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Sigils size

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 10:02:50 I was wondering how big is the population of sigil?

any ideas.

thanks.
#2
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 16:14:05 Well I gueesing with its size, purpose and location at least 100,000 most likeliy ALOT more.
#3
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 17:18:02 From "The Cage: A Guide to Sigil"

Population: 1,000,000 guys and girls

City Size: 5-miles-diameter

...

Now I wonder how one million of guys can live in such a little space. I houseruled that my Sigil is 5-miles-radius, not 5-miles-diameter
#4
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 0:44:44 Two things to keep in mind. Sigil is very old and its space is quite limited. How do 1 mil people fit into a five mile area? Very tightly. The population densities, especially for the poorer sections, are likely very high. It is described in several sources that new houses are built on top of older houses, even in some of the nicer wards. There's also likely a small percentage of the population living in the under region beneath Sigil. Multi generational living arrangements would also keep things a little tighter. Does Sigil have the room to support 1,000,000 souls? No, but it manages anyhow. Its probably not the most comfy place to set up kip, but at least its not Stygia.
#5
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 1:40:17 Whoah, back up there. A ring 5 miles in diameter doesn't have a "five-mile area". The official chant from In The Cage gives Sigil's size as 5 miles in diameter and 20 miles in circumference, as measured by the Harmonium. Now, anyone with a basic grasp of mathematics can tell that the Harmonium can't measure worth a damn, because the circumference of a circle with 5-mile diameter is (2 * pi * 2.5) = 15.71 miles, and the diameter of a ring with circumference 20 should be ((2 * 20) / (2 * pi) = 6.36 miles.

They explain this away by saying that "in actuality, the Lady can shrink or enlarge the city as she wills, at any time". R-i-i-i-ight. The real problem with determining the city's area, however, is that there's no indication of how wide the city is in any of the published material I have. I suppose you could get a decent estimate by measuring the height and width of the maps in In The Cage, but that's more trouble than I'm interested in going to... and besides, I doubt they're to scale anyhow.

In my campaign, I made things easier on myself by just arbitrarily calling the circumference of Sigil 24 miles, so that each mile is a neat 15 degrees of the ring. All landmarks from In The Cage and Factol's Manifesto are referenced in a big list by degree offset from the Lady's Ward, so I can quickly calculate how long it'll take to get to various places in the city at whatever rate or whatever time of day. I can post it if anyone's interested, but it's kind of long.

(You can tell I spend way too much time working on the stupid little details.)
#6
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 2:40:08 Sorry, no, I wasn't very clear about the 5 mile area (which should have said diameter). As for the Lady shriking and expanding Sigil, I doubt she does that so much as to alter actual Actually, I'd be interested in seeing your distance reference, if its not too much trouble to post.
#7
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 12:06:15 Well, I'll post a link to it. The "zero" point of the circle is at the boundary between the Lady's Ward and Market Ward, and everything is measured in terms of a degree offset from there. The size of each ward and the location of some of the landmarks were eyeballed from the circular map at the beginning of In The Cage. While most of the actual landmark positions are completely made up, it follows the books as far as statements like "X is near Y" are concerned. So to figure out how long it would take a basher to walk from the City Courts to the Hall of Records, you'd just measure the difference in degrees (199 - 41 = 158) and multiply that by the indicated walking speeds (158 * 72 / 60 = 189.6) -- so just a little over 3 hours. It's a bit complicated, yes, but it's a hell of a lot easier than drawing a map of a toroidal city.

Comments welcome!

Movement in Sigil
#8
zombiegleemax
Sep 09, 2003 2:05:41
5-mile diameter is (2 * pi * 2.5) = 15.71 miles,

While that will get you the circumference, given Sigil's stacked style of building and living area would be more appropriate. Since area is pi r squared=19.62 square miles thats closer to the Harmoniums 20 mile figure. Of course the Harmonium still can't count. The only thing this really shows is that Sigil is relatively small and crowded with bodies. Which is the way it was always described.
#9
zombiegleemax
Sep 09, 2003 9:56:26 The problem with just calculating the area of the circle is that Sigil isn't built on the surface of a circle; it's built on the inside face of a ring. We can't really calculate the surface area of that inside face because we know only the diameter of the ring, and not its height or degree of curvature. (Though I suppose one could get a decent estimate by measuring the existing illustrations, if one was so inclined.)
#10
primemover003
Sep 09, 2003 21:46:46 People Sigil is 5 miles WIDE not 5 miles in Diameter. The width of the ring is the only certainty from In the Cage. The Circumference changes according to the Lady's whims. And one million is a transient population. The Merchants and travellers stopping in Sigil because of it's portals. It's like Vegas during peak vacation season... Bustling, busy, and crowded!!!
#11
zombiegleemax
Sep 09, 2003 22:02:07 Has anyone yet considered that Sigil's size has remained vague for a reason? It is, after all, and impossible city to begin with.

That said, in my campaign, Sigil is officially 20mi circumference and 1mi wide. I used the 20 mile Harmonium thing and made it 1 mile wide so that it resembled Manhattan island of New York City (which I am convinced is what Sigil was modelled after...but then, as a signer living in NYC, I would). Considering the amount of people that exist in NYC during a given day, I'd say that 1 million is very low for Sigil, even though their buildings are substancially shorter.
#12
wyvern76
Sep 09, 2003 22:50:35
Originally posted by primemover003
People Sigil is 5 miles WIDE not 5 miles in Diameter. The width of the ring is the only certainty from In the Cage.

Okay, so we have some people saying it's five miles wide, and some people saying it's five miles in diameter. I don't have In the Cage to check for myself. Would someone who does be kind enough to give an exact quote so that I can form my own conclusions about what was meant?

Originally posted by Go Eata Pita
Considering the amount of people that exist in NYC during a given day, I'd say that 1 million is very low for Sigil, even though their buildings are substancially shorter.

But how much of the population of NYC lives on Manhattan Island? Not anywhere close to 1 million, I'll wager. And "substantially shorter" is an understatement; without elevators and modern construction materials, a 10-story building is going to be considered very tall. Sigil is far more like medieval London than modern-day Manhattan.

Wyvern
#13
zombiegleemax
Sep 10, 2003 0:10:09 The exact quote is as follows: "With a 5-mile diameter and 20-mile circumference (as officially measured by the Harmonium; in actuality, the Lady can enlarge or shrink the city as she wills, at any time), Sigil's huge, but it ain't infinite." Page 6. Hence, the Harmonium can't count. :D

As for modern Manhattan vs. medieval London thing, I'd submit that the city it most resembles is London of the 19th century, during which its size stayed fairly constant but its population burgeoned from 800,000 to over 3 million in 70 years. You've got the Lower Ward pollution, inspired by the coal fumes that powered London's industry; the Hive Ward overcrowding, which in real life was considerably worse than anything they describe in the Planescape material; the cant, most of which is actual 17th-to-19th-century British lower-class slang; and so on. London was actually quite small compared to most European cities until the Industrial Revolution.
#14
saurstalk
Sep 15, 2003 13:06:42 I'm running a campaign that will eventually lead the PCs into the planes via portal. Their first leap will be the 665th lair of the abyss (modeled after the same lair in the Blood War Trilogy). From there, they will make their escape into one of the Lady's Mazes. SURPRISE! There, they will meet a tour guide of sorts, who has the cant on Sigil and the Lady. (He's an awakened giant cockroach Sorcerer who is quite intent on building a church that worships the Lady of Pain.) Granted, once he helps the PCs escape the maze, he'll start up his worship again, and immediately get mazed out - leaving the PCs in the streets of Sigil - and completely ignorant.

What I need is some reference materials that'll help me make out the big picture of Sigil. Maps, NPCs, storylines and the like that I can reference. (Granted, I'll most likely have to upgrade NPCs to 3.5, but that's okay.) I'm limited on reading time, so I'd like the easiest and most intensive reads available.

I have the 2nd Edition boxed set, which has some valuable rudimentary information, but if the PCs are going to be in a roleplaying world, consisting of Sigil, I need the cant on Sigil itself, so that I can keep the campaign moving seamlessly.
#15
zombiegleemax
Sep 15, 2003 15:26:18 You want a copy of In The Cage: A Guide To Sigil, which is a tour guide of sorts for the city's six wards. Very useful if you're running a campaign set largely in Sigil. Naturally, it's hard to find in hardcopy, but you can get a PDF copy online for $5.00 from svgames.

Other useful (but not quite as essential) sourcebooks are The Factol's Manifesto, a guide to faction politics and personalities, and Uncaged: Faces of Sigil, which presents many interesting NPCs of Sigil and some plot threads which hook them together. They're also available as PDFs. Good luck!
#16
saurstalk
Sep 15, 2003 16:22:53
Originally posted by Fimmtiu
You want a copy of In The Cage: A Guide To Sigil, which is a tour guide of sorts for the city's six wards. Very useful if you're running a campaign set largely in Sigil. Naturally, it's hard to find in hardcopy, but you can get a PDF copy online for $5.00 from svgames.

Other useful (but not quite as essential) sourcebooks are The Factol's Manifesto, a guide to faction politics and personalities, and Uncaged: Faces of Sigil, which presents many interesting NPCs of Sigil and some plot threads which hook them together. They're also available as PDFs. Good luck!

Are you aware of whether anyone has attempted to "3.5" the various NPCs in the last named book?

Also, as I'm still pretty much a greenhorn about the faction mess, how relevant do you think the Manifesto is if we move along with the times?

Thanks. I'll starting looking for In the Cage and Uncaged.
#17
zombiegleemax
Sep 15, 2003 16:42:39 Even though Sigil has changed with Faction War, the Factol's Manifesto is still quite useful. Some of the Factions are still around, and their HQs are given a healthy dose of fluffy treatment in the Manifesto. Even the former HQs in Sigil can still be used for new purposes. Also, the Factol's Manifesto simply put, is one of the best RPG books, period. Its well worth the money even if you have no intention of ever playing in Planescape.
#18
zombiegleemax
Sep 16, 2003 2:58:58 mach 2.5 is right, the factols manifesto is a great book, and well worth the $5 you pay for the PDF. If you can afford to shell out the cash I would advise you get the hardcopy. The artwork looks really good in print.
#19
caoslayer
Sep 16, 2003 6:44:08 I readed in the FM that 1,000,000 people joined the Freedom Leage after the Great U. , that means that sigil had at about 1,000,000 people.

Also you can have an idea adding the numbers of each faction
#20
zombiegleemax
Sep 16, 2003 9:57:16 Quite right about the Free League after the Upheaval. But then they all started dying off from some mysterious plague that they don't like to talk about that only struck people from the FL. Of course, once their numbers dropped down to more managable levels, they plague stopped as quickly as it started . . .
#21
clueless
Sep 27, 2003 4:04:37
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Quite right about the Free League after the Upheaval. But then they all started dying off from some mysterious plague that they don't like to talk about that only struck people from the FL. Of course, once their numbers dropped down to more managable levels, they plague stopped as quickly as it started . . .

... We don't talk about that.

