think the Yugoloths and the Ancient Baatorians are the same race, or even related. They're composed of two different shades of evil with a key philosophical difference. If anything the rise of the Ancient Baatorians would compromise any hold the 'loths had on the Baatezu, unless of course in your game they've figured out some way to control the native Baatorians, or think they do.
One thing you might find interesting, is that a number of the Baernaloth (best guess for how many, or even how many of the Baern still or ever did exist) form a council called The Demented. They apparently give advice and guidence to The General of Gehenna, The Oinoloth, and some or all of the unique Yugoloth lords. And in their own take on the nature of evil, they've chosen not to reject law and chaos, but embrace both random destructive evil and harsh tyranny, both extremes of evil, CE and LE at the exact same time. Perhaps paradoxical, but as beings of NE thats one possible interpretation. [Much as the Rilmani encompass a balance of all alignments to form true Neutral, rather than the Kameral who were true Neutral as a rejection off all other alignments. Both N, but different interpretations.]
And so taking that into consideration, it might explain why a, some, or all Yugoloths might be willing to use or work with an Ancient Baatorian. Expressing or allying with a being of pure and utter LE might not always lead to a betrayal of principle for a being of pure and utter NE.
I'd say no, since it would negate all of the work the 'loths have done to foster and create the Blood War with themselves pulling on its strings to dictate its ebb and flow.
[...]
You could treat the Blood War as either a distraction for the upper planes, and to busy the law and chaos touched fiends; and/or a single gigantic experiment designed to foster evil in the multiverse and examine the play between the different flavors of evil.
What if the Blood War was a kind of experiment, and the yugoloths have all the results they're looking for? Resetting the multiverse to the way it was that long ago would mean that (A) the yugoloths have all the knowledge of what happened afterwards, while everyone else doesn't, and (B) the yugoloths have all the information from their experiment and can better control the other fiends.
Anyway I hope it helps.
Shemeska_the_Marauder wrote: