Epic Dragonlance - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Epic Dragonlance

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Sep 05, 2003 22:30:16 Since Epic progression has made it into the core rules (3.5) DMG, does DL campaign officially support epic characters?

I don't have AoM. Are there any characters beyond level 20 in it? I am not weighing in on the whole "flavor" vs. "munchkin" thing. I'm just curious if things are going to move in that direction or not. It would seem that if DL was going to maintain a level limit (as was done in the past), the designers would specifically have to mandate as much. I don't recall seeing it mentioned in the DLCS either way.
#2
Matthew_L._Martin
Sep 05, 2003 22:35:24 I believe Epic rules were used in crafting the Dragon Overlords, as least as inspiration. I think the 'level cap' is a thing of the past, or at least only as much a part of DL now as it is any other setting--most characters will cap at Level 20, but you can go beyond that, and some important figures might be allowed to go beyond it. In fact, Emperor Ariakas had a 1E character level of effectively 32, and using the Conversion Booklet guidelines, he'd come out to 25 in 3E. :-)

Personally, I think that if you want Epic gaming in DL, the best options are the following:

1) Place the PCs on the front lines of the Chaos War.
2) Toss the War of Souls out the window, at least in part, and have the heroes take the fight to the Dragon Overlords.
3) For a full-fledged Epic campaign, the Dragon Wars of the Second Age would probably be the most suitable.

Matthew L. Martin, who has a soft spot for high-powered melodramatic Epic Fantasy.
#3
zombiegleemax
Sep 05, 2003 22:45:00 DL has plently of epic, world-shattering stories: Cataclysms, challenging of gods, stealing of worlds, time travel, etc. It also has plenty of small "local" events: gully dwarves and rats, local inns in trees, elves falling in love with dragons, etc. DL could handle both styles of campaigns people could be balanced about this stuff.

In any event, you mentioned a Conversion Booklet guidline. Could you tell me more about that?
#4
Matthew_L._Martin
Sep 05, 2003 23:03:34
In any event, you mentioned a Conversion Booklet guidline. Could you tell me more about that?

I was referring to the guidelines in the original 3E Conversion Booklet for bringing 1E/2E multiclass and dual-class characters over to the new rules set. You basically take their highest class level, plus 1/3rd of any other class levels, to get their character level. Assign to classes as best for the character.

Matthew L. Martin
#5
zombiegleemax
Sep 05, 2003 23:06:21 Great help, thanks!
#6
nevine
Sep 05, 2003 23:25:18 As far as actual character levels go (and not concerning CR or epic templates), yes they exsist. The Grand Master of the Knights of Solamnia is 21st. level.
#7
iltharanos
Sep 06, 2003 1:05:22
Originally posted by Nevine
As far as actual character levels go (and not concerning CR or epic templates), yes they exsist. The Grand Master of the Knights of Solamnia is 21st. level.

I have a feeling that was the result of poor addition. But it's in the book, so a good enough excuse for me to believe that epic level non-dragon characters exist on Krynn. ;)
#8
iltharanos
Sep 06, 2003 1:08:49 Hmm. I just saw Chief Donnag (an ogre with the ogre titan template) in the back and he has:

4 HD (ogre racial hit dice)
12 Fighter
5 Sorcerer
-------------
21 HD

So that makes two characters in Age of Mortals with 21 HD, technically making them epic level. Nice. :D
#9
nevine
Sep 06, 2003 1:11:02 Shhh! Don't say that! They'll errata it. Move along Stormprince, nothing to see here.

Edit: Didn't notice Donnag having 21HD. Under the entry for Bloten it says he has 7 levels of sorcerer instead of 5, so he could have 23. But I'm guessing his actual statblock is correct.
#10
iltharanos
Sep 06, 2003 1:15:41
Originally posted by Nevine
Shhh! Don't say that! They'll errata it. Move along Stormprince, nothing to see here.

Edit: Didn't notice Donnag having 21HD. Under the entry for Bloten it says he has 7 levels of sorcerer instead of 5, so he could have 23. But I'm guessing his actual statblock is correct.

Erm, yes. Nothing to see here oh writers of Age of Mortals ... nothing to see ...