*ahem*

But for how many people manage to live int hat size a city? Dont' forget they build up *and* down. Buildings are multi-storied, and you can dig into the ground in Sigil - in fact thats an UnderSigil... To give you an idea of the possibilities of *that* - the underside of New York City, where there are in fact people living, is larger than *New York City*. ;) So expect some interesting architecture as well as the question of diameter/width/radius/torque. (Last one added for fun) It's also well known that Sigil curves at the edges - so it's more a torus than a short cylinder.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 10:02:50	I was wondering how big is the population of sigil? any ideas. thanks.
#2 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 16:14:05	Well I gueesing with its size, purpose and location at least 100,000 most likeliy ALOT more.
#3 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 17:18:02	From "The Cage: A Guide to Sigil" Population: 1,000,000 guys and girls City Size: 5-miles-diameter ... Now I wonder how one million of guys can live in such a little space. I houseruled that my Sigil is 5-miles-radius, not 5-miles-diameter
#4 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 0:44:44	Two things to keep in mind. Sigil is very old and its space is quite limited. How do 1 mil people fit into a five mile area? Very tightly. The population densities, especially for the poorer sections, are likely very high. It is described in several sources that new houses are built on top of older houses, even in some of the nicer wards. There's also likely a small percentage of the population living in the under region beneath Sigil. Multi generational living arrangements would also keep things a little tighter. Does Sigil have the room to support 1,000,000 souls? No, but it manages anyhow. Its probably not the most comfy place to set up kip, but at least its not Stygia.
#5 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 1:40:17	Whoah, back up there. A ring 5 miles in diameter doesn't have a "five-mile area". The official chant from In The Cage gives Sigil's size as 5 miles in diameter and 20 miles in circumference, as measured by the Harmonium. Now, anyone with a basic grasp of mathematics can tell that the Harmonium can't measure worth a damn, because the circumference of a circle with 5-mile diameter is (2 * pi * 2.5) = 15.71 miles, and the diameter of a ring with circumference 20 should be ((2 * 20) / (2 * pi) = 6.36 miles. They explain this away by saying that "in actuality, the Lady can shrink or enlarge the city as she wills, at any time". R-i-i-i-ight. The real problem with determining the city's area, however, is that there's no indication of how wide the city is in any of the published material I have. I suppose you could get a decent estimate by measuring the height and width of the maps in In The Cage, but that's more trouble than I'm interested in going to... and besides, I doubt they're to scale anyhow. In my campaign, I made things easier on myself by just arbitrarily calling the circumference of Sigil 24 miles, so that each mile is a neat 15 degrees of the ring. All landmarks from In The Cage and Factol's Manifesto are referenced in a big list by degree offset from the Lady's Ward, so I can quickly calculate how long it'll take to get to various places in the city at whatever rate or whatever time of day. I can post it if anyone's interested, but it's kind of long. (You can tell I spend way too much time working on the stupid little details.)
#6 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 2:40:08	Sorry, no, I wasn't very clear about the 5 mile area (which should have said diameter). As for the Lady shriking and expanding Sigil, I doubt she does that so much as to alter actual Actually, I'd be interested in seeing your distance reference, if its not too much trouble to post.
#7 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 12:06:15	Well, I'll post a link to it. The "zero" point of the circle is at the boundary between the Lady's Ward and Market Ward, and everything is measured in terms of a degree offset from there. The size of each ward and the location of some of the landmarks were eyeballed from the circular map at the beginning of In The Cage. While most of the actual landmark positions are completely made up, it follows the books as far as statements like "X is near Y" are concerned. So to figure out how long it would take a basher to walk from the City Courts to the Hall of Records, you'd just measure the difference in degrees (199 - 41 = 158) and multiply that by the indicated walking speeds (158 * 72 / 60 = 189.6) -- so just a little over 3 hours. It's a bit complicated, yes, but it's a hell of a lot easier than drawing a map of a toroidal city. Comments welcome! Movement in Sigil
