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multiclassed characters

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2003 22:42:55 Gonna start a new campaign soon, first ever. using 3.5 rules and the new dlcs. I remember seeing a thread on the old boards discussing Ariakus and Multiclassed "wizards and...". I wanna showcase all the various aspects of Dl and start my campaign during the Blue Ladys War and eventually time travel to the Fifth Age, I was wondering on how such multiclassed characters work. would someone like Ariakas be considered a renegade for defying traditions of the WOHS, by becoming a fighter? Or would the WOHS turn a blind eye since he left the orders to become a warrior? The reason I ask is one Character expressed interest in the Arcane Archer PRC, which I would think wouldn't be available until sorcery is discovered. opinions/comments?
#2
Dragonhelm
Sep 06, 2003 23:41:43 Ariakas' classes are something that have been in dispute for a very long time. While I think we can agree that he has fighter levels (and probably legendary tactician), there is some debate on whether his secondary class was cleric or wizard. Some sources say cleric, some say wizard.

Multi-classing in DL is sort of tricky. My general rule-of-thumb is that any class that gains spellcasting abilities from a god should multi-class with other classes that further the goals and ideals of that god. For example, clerics of Kiri-Jolith could also be fighters and paladins, while clerics of Chislev could also be druids and rangers.

In the case of wizards, my rule-of-thumb is that they are dedicated to the magic, and therefore can only multi-class with arcane spellcasting classes that also draw their power from the gods of magic. I think of them in terms of the paladin or monk.

I could see a WoHS multiclassing with such classes as the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage and War Mage (from Age of Mortals), as well as the archmage from the DMG.

The Arcane Archer, IMO, is much better suited for the sorcerer. The combat arts are not really up the alley of the WoHS, and they may frown upon this. The sorcerer has no such restrictions.

The Enhance Arrow ability you get at every other level also suggests sorcery, as one of the Realms of Sorcery taught at Palin Majere's Academy of Sorcery is Enhancement.

I think the big difference between wizards and sorcerers in DL is that wizards still have that traditional feel to them, while sorcerers give you options not normally available to wizards.

Truly, the best of both worlds.
#3
cam_banks
Sep 07, 2003 7:28:29 Ariakas was a former wizard of the Black Robes - this was established in Chronicles, despite the fact that in the modules the character was a cleric. Margaret and Tracy decided that another evil cleric villain would amount to a repeat of Verminaard and thus went instead with wizard.

Whether or not Ariakas had 23 levels of wizard instead of the 23 levels of cleric he has in his module statistics is of course still up for debate, but I doubt it. It's far more likely that, defying the Orders, he took up the weapons of war and (as stated in the novel text) practiced his magic "infrequently". One assumes that due to his incredible backing and status, even this renegade behavior was left unchallenged by the Orders. My own theory is that Ariakas was one of Takhisis' early experiments in directing arcane magic to a loyal servant, predating the Knights of the Thorn. It would make sense, given who Ariakas' son was.

Note that it's Ariakas' father who was the cleric. I believe this is in some sense covered by Doug Niles in Emperor of Ansalon but it's become something of a confusing canonical issue.

Cheers,
Cam
#4
jonesy
Sep 07, 2003 7:38:35
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Note that it's Ariakas' father who was the cleric. I believe this is in some sense covered by Doug Niles in Emperor of Ansalon but it's become something of a confusing canonical issue.

Which is of course also open to debate. I find the whole 'it was his father' explanation to be humorous. Emperor of Ansalon doesn't say anything definitive either way in regards to that theory.

I resolved the issue by making Ariakas a wizard who found that the arts weren't really his thing. Thus he became a mercenary fighter in Blöde, and then later a cleric of Takhisis when the goddess 'recruited' him. And thus someone very powerful as he should be.
#5
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 11:29:44 I dont see any problem with wizards multi-classing in DL. After alll, what about all of theose elven multi-classed characters that have appeared like Lorac and Giltanas? How do you explain them?
#6
Dragonhelm
Sep 07, 2003 13:01:09
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
I dont see any problem with wizards multi-classing in DL. After alll, what about all of theose elven multi-classed characters that have appeared like Lorac and Giltanas? How do you explain them?