Ooooohhhh. 23rd level would be even more spectacular.
#11
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 12:10:59
Originally posted by Nevine
Shhh! Don't say that! They'll errata it. Move along Stormprince, nothing to see here.

Edit: Didn't notice Donnag having 21HD. Under the entry for Bloten it says he has 7 levels of sorcerer instead of 5, so he could have 23. But I'm guessing his actual statblock is correct.

Donnag is a CR 23, 12 levels of Fighter, 5 levels of Sorcerer, 4 HD from being an Ogre and +2 CR for the transformation to an ogre titan ;)

His stat block is correct, the information in the write up of Bloten is incorrect.

Christopher
#12
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 12:34:05 I think there is room for epic. There could be super powerful ppl that we do not know about. What if they choose to stay hiodden waiting for the perfect moment to take over muwhaha.
#13
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 13:29:22 They would have to. The original level limit for DL characters was 18, barring Raistlin who was 20 (hence his bid for Godhood). I'm assuming the stats for the Gods of Krynn will also have to be bumed up accordingly ala Deities and DemiGods.
#14
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 13:51:17 It has always been somewhat mysterious how a 20th level mage with 44 hp (Raistlin) could really challenge a goddess in 1E, 2E, or 3E, weak or no.

Epic advancement would fit Raistlin perfectly in such a case. It could certainly apply to many historical figures as well (Magius, Fistandantilus, the Kingpriest).
#15
iltharanos
Sep 06, 2003 14:39:58
Originally posted by Stormprince
Donnag is a CR 23, 12 levels of Fighter, 5 levels of Sorcerer, 4 HD from being an Ogre and +2 CR for the transformation to an ogre titan ;)

His stat block is correct, the information in the write up of Bloten is incorrect.

Christopher

Nice. Our first confirmed epic level DL character (in 3.5, and aside from dragons). So ... is Liam Ehrling's level listing correct as well? ;)
#16
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 15:50:19 The problem with epic play is the same for me, no matter which setting you play in. The main question always boils down to: what next? I've not completely read the epic level handbook yet, but it keeps making me wonder where all these epic creatures are hiding, and why they only pop up when you exceed level 20. Dunno, i guess i don't really get epic gaming or not. anyone got a good idea of how to really do epic gaming period?
#17
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 17:32:08 In my estimation epic gaming in DL would be very simple to pull off. As for where the epic monsters are....well....you could go one of three routes....

1.The Epic Monsters are always present......for example the dragon overlords....They are always there, just waiting for a hero (or four) to stick a lance in 'em. My favorite approach.

2.The Epic Monsters show up once the characters reach epic levels....this scenario would be my least favorite, as for me it ruins the suspension of disbelief.

3.The Epic Monsters are present in another part of the world.....Krynn is in actuality quite a large planet. I remember a supplement that said that there is room on the planet Krynn for sixteen more landmasses the size of Ansalon, with quite a bit of ocean space to spare. Ok....this is tied for my favorite.....
#18
B-naa
Sep 06, 2003 17:37:19 I always figured that if there are Epic monsters on Krynn, then characters of lower levels wouldn't be powerful enough to really draw their interest. So they never really see or hear of them.
#19
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 17:38:45 Everything comes to an end at some point. Theoretically, level advancement can go on forever, but practically, characters die. Even living forever does not gaurantee that the character advances in level.

Epic creatures tend to be few and far between. Most, if I am correct, are "otherworldy" type entities. The planes, being infinite, have more room for epic creatures. As characters become more powerful it is more likely that they will encounter these creatures.

The whole notion of Epic play is that there is always something bigger and badder. It doesn't imply that there is a lot of bigger and badder.

The Dragon Overlords seem to be good examples of this. Too many of them and they start to kill each other off.
#20
iltharanos
Sep 06, 2003 18:17:14
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
The problem with epic play is the same for me, no matter which setting you play in. The main question always boils down to: what next? I've not completely read the epic level handbook yet, but it keeps making me wonder where all these epic creatures are hiding, and why they only pop up when you exceed level 20. Dunno, i guess i don't really get epic gaming or not. anyone got a good idea of how to really do epic gaming period?

