Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 05, 2003 22:19:22	Dumb question about the Irda's ability to shapechange, but I can't figure out the answer. Normally, an Irda has low-light vision. If an Irda assumes the form of an Elf, or other race with Darkvision of some form, does the Irda gain that Darkvision? I've checked the Irda ability description against the Polymorph Other description, but neither is very clear on it to me. I get the impression the answer is yes, and not gaining the vision abilities of their new shape would be a giveaway for their disguises, but I wanted to get other people's opinions. Thanks.
#2 banshee Sep 05, 2003 22:53:57	I would say yes, but if he turned into a Dargonesti, for example, he wouldn't gain the innate spell-like abilities... Banshee
#3 iltharanos Sep 06, 2003 0:22:08	Originally posted by NoirAuteur Dumb question about the Irda's ability to shapechange, but I can't figure out the answer. Normally, an Irda has low-light vision. If an Irda assumes the form of an Elf, or other race with Darkvision of some form, does the Irda gain that Darkvision? I've checked the Irda ability description against the Polymorph Other description, but neither is very clear on it to me. I get the impression the answer is yes, and not gaining the vision abilities of their new shape would be a giveaway for their disguises, but I wanted to get other people's opinions. Thanks. The Irda description states that they get extraordinary special attacks, but not any special qualities of the assumed form. This is consistent with the polymorph spell description. Racial traits like low-light vision or darkvision are extraordinary special qualities. Hence the Irda in the guide of a Krynn elf would not gain the Elvensight special quality. Irda also would not get any spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities (like the sea elf alternate form ability).
#4 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 14:22:50	I think they would continue to use their normal vision...
#5 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 16:12:30	I've reread the "Polymorph Other" spell a couple of times, and I finally noticed that it says that nonmagical physical attributes are considered natural abilities, and gives the example of an Owl's Low-light vision, and the Polymorphed person does get it(the low light vision, in the case of an Owl). However, looking at the Monster Manual, it lists Racial Traits under Special Qualities. I'm still leaning towards saying the Irda gets the vision of his shapechanged form. I can't see the ability justifying a +2 ECL otherwise - even with a House Rule that Irda do get the vision of their new form, a Drow would wipe the floor with them, everything else being equal. And I still can't get pass the idea that not getting the vision would be a dead giveaway that the Irda isn't really what he's shapechanged as. Wouldn't you get suspicious if an Elf needed to use artificial means to see in the dark?
#6 shugi Sep 07, 2003 22:26:38	Agreed... particularly in the case of an elf, since even DL elves only need 4 hours of trance, as listed in the PHB.
#7 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 22:30:16	I thought that elves of Ansalon slept, was one of the things I really like about them... Arandur
#8 shugi Sep 07, 2003 22:40:50	They do in the novels (and they're not immune to magical sleep effects, either), but it hasn't been altered in the DLCS. A reasonable house rule might be to remove the trance abilities and make them susceptible to sleep, but give them an additional bonus somewhere... possibly a +2 bonus to Knowledge (history) and the ability to use it untrained, as their long lifespans can easily explain this additional knowledge.
#9 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 22:49:32	hmmmm, then perhaps give them a +2 bonus versus sleep and enchantment (instead of enchantment only) magics and the abliltiy to use Knowledge (history) untrained due to their long lifespan. This might keep the 'feel' of the PHB elf but make it more 'Ansalonian'... Arandur
#10 shugi Sep 08, 2003 9:57:14	Sleep is an enchantment spell, so the +2 enchantment bonus already applies.
#11 iltharanos Sep 10, 2003 0:11:50	Originally posted by NoirAuteur I've reread the "Polymorph Other" spell a couple of times, and I finally noticed that it says that nonmagical physical attributes are considered natural abilities, and gives the example of an Owl's Low-light vision, and the Polymorphed person does get it(the low light vision, in the case of an Owl). However, looking at the Monster Manual, it lists Racial Traits under Special Qualities. I'm still leaning towards saying the Irda gets the vision of his shapechanged form. I can't see the ability justifying a +2 ECL otherwise - even with a House Rule that Irda do get the vision of their new form, a Drow would wipe the floor with them, everything else being equal. And I still can't get pass the idea that not getting the vision would be a dead giveaway that the Irda isn't really what he's shapechanged as. Wouldn't you get suspicious if an Elf needed to use artificial means to see in the dark? Technically there is no "Polymorph Other" spell, unless you are using 3.0 rules. As Dragonlance was designed using 3.5 rules, officially the Irda shapeshifting ability would conform with the 3.5 "Polymorph" spell, which means Irda do not get extraordinary special qualities, like Elvensight. I agree that the +2 Level adjustment is a bit steep. But there's no point in comparing Irda with Drow since Drow do not officially exist in a Dragonlance campaign.
#12 zombiegleemax Sep 10, 2003 0:58:45	Well, I'm not using the 3.5 rules, and I don't plan to.
#13 cam_banks Sep 10, 2003 8:33:14	Originally posted by NoirAuteur Well, I'm not using the 3.5 rules, and I don't plan to. "Polymorph Other" still doesn't apply, since the Irda's changing himself, not somebody else. Cheers, Cam
#14 zombiegleemax Sep 10, 2003 19:24:11	Except the description for "Polymorph Self" says "As Polymorph Other."