What I would stray away from is multi-classing with divine spellcaster classes that gain their power from a god. You cannot gain power from more than one god in DL.

For example, if you were a white robe mage, you would gain your power from Solinari. If you're also a cleric of Paladine, you would gain your power from Paladine. You can't gain power from both Solinari and Paladine.
#7
nevine
Sep 07, 2003 13:33:04
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
What I would stray away from is multi-classing with divine spellcaster classes that gain their power from a god. You cannot gain power from more than one god in DL.

For example, if you were a white robe mage, you would gain your power from Solinari. If you're also a cleric of Paladine, you would gain your power from Paladine. You can't gain power from both Solinari and Paladine.

I have to ask, is that somewhere in the DLCS (or AoM)? An official stance by Weis and Sov. Press? Don't get me wrong, I agree. I just like to see stuff in print or from the "horses" mouth.
#8
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 13:37:38 I believe it is stated clearly in both, but I do know that it is clearly stated in AoM
#9
Dragonhelm
Sep 07, 2003 14:25:01
Originally posted by Nevine
I have to ask, is that somewhere in the DLCS (or AoM)? An official stance by Weis and Sov. Press? Don't get me wrong, I agree. I just like to see stuff in print or from the "horses" mouth.

Read over the classes chapter of the DLCS, as well as the sidebar on Changing Focus on page 97 of the DLCS and the sidebar on Power of Faith vs. Power of the Heart on page 101. That should get you started.
#10
carteeg
Sep 08, 2003 6:48:56 Basic rule of thumb: use common sense [which isn't common BTW ;) ].

A multiclassed cleric/mage I can't see for the reasons already pointed out. You're devoting yourself to two gods, which is something you can't really do. Good, neutral, or evil: gods are greedy little bast*rds when it comes to their followers.

A multiclassed cleric/fighter or mage/fighter however, that I can see. Unless of course you're a cleric of Mishakal. Healing people immediately after hitting them with your sword can be problematic. But a rogue/cleric of Hiddukal or a fighter/cleric of Kiri-Jolith? That I can see.

I've just completed a 3rd edition run of the original 12 modules, and one of the players had a renegade fighter/wizard. However, it looks like she is going to subject herself to the test after the adventure (in-story). Is she going to give up on the fighter class? Likely no. She'll be focusing on her mage skills for a while, but I don't see anything wrong with a mage that is able to use their own dagger effectively or clock an enemy with a quarterstaff as they run by on a horse if need be.

As for Ariakus, well... in the modules I kept him as stated. A 23rd level cleric with 10 levels in fighter (used the epic book too). But just to nod to the books, I put in a back-story in which had used to have two levels in wizard. But he quit magic before taking the test and never used arcane magic again. Over time, due to never using it because he focused on his fighting abilities and then clerical spells, he forgot his studies completely in arcane magic and lost the levels in them.

It allowed me a bit of play room to get some of Ariakus' backstory in since the Tower had some old records of him. It wasn't much, but it was a nice plot thickener.
#11
zombiegleemax
Sep 09, 2003 20:55:55 I just want to thank all of those who responded, your information was very informative and helped alot.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2003 22:42:55	Gonna start a new campaign soon, first ever. using 3.5 rules and the new dlcs. I remember seeing a thread on the old boards discussing Ariakus and Multiclassed "wizards and...". I wanna showcase all the various aspects of Dl and start my campaign during the Blue Ladys War and eventually time travel to the Fifth Age, I was wondering on how such multiclassed characters work. would someone like Ariakas be considered a renegade for defying traditions of the WOHS, by becoming a fighter? Or would the WOHS turn a blind eye since he left the orders to become a warrior? The reason I ask is one Character expressed interest in the Arcane Archer PRC, which I would think wouldn't be available until sorcery is discovered. opinions/comments?
#2 Dragonhelm Sep 06, 2003 23:41:43	Ariakas' classes are something that have been in dispute for a very long time. While I think we can agree that he has fighter levels (and probably legendary tactician), there is some debate on whether his secondary class was cleric or wizard. Some sources say cleric, some say wizard. Multi-classing in DL is sort of tricky. My general rule-of-thumb is that any class that gains spellcasting abilities from a god should multi-class with other classes that further the goals and ideals of that god. For example, clerics of Kiri-Jolith could also be fighters and paladins, while clerics of Chislev could also be druids and rangers. In the case of wizards, my rule-of-thumb is that they are dedicated to the magic, and therefore can only multi-class with arcane spellcasting classes that also draw their power from the gods of magic. I think of them in terms of the paladin or monk. I could see a WoHS multiclassing with such classes as the Solamnic Auxiliary Mage and War Mage (from Age of Mortals), as well as the archmage from the DMG. The Arcane Archer, IMO, is much better suited for the sorcerer. The combat arts are not really up the alley of the WoHS, and they may frown upon this. The sorcerer has no such restrictions. The Enhance Arrow ability you get at every other level also suggests sorcery, as one of the Realms of Sorcery taught at Palin Majere's Academy of Sorcery is Enhancement. I think the big difference between wizards and sorcerers in DL is that wizards still have that traditional feel to them, while sorcerers give you options not normally available to wizards. Truly, the best of both worlds.
#3 cam_banks Sep 07, 2003 7:28:29	Ariakas was a former wizard of the Black Robes - this was established in Chronicles, despite the fact that in the modules the character was a cleric. Margaret and Tracy decided that another evil cleric villain would amount to a repeat of Verminaard and thus went instead with wizard. Whether or not Ariakas had 23 levels of wizard instead of the 23 levels of cleric he has in his module statistics is of course still up for debate, but I doubt it. It's far more likely that, defying the Orders, he took up the weapons of war and (as stated in the novel text) practiced his magic "infrequently". One assumes that due to his incredible backing and status, even this renegade behavior was left unchallenged by the Orders. My own theory is that Ariakas was one of Takhisis' early experiments in directing arcane magic to a loyal servant, predating the Knights of the Thorn. It would make sense, given who Ariakas' son was. Note that it's Ariakas' father who was the cleric. I believe this is in some sense covered by Doug Niles in Emperor of Ansalon but it's become something of a confusing canonical issue. Cheers, Cam
#4 jonesy Sep 07, 2003 7:38:35	Originally posted by Cam Banks *Note that it's Ariakas' father who was the cleric. I believe this is in some sense covered by Doug Niles in Emperor of Ansalon* but it's become something of a confusing canonical issue.** Which is of course also open to debate. I find the whole 'it was his father' explanation to be humorous. Emperor of Ansalon doesn't say anything definitive either way in regards to that theory. I resolved the issue by making Ariakas a wizard who found that the arts weren't really his thing. Thus he became a mercenary fighter in Blöde, and then later a cleric of Takhisis when the goddess 'recruited' him. And thus someone very powerful as he should be.
#5 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 11:29:44	I dont see any problem with wizards multi-classing in DL. After alll, what about all of theose elven multi-classed characters that have appeared like Lorac and Giltanas? How do you explain them?
#6 Dragonhelm Sep 07, 2003 13:01:09	Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn I dont see any problem with wizards multi-classing in DL. After alll, what about all of theose elven multi-classed characters that have appeared like Lorac and Giltanas? How do you explain them? What I would stray away from is multi-classing with divine spellcaster classes that gain their power from a god. You cannot gain power from more than one god in DL. For example, if you were a white robe mage, you would gain your power from Solinari. If you're also a cleric of Paladine, you would gain your power from Paladine. You can't gain power from both Solinari and Paladine.
#7 nevine Sep 07, 2003 13:33:04	Originally posted by Dragonhelm What I would stray away from is multi-classing with divine spellcaster classes that gain their power from a god. You cannot gain power from more than one god in DL. For example, if you were a white robe mage, you would gain your power from Solinari. If you're also