I've run an epic campaign before, and the main problem seems to boil down to two things:

1. Epic magic items: Per the Epic Level Handbook, there is theoretically no limit to how powerful a magic item can be. You want a +125 longsword, that's fine, so long as you've got the xp and the steel pieces. Limiting an epic campaign to non-epic magic items would help alleviate this problem. It actually works much better using 3.5 rules, since a creature with damage reduction/epic can be harmed by a weapon of +6 or greater enhancement. A mere +4 bane weapon would count as a +6 enhancement weapon and thus could affect creatures with epic damage reduction.

2. Epic spells as a result of the Epic Spellcasting feat. Epic spells are simply overbalancing. Using the epic rules (don't have my books on me so this is a guesstimation of an epic spell that can be crafted) one can create an epic spell that has a Spellcraft DC of 10 to cast, costs 90,000 stl to research, will take 4 days to actually create, and has the effect of granting the target of the spell a Damage Reduction of 45/-. Yeah.

As for epic monsters, the easiest place to put them would be on the Alien Dragons' homeworld. In the War of Souls, Skie actually stated that Malys was a runt by the standards of their homeworld. Considering Malys' 60+ HD, that's quite scary. Age of Mortals says that presumably the gods closed the ethereal passage from the aliens' homeworld to Krynn ... but perhaps not. Even if they did, perhaps the closure is only one way and anyone foolish enough to travel there from Krynn would find the way is clear. Besides epic dragons on Malys' homeworld, there could be all kinds of other epic monsters there, serving as either prey of the epic dragons or combatants, or even predators.
#21
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 18:29:56
Originally posted by iltharanos
I've run an epic campaign before, and the main problem seems to boil down to two things:

1. Epic magic items: Per the Epic Level Handbook, there is theoretically no limit to how powerful a magic item can be. You want a +125 longsword, that's fine, so long as you've got the xp and the steel pieces. Limiting an epic campaign to non-epic magic items would help alleviate this problem. It actually works much better using 3.5 rules, since a creature with damage reduction/epic can be harmed by a weapon of +6 or greater enhancement. A mere +4 bane weapon would count as a +6 enhancement weapon and thus could affect creatures with epic damage reduction.

Actually....no that would not count as an epic weapon....since normal magic weapons have an enhancement bonus limit of +10. Anyways....The enhancement bonus equivalent listed in the DMG for the specail abilities only counts for figuring up the price....It doesnt have any other relevance to the weapon. So....Your example of a +4 bane weapon would not overcome damage reduction-epic. It would have to be at least +6 bane.
#22
nevine
Sep 06, 2003 18:32:38 Edit: Nevermind, I'm an idiot.
#23
iltharanos
Sep 06, 2003 18:37:10
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Actually....no that would not count as an epic weapon....since normal magic weapons have an enhancement bonus limit of +10. Anyways....The enhancement bonus equivalent listed in the DMG for the specail abilities only counts for figuring up the price....It doesnt have any other relevance to the weapon. So....Your example of a +4 bane weapon would not overcome damage reduction-epic. It would have to be at least +6 bane.

Ahh. But if you look at the bane description it states that against the selected creature the weapon's enhancement bonus is increased by +2 and it deals an additional 2d6 points of damage to the opponent. So you have a +4 or +5 enhancement weapon with a bane special quality. This then leads to the conclusion that a +4 or +5 enh. bane weapon would be +6 or +7, respectively, versus the selected bane creature. Sure the magic weapon chart says weapons can only have a +5 enh. maximum ... but the bane quality would seem to contradict this. Even if such a weapon would not count as epic, artifacts could still be used that had +6 enhancement bonuses or higher (i.e. the dragonlance).
#24
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 18:39:26 Hmmm....I am at an impass with this.....I see it your way and I see it mine....perhaps this is a good question for Sage Advice.
#25
iltharanos
Sep 06, 2003 20:28:12
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Hmmm....I am at an impass with this.....I see it your way and I see it mine....perhaps this is a good question for Sage Advice.

