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Weenie Dragonlances?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 10:41:26 So has anyone else noticed that the dragonlances in the new book seem significanly weaker than they were in 1st or 2nd edition?

All they get is a 2d6 bonus to damage vs dragons. Before, it did damge equal to the total remaining hitpoints of the wielder (or equal to the hitpoints of the wielder plus his mount if he was riding a dragon)... In the hands of a high level fighter (with most of his hit points in tact) it was a devasting weapon.

But when you consider just how much more powerfull the average dragon is in 3rd edtion as compared to previous rules sets... doing an extra 7 points of damage (on average) per hit is helpful - but not as "devastating" as the rulebook claims. Of course a greater dragonlance deals permanent Constitution damage - but as I understand, greater dragonlances are rather rare and a player character would be hard pressed to ever aquire one.

Maybe I'm over reacting -- I suppose the same fighter i mentioned earlier would be at a disadvantage if his hitpoints were low... A fighter reduced to 3 hitpoints weilding an "old school" dragonlance would only inflict 3 points of damage against a dragon!!!!!

Hmmm

ANyone else have any thoughts on this??
#2
kalanth
Sep 06, 2003 10:49:45 The dragonlances are considered to be Bane weapons against dragons. I don't have the rules on me, but if I remember right, that means they are close to being just as nasty as before. I don't really know, but aside from the chronicals, when was the last documented use of a Dragonlance anyways?
#3
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 10:58:19 The "bane" special ability in the DMG states that the weapon does an additional 2d6 points of damage, and an additional +2 to the weapon's normal enchantment bonus, to the specified creature type.
#4
baron_the_curse
Sep 06, 2003 12:33:08 The dragonlances have been significantly de-powered. The greater dragonlances are pretty devastating with their new ability to permanently drain a dragon’s CON. But consider that the old edition allowed the dragon to fire its breath weapon for double damage and the dragon rider could fire the dragon’s breath weapon as well with the dragonlance. We where looking at 30-60 dice worth of damage. Then again there was a risk of the dragon dying after so many uses and rolling so many dice is daunting.
#5
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 13:56:20 And, and I don't have the 2e books in front of me, but dragons have more HP now, too, so it is even weaker.

ESPECIALLY compared to 1e. An ancient red dragon had a whopping 88 hit points, back then.
#6
baron_the_curse
Sep 06, 2003 14:01:39 Yeah, your avarage Red Dragon now can have up 300 something HP.
#7
iltharanos
Sep 06, 2003 14:36:05
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Yeah, your avarage Red Dragon now can have up 300 something HP.

Hell, the great wyrm red dragon has something around 660 hp. Great wyrm golds are 700+. Besides, I think the downgrade in the sheer power of the dragonlances is to reflect how dragons are the top of the food chain on Krynn. If dragons were so easy to eliminate merely because you had a dragonlance then much of the great fear and trepidation associated with doing battle with dragons would lose its bite.

2nd edition dragons were ridiculously weak. A fighter of moderately high level would likely hand even old dragons their tails, without any real threat to their lives.
#8
silvanthalas
Sep 06, 2003 14:49:57
but aside from the chronicals, when was the last documented use of a Dragonlance anyways?

War of Souls.
#9
kalanth
Sep 06, 2003 14:57:56 thanks Silvathalas. I have not finished reading the War of the Souls trilogy, so I had no clue.
#10
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 15:00:47 Awhile back, Chris Coyle, one of the designers of the new book, explained on the forum just why the dragonlances were significantly reduced. Look at the novels. How many times in any of the novels did a dragon die after just one hit with a dragonlance. They did extensive research at SP, and were guided by Wies, and called Hickman for advice. They didn't find a source other than the old rules that stated that the dragonlances were that powerful. Even when used in the novels, they didn't do that much damage. That's why they were toned down in v3.5.
#11
cam_banks
Sep 06, 2003 16:18:24 The power of dragonlances has not been significantly reduced. They remain the most potent anti-dragon weapon in the setting, ignoring damage reduction, inflicting bane damage, and (in the case of greater dragonlances) dealing permanent Con drain which also results in a huge loss of hit points and a reduction in the save DC of the dragon's breath weapon and crush attacks.

The super-powered breath-weapon-projecting lances of Tales of the Lance were utterly ridiculous and never appeared in any other product. I still recall being stunned by the idea. Best shelve them in the same place as the half-orc in Kendermore.

Cheers,
Cam
#12
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 17:40:40 Dragonlances, both lesser and greater, ignore the damage reduction of all dragons. Period. It was in the original write up but somehow got taken out. A dragonlance will not bounce off the scales of a dragon unless the wielder makes a poor strike ;)

Remember, the information on the dragonlances in the DLCS is for the "standard/run of the mill" dragonlance...not for the unique ones, like Huma's Dragonlance (the 1st dragonlance ever created), the Lance of Theroes (the 1st one constructed by the silver armed Ergothian), the Shattered Lance (the lance that played an important role in Vanished Moon), and other lances...each of them is unique.

There are other unique dragonlances in the world, each one crafted for a specific purpose and a special destiny. These unique lances stand apart from the others because they are so special. One of a kind! Not crafted en masse in an 'assembly line.' ;)

Christopher
#13
baron_the_curse
Sep 06, 2003 18:40:05 I liked the idea of the super-breath-weapon dragonlance. Sure, I never used one in my campaign, but I always enjoyed reading ridiculously powerful artifacts that left me in awe. I specially love the part where the Head of the Order of High Sorcery and the Chosen Prophet of Paladine hunt you down if you ever kill your dragon do to misuse. It's kinda like reading Drizzt stats when he was a demi-god. It's just for fun.
#14
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 22:01:16 Hmm all very interesting...

Yes It all makes a little more sense now:

The dragonlances are the weapon of choice when fighting dragons - while still allowing dragons to strike terror into the hearts of mere humans.

I suppose if you can run around slaying dragons in one hit, dragons lose their grandeur. (This happend once in a Dragonlance campaign I was running a few years back - it involved a high level minotaur fighter with a con of 20, a dragonlance and a loud-mouth kender -- it wasn't pretty)
#15
carteeg
Sep 08, 2003 7:11:21 I have no problems with the Greater Dragonlances. The lesser ones however I found too watered down (especially since they are the major lances used in the WotL modules).

The only change I put on the lessers in order to boost them up while keeping them much weeker than the greaters was to put in that upon hitting an evil dragon, 1 point of temporary Con damage is given to the dragon. Critical hitting or charging does not increase this Con drop in any way shape or form. This way, with ever two hits, the Con Mod on the dragon is decreased and the proper number of hit points from the bonus is lost.

I found it to be enough to put the fear into a dragon when going up against even one of the lances, while still making it so that the dragon is a challenge (especially since it can leave and come back latter (possibly) at full strength).

Just a house rule suggestion if you don't like the official stuff.
#16
ranger_reg
Sep 08, 2003 21:42:39 Just curious but what are their critical hit/damage multiplier values?
#17
zombiegleemax
Sep 08, 2003 21:50:17
Originally posted by Stormprince
Dragonlances, both lesser and greater, ignore the damage reduction of all dragons. Period.

This doesn't seem like much of a bonus. Most dragons
have damage reduction of x/Magic. So a +1 sword
ignores the damage reduction of most dragons.
#18
cam_banks
Sep 08, 2003 23:05:23
Originally posted by residieu
This doesn't seem like much of a bonus. Most dragons
have damage reduction of x/Magic. So a +1 sword
ignores the damage reduction of most dragons.

It also ignores epic DR, which of course only comes up in cases like the Dragon Overlords, but there it is.