#8 zombiegleemax Sep 09, 2003 2:05:41	5-mile diameter is (2 * pi * 2.5) = 15.71 miles, While that will get you the circumference, given Sigil's stacked style of building and living area would be more appropriate. Since area is pi r squared=19.62 square miles thats closer to the Harmoniums 20 mile figure. Of course the Harmonium still can't count. The only thing this really shows is that Sigil is relatively small and crowded with bodies. Which is the way it was always described.
#9 zombiegleemax Sep 09, 2003 9:56:26	The problem with just calculating the area of the circle is that Sigil isn't built on the surface of a circle; it's built on the inside face of a ring. We can't really calculate the surface area of that inside face because we know only the diameter of the ring, and not its height or degree of curvature. (Though I suppose one could get a decent estimate by measuring the existing illustrations, if one was so inclined.)
#10 primemover003 Sep 09, 2003 21:46:46	People Sigil is 5 miles WIDE not 5 miles in Diameter. The width of the ring is the only certainty from In the Cage. The Circumference changes according to the Lady's whims. And one million is a transient population. The Merchants and travellers stopping in Sigil because of it's portals. It's like Vegas during peak vacation season... Bustling, busy, and crowded!!!
#11 zombiegleemax Sep 09, 2003 22:02:07	Has anyone yet considered that Sigil's size has remained vague for a reason? It is, after all, and impossible city to begin with. That said, in my campaign, Sigil is officially 20mi circumference and 1mi wide. I used the 20 mile Harmonium thing and made it 1 mile wide so that it resembled Manhattan island of New York City (which I am convinced is what Sigil was modelled after...but then, as a signer living in NYC, I would). Considering the amount of people that exist in NYC during a given day, I'd say that 1 million is very low for Sigil, even though their buildings are substancially shorter.
#12 wyvern76 Sep 09, 2003 22:50:35	Originally posted by primemover003 People Sigil is 5 miles WIDE not 5 miles in Diameter. The width of the ring is the only certainty from In the Cage. Okay, so we have some people saying it's five miles wide, and some people saying it's five miles in diameter. I don't have In the Cage to check for myself. Would someone who does be kind enough to give an exact quote so that I can form my own conclusions about what was meant? Originally posted by Go Eata Pita Considering the amount of people that exist in NYC during a given day, I'd say that 1 million is very low for Sigil, even though their buildings are substancially shorter. But how much of the population of NYC lives on Manhattan Island? Not anywhere close to 1 million, I'll wager. And "substantially shorter" is an understatement; without elevators and modern construction materials, a 10-story building is going to be considered very tall. Sigil is far more like medieval London than modern-day Manhattan. Wyvern
#13 zombiegleemax Sep 10, 2003 0:10:09	The exact quote is as follows: "With a 5-mile diameter and 20-mile circumference (as officially measured by the Harmonium; in actuality, the Lady can enlarge or shrink the city as she wills, at any time), Sigil's huge, but it ain't infinite." Page 6. Hence, the Harmonium can't count. :D As for modern Manhattan vs. medieval London thing, I'd submit that the city it most resembles is London of the 19th century, during which its size stayed fairly constant but its population burgeoned from 800,000 to over 3 million in 70 years. You've got the Lower Ward pollution, inspired by the coal fumes that powered London's industry; the Hive Ward overcrowding, which in real life was considerably worse than anything they describe in the Planescape material; the cant, most of which is actual 17th-to-19th-century British lower-class slang; and so on. London was actually quite small compared to most European cities until the Industrial Revolution.
#14 saurstalk Sep 15, 2003 13:06:42	I'm running a campaign that will eventually lead the PCs into the planes via portal. Their first leap will be the 665th lair of the abyss (modeled after the same lair in the Blood War Trilogy). From there, they will make their escape into one of the Lady's Mazes. SURPRISE! There, they will meet a tour guide of sorts, who has the cant on Sigil and the Lady. (He's an awakened giant cockroach Sorcerer who is quite intent on building a church that worships the Lady of Pain.) Granted, once he helps the PCs escape the maze, he'll start up his worship again, and immediately get mazed out - leaving the PCs in the streets of Sigil - and completely ignorant. What I need is some reference materials that'll help me make out the big picture of Sigil. Maps, NPCs, storylines and the like that I can reference. (Granted, I'll most likely have to upgrade NPCs to 3.5, but that's okay.) I'm limited on reading time, so I'd like the easiest and most intensive reads available. I have the 2nd Edition boxed set, which has some valuable rudimentary information, but if the PCs are going to be in a roleplaying world, consisting of Sigil, I need the cant on Sigil itself, so that I can keep the campaign moving seamlessly.
#15 zombiegleemax Sep 15, 2003 15:26:18	You want a copy of In The Cage: A Guide To Sigil, which is a tour guide of sorts for the city's six wards. Very useful if you're running a campaign set largely in Sigil. Naturally, it's hard to find in hardcopy, but you can get a PDF copy online for $5.00 from svgames. Other useful (but not quite as essential) sourcebooks are The Factol's Manifesto, a guide to faction politics and personalities, and Uncaged: Faces of Sigil, which presents many interesting NPCs of Sigil and some plot threads which hook them together. They're also available as PDFs. Good luck!
#16 saurstalk Sep 15, 2003 16:22:53	Originally posted by Fimmtiu You want a copy of In The Cage: A Guide To Sigil, which is a tour guide of sorts for the city's six wards. Very useful if you're running a campaign set largely in Sigil. Naturally, it's hard to find in hardcopy, but you can get a PDF copy online for $5.00 from svgames. Other useful (but not quite as essential) sourcebooks are The Factol's Manifesto, a guide to faction politics and personalities, and Uncaged: Faces of Sigil, which presents many interesting NPCs of Sigil and some plot threads which hook them together. They're also available as PDFs. Good luck! Are you aware of whether anyone has attempted to "3.5" the various NPCs in the last named book? Also, as I'm still pretty much a greenhorn about the faction mess, how relevant do you think the Manifesto is if we move along with the times? Thanks. I'll starting looking for In the Cage and Uncaged.
#17 zombiegleemax Sep 15, 2003 16:42:39	Even though Sigil has changed with Faction War, the Factol's Manifesto is still quite useful. Some of the Factions are still around, and their HQs are given a healthy dose of fluffy treatment in the Manifesto. Even the former HQs in Sigil can still be used for new purposes. Also, the Factol's Manifesto simply put, is one of the best RPG books, period. Its well worth the money even if you have no intention of ever playing in Planescape.
#18 zombiegleemax Sep 16, 2003 2:58:58	mach 2.5 is right, the factols manifesto is a great book, and well worth the $5 you pay for the PDF. If you can afford to shell out the cash I would advise you get the hardcopy. The artwork looks really good in print.
#19 caoslayer Sep 16, 2003 6:44:08	I readed in the FM that 1,000,000 people joined the Freedom Leage after the Great U. , that means that sigil had at about 1,000,000 people. Also you can have an idea adding the numbers of each faction
#20 zombiegleemax Sep 16, 2003 9:57:16	Quite right about the Free League after the Upheaval. But then they all started dying off from some mysterious plague that they don't like to talk about that only struck people from the FL. Of course, once their numbers dropped down to more managable levels, they plague stopped as quickly as it started . . .
#21 clueless Sep 27, 2003 4:04:37	Originally posted by Mach2.5 Quite right about the Free League after the Upheaval. But then they all started dying off from some mysterious plague that they don't like to talk about that only struck people from the FL. Of course, once their numbers dropped down to more managable levels, they plague stopped as quickly as it started . . . ... We don't talk about that. ahem But for how many people manage to live int hat size a city? Dont' forget they build up and down. Buildings are multi-storied, and you can dig into the ground in Sigil - in fact thats an UnderSigil... To give you an idea of the possibilities of that - the underside of New York City, where there are in fact people living, is larger than New York City. ;) So expect some interesting architecture as well as the question of diameter/width/radius/torque. (Last one added for fun) It's also well known that Sigil curves at the edges - so it's more a torus than a short cylinder.