Yeah. The DMG isn't covered yet in the 3.5 FAQ, and I just checked the 3.0 FAQ and didn't find anything about bane weapon qualities.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 05, 2003 22:30:16	Since Epic progression has made it into the core rules (3.5) DMG, does DL campaign officially support epic characters? I don't have AoM. Are there any characters beyond level 20 in it? I am not weighing in on the whole "flavor" vs. "munchkin" thing. I'm just curious if things are going to move in that direction or not. It would seem that if DL was going to maintain a level limit (as was done in the past), the designers would specifically have to mandate as much. I don't recall seeing it mentioned in the DLCS either way.
#2 Matthew_L._Martin Sep 05, 2003 22:35:24	I believe Epic rules were used in crafting the Dragon Overlords, as least as inspiration. I think the 'level cap' is a thing of the past, or at least only as much a part of DL now as it is any other setting--most characters will cap at Level 20, but you can go beyond that, and some important figures might be allowed to go beyond it. In fact, Emperor Ariakas had a 1E character level of effectively 32, and using the Conversion Booklet guidelines, he'd come out to 25 in 3E. :-) Personally, I think that if you want Epic gaming in DL, the best options are the following: 1) Place the PCs on the front lines of the Chaos War. 2) Toss the War of Souls out the window, at least in part, and have the heroes take the fight to the Dragon Overlords. 3) For a full-fledged Epic campaign, the Dragon Wars of the Second Age would probably be the most suitable. Matthew L. Martin, who has a soft spot for high-powered melodramatic Epic Fantasy.
#3 zombiegleemax Sep 05, 2003 22:45:00	DL has plently of epic, world-shattering stories: Cataclysms, challenging of gods, stealing of worlds, time travel, etc. It also has plenty of small "local" events: gully dwarves and rats, local inns in trees, elves falling in love with dragons, etc. DL could handle both styles of campaigns people could be balanced about this stuff. In any event, you mentioned a Conversion Booklet guidline. Could you tell me more about that?
#4 Matthew_L._Martin Sep 05, 2003 23:03:34	In any event, you mentioned a Conversion Booklet guidline. Could you tell me more about that? I was referring to the guidelines in the original 3E Conversion Booklet for bringing 1E/2E multiclass and dual-class characters over to the new rules set. You basically take their highest class level, plus 1/3rd of any other class levels, to get their character level. Assign to classes as best for the character. Matthew L. Martin
#5 zombiegleemax Sep 05, 2003 23:06:21	Great help, thanks!
#6 nevine Sep 05, 2003 23:25:18	As far as actual character levels go (and not concerning CR or epic templates), yes they exsist. The Grand Master of the Knights of Solamnia is 21st. level.
#7 iltharanos Sep 06, 2003 1:05:22	Originally posted by Nevine As far as actual character levels go (and not concerning CR or epic templates), yes they exsist. The Grand Master of the Knights of Solamnia is 21st. level. I have a feeling that was the result of poor addition. But it's in the book, so a good enough excuse for me to believe that epic level non-dragon characters exist on Krynn. ;)
#8 iltharanos Sep 06, 2003 1:08:49	Hmm. I just saw Chief Donnag (an ogre with the ogre titan template) in the back and he has: 4 HD (ogre racial hit dice) 12 Fighter 5 Sorcerer ------------- 21 HD So that makes two characters in Age of Mortals with 21 HD, technically making them epic level. Nice. :D
#9 nevine Sep 06, 2003 1:11:02	Shhh! Don't say that! They'll errata it. Move along Stormprince, nothing to see here. Edit: Didn't notice Donnag having 21HD. Under the entry for Bloten it says he has 7 levels of sorcerer instead of 5, so he could have 23. But I'm guessing his actual statblock is correct.
#10 iltharanos Sep 06, 2003 1:15:41	Originally posted by Nevine Shhh! Don't say that! They'll errata it. Move along Stormprince, nothing to see here. Edit: Didn't notice Donnag having 21HD. Under the entry for Bloten it says he has 7 levels of sorcerer instead of 5, so he could have 23. But I'm guessing his actual statblock is correct. Erm, yes. Nothing to see here oh writers of Age of Mortals ... nothing to see ... Ooooohhhh. 23rd level would be even more spectacular.
#11 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 12:10:59	Originally posted by Nevine Shhh! Don't say that! They'll errata it. Move along Stormprince, nothing to see here. Edit: Didn't notice Donnag having 21HD. Under the entry for Bloten it says he has 7 levels of sorcerer instead of 5, so he could have 23. But I'm guessing his actual statblock is correct. Donnag is a CR 23, 12 levels of Fighter, 5 levels of Sorcerer, 4 HD from being an Ogre and +2 CR for the transformation to an ogre titan ;) His stat block is correct, the information in the write up of Bloten is incorrect. Christopher
#12 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 12:34:05	I think there is room for epic. There could be super powerful ppl that we do not know about. What if they choose to stay hiodden waiting for the perfect moment to take over muwhaha.
#13 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 13:29:22	They would have to. The original level limit for DL characters was 18, barring Raistlin who was 20 (hence his bid for Godhood). I'm assuming the stats for the Gods of Krynn will also have to be bumed up accordingly ala Deities and DemiGods.
#14 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 13:51:17	It has always been somewhat mysterious how a 20th level mage with 44 hp (Raistlin) could really challenge a goddess in 1E, 2E, or 3E, weak or no. Epic advancement would fit Raistlin perfectly in such a case. It could certainly apply to many historical figures as well (Magius, Fistandantilus, the Kingpriest).
#15 iltharanos Sep 06, 2003 14:39:58	Originally posted by Stormprince Donnag is a CR 23, 12 levels of Fighter, 5 levels of Sorcerer, 4 HD from being an Ogre and +2 CR for the transformation to an ogre titan ;) His stat block is correct, the information in the write up of Bloten is incorrect. Christopher Nice. Our first confirmed epic level DL character (in 3.5, and aside from dragons). So ... is Liam Ehrling's level listing correct as well? ;)
#16 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 15:50:19	The problem with epic play is the same for me, no matter which setting you play in. The main question always boils down to: what next? I've not completely read the epic level handbook yet, but it keeps making me wonder where all these epic creatures are hiding, and why they only pop up when you exceed level 20. Dunno, i guess i don't really get epic gaming or not. anyone got a good idea of how to really do epic gaming period?
#17 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 17:32:08	In my estimation epic gaming in DL would be very simple to pull off. As for where the epic monsters are....well....you could go one of three routes.... 1.The Epic Monsters are always present......for example the dragon overlords....They are always there, just waiting for a hero (or four) to stick a lance in 'em. My favorite approach. 2.The Epic Monsters show up once the characters reach epic levels....this scenario would be my least favorite, as for me it ruins the suspension of disbelief. 3.The Epic Monsters are present in another part of the world.....Krynn is in actuality quite a large planet. I remember a supplement that said that there is room on the planet Krynn for sixteen more landmasses the size of Ansalon, with quite a bit of ocean space to spare. Ok....this is tied for my favorite.....
#18 B-naa Sep 06, 2003 17:37:19	I always figured that if there are Epic monsters on Krynn, then characters of lower levels wouldn't be powerful enough to really draw their interest. So they never really see or hear of them.
#19 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 17:38:45	Everything comes to an end at some point. Theoretically, level advancement can go on forever, but practically, characters die. Even living forever does not gaurantee that the character advances in level. Epic creatures tend to be few and far between. Most, if I am correct, are "otherworldy" type entities. The planes, being infinite, have more room for epic creatures. As characters become more powerful it is more likely that they will encounter these creatures. The whole notion of Epic play is that there is always something bigger and badder. It doesn't imply that there is a lot of bigger and badder. The Dragon Overlords seem to be good examples of this. Too many of them and they start to kill each other off.