Cheers,
Cam

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 10:41:26	So has anyone else noticed that the dragonlances in the new book seem significanly weaker than they were in 1st or 2nd edition? All they get is a 2d6 bonus to damage vs dragons. Before, it did damge equal to the total remaining hitpoints of the wielder (or equal to the hitpoints of the wielder plus his mount if he was riding a dragon)... In the hands of a high level fighter (with most of his hit points in tact) it was a devasting weapon. But when you consider just how much more powerfull the average dragon is in 3rd edtion as compared to previous rules sets... doing an extra 7 points of damage (on average) per hit is helpful - but not as "devastating" as the rulebook claims. Of course a greater dragonlance deals permanent Constitution damage - but as I understand, greater dragonlances are rather rare and a player character would be hard pressed to ever aquire one. Maybe I'm over reacting -- I suppose the same fighter i mentioned earlier would be at a disadvantage if his hitpoints were low... A fighter reduced to 3 hitpoints weilding an "old school" dragonlance would only inflict 3 points of damage against a dragon!!!!! Hmmm ANyone else have any thoughts on this??
#2 kalanth Sep 06, 2003 10:49:45	The dragonlances are considered to be Bane weapons against dragons. I don't have the rules on me, but if I remember right, that means they are close to being just as nasty as before. I don't really know, but aside from the chronicals, when was the last documented use of a Dragonlance anyways?
#3 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 10:58:19	The "bane" special ability in the DMG states that the weapon does an additional 2d6 points of damage, and an additional +2 to the weapon's normal enchantment bonus, to the specified creature type.
#4 baron_the_curse Sep 06, 2003 12:33:08	The dragonlances have been significantly de-powered. The greater dragonlances are pretty devastating with their new ability to permanently drain a dragon’s CON. But consider that the old edition allowed the dragon to fire its breath weapon for double damage and the dragon rider could fire the dragon’s breath weapon as well with the dragonlance. We where looking at 30-60 dice worth of damage. Then again there was a risk of the dragon dying after so many uses and rolling so many dice is daunting.
#5 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 13:56:20	And, and I don't have the 2e books in front of me, but dragons have more HP now, too, so it is even weaker. ESPECIALLY compared to 1e. An ancient red dragon had a whopping 88 hit points, back then.
#6 baron_the_curse Sep 06, 2003 14:01:39	Yeah, your avarage Red Dragon now can have up 300 something HP.
#7 iltharanos Sep 06, 2003 14:36:05	Originally posted by Baron the Curse Yeah, your avarage Red Dragon now can have up 300 something HP. Hell, the great wyrm red dragon has something around 660 hp. Great wyrm golds are 700+. Besides, I think the downgrade in the sheer power of the dragonlances is to reflect how dragons are the top of the food chain on Krynn. If dragons were so easy to eliminate merely because you had a dragonlance then much of the great fear and trepidation associated with doing battle with dragons would lose its bite. 2nd edition dragons were ridiculously weak. A fighter of moderately high level would likely hand even old dragons their tails, without any real threat to their lives.
#8 silvanthalas Sep 06, 2003 14:49:57	but aside from the chronicals, when was the last documented use of a Dragonlance anyways? War of Souls.
#9 kalanth Sep 06, 2003 14:57:56	thanks Silvathalas. I have not finished reading the War of the Souls trilogy, so I had no clue.
#10 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 15:00:47	Awhile back, Chris Coyle, one of the designers of the new book, explained on the forum just why the dragonlances were significantly reduced. Look at the novels. How many times in any of the novels did a dragon die after just one hit with a dragonlance. They did extensive research at SP, and were guided by Wies, and called Hickman for advice. They didn't find a source other than the old rules that stated that the dragonlances were that powerful. Even when used in the novels, they didn't do that much damage. That's why they were toned down in v3.5.
#11 cam_banks Sep 06, 2003 16:18:24	The power of dragonlances has not been significantly reduced. They remain the most potent anti-dragon weapon in the setting, ignoring damage reduction, inflicting bane damage, and (in the case of greater dragonlances) dealing permanent Con drain which also results in a huge loss of hit points and a reduction in the save DC of the dragon's breath weapon and crush attacks. The super-powered breath-weapon-projecting lances of Tales of the Lance were utterly ridiculous and never appeared in any other product. I still recall being stunned by the idea. Best shelve them in the same place as the half-orc in Kendermore. Cheers, Cam
#12 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 17:40:40	Dragonlances, both lesser and greater, ignore the damage reduction of all dragons. Period. It was in the original write up but somehow got taken out. A dragonlance will not bounce off the scales of a dragon unless the wielder makes a poor strike ;) Remember, the information on the dragonlances in the DLCS is for the "standard/run of the mill" dragonlance...not for the unique ones, like Huma's Dragonlance (the 1st dragonlance ever created), the Lance of Theroes (the 1st one constructed by the silver armed Ergothian), the Shattered Lance (the lance that played an important role in Vanished Moon), and other lances...each of them is unique. There are other unique dragonlances in the world, each one crafted for a specific purpose and a special destiny. These unique lances stand apart from the others because they are so special. One of a kind! Not crafted en masse in an 'assembly line.' ;) Christopher
#13 baron_the_curse Sep 06, 2003 18:40:05	I liked the idea of the super-breath-weapon dragonlance. Sure, I never used one in my campaign, but I always enjoyed reading ridiculously powerful artifacts that left me in awe. I specially love the part where the Head of the Order of High Sorcery and the Chosen Prophet of Paladine hunt you down if you ever kill your dragon do to misuse. It's kinda like reading Drizzt stats when he was a demi-god. It's just for fun.
#14 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 22:01:16	Hmm all very interesting... Yes It all makes a little more sense now: The dragonlances are the weapon of choice when fighting dragons - while still allowing dragons to strike terror into the hearts of mere humans. I suppose if you can run around slaying dragons in one hit, dragons lose their grandeur. (This happend once in a Dragonlance campaign I was running a few years back - it involved a high level minotaur fighter with a con of 20, a dragonlance and a loud-mouth kender -- it wasn't pretty)
#15 carteeg Sep 08, 2003 7:11:21	I have no problems with the Greater Dragonlances. The lesser ones however I found too watered down (especially since they are the major lances used in the WotL modules). The only change I put on the lessers in order to boost them up while keeping them much weeker than the greaters was to put in that upon hitting an evil dragon, 1 point of temporary Con damage is given to the dragon. Critical hitting or charging does not increase this Con drop in any way shape or form. This way, with ever two hits, the Con Mod on the dragon is decreased and the proper number of hit points from the bonus is lost. I found it to be enough to put the fear into a dragon when going up against even one of the lances, while still making it so that the dragon is a challenge (especially since it can leave and come back latter (possibly) at full strength). Just a house rule suggestion if you don't like the official stuff.
#16 ranger_reg Sep 08, 2003 21:42:39	Just curious but what are their critical hit/damage multiplier values?
#17 zombiegleemax Sep 08, 2003 21:50:17	Originally posted by Stormprince Dragonlances, both lesser and greater, ignore the damage reduction of all dragons. Period. This doesn't seem like much of a bonus. Most dragons have damage reduction of x/Magic. So a +1 sword ignores the damage reduction of most dragons.
#18 cam_banks Sep 08, 2003 23:05:23	Originally posted by residieu This doesn't seem like much of a bonus. Most dragons have damage reduction of x/Magic. So a +1 sword ignores the damage reduction of most dragons. It also ignores epic DR, which of course only comes up in cases like the Dragon Overlords, but there it is. Cheers, Cam