#20 iltharanos Sep 06, 2003 18:17:14	Originally posted by Magus_Extreme The problem with epic play is the same for me, no matter which setting you play in. The main question always boils down to: what next? I've not completely read the epic level handbook yet, but it keeps making me wonder where all these epic creatures are hiding, and why they only pop up when you exceed level 20. Dunno, i guess i don't really get epic gaming or not. anyone got a good idea of how to really do epic gaming period? I've run an epic campaign before, and the main problem seems to boil down to two things: 1. Epic magic items: Per the Epic Level Handbook, there is theoretically no limit to how powerful a magic item can be. You want a +125 longsword, that's fine, so long as you've got the xp and the steel pieces. Limiting an epic campaign to non-epic magic items would help alleviate this problem. It actually works much better using 3.5 rules, since a creature with damage reduction/epic can be harmed by a weapon of +6 or greater enhancement. A mere +4 bane weapon would count as a +6 enhancement weapon and thus could affect creatures with epic damage reduction. 2. Epic spells as a result of the Epic Spellcasting feat. Epic spells are simply overbalancing. Using the epic rules (don't have my books on me so this is a guesstimation of an epic spell that can be crafted) one can create an epic spell that has a Spellcraft DC of 10 to cast, costs 90,000 stl to research, will take 4 days to actually create, and has the effect of granting the target of the spell a Damage Reduction of 45/-. Yeah. As for epic monsters, the easiest place to put them would be on the Alien Dragons' homeworld. In the War of Souls, Skie actually stated that Malys was a runt by the standards of their homeworld. Considering Malys' 60+ HD, that's quite scary. Age of Mortals says that presumably the gods closed the ethereal passage from the aliens' homeworld to Krynn ... but perhaps not. Even if they did, perhaps the closure is only one way and anyone foolish enough to travel there from Krynn would find the way is clear. Besides epic dragons on Malys' homeworld, there could be all kinds of other epic monsters there, serving as either prey of the epic dragons or combatants, or even predators.
#21 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 18:29:56	Originally posted by iltharanos I've run an epic campaign before, and the main problem seems to boil down to two things: 1. Epic magic items: Per the Epic Level Handbook, there is theoretically no limit to how powerful a magic item can be. You want a +125 longsword, that's fine, so long as you've got the xp and the steel pieces. Limiting an epic campaign to non-epic magic items would help alleviate this problem. It actually works much better using 3.5 rules, since a creature with damage reduction/epic can be harmed by a weapon of +6 or greater enhancement. A mere +4 bane weapon would count as a +6 enhancement weapon and thus could affect creatures with epic damage reduction. Actually....no that would not count as an epic weapon....since normal magic weapons have an enhancement bonus limit of +10. Anyways....The enhancement bonus equivalent listed in the DMG for the specail abilities only counts for figuring up the price....It doesnt have any other relevance to the weapon. So....Your example of a +4 bane weapon would not overcome damage reduction-epic. It would have to be at least +6 bane.
#22 nevine Sep 06, 2003 18:32:38	Edit: Nevermind, I'm an idiot.
#23 iltharanos Sep 06, 2003 18:37:10	Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst Actually....no that would not count as an epic weapon....since normal magic weapons have an enhancement bonus limit of +10. Anyways....The enhancement bonus equivalent listed in the DMG for the specail abilities only counts for figuring up the price....It doesnt have any other relevance to the weapon. So....Your example of a +4 bane weapon would not overcome damage reduction-epic. It would have to be at least +6 bane. Ahh. But if you look at the bane description it states that against the selected creature the weapon's enhancement bonus is increased by +2 and it deals an additional 2d6 points of damage to the opponent. So you have a +4 or +5 enhancement weapon with a bane special quality. This then leads to the conclusion that a +4 or +5 enh. bane weapon would be +6 or +7, respectively, versus the selected bane creature. Sure the magic weapon chart says weapons can only have a +5 enh. maximum ... but the bane quality would seem to contradict this. Even if such a weapon would not count as epic, artifacts could still be used that had +6 enhancement bonuses or higher (i.e. the dragonlance).
#24 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 18:39:26	Hmmm....I am at an impass with this.....I see it your way and I see it mine....perhaps this is a good question for Sage Advice.
#25 iltharanos Sep 06, 2003 20:28:12	Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst Hmmm....I am at an impass with this.....I see it your way and I see it mine....perhaps this is a good question for Sage Advice. Yeah. The DMG isn't covered yet in the 3.5 FAQ, and I just checked the 3.0 FAQ and didn't find anything about bane weapon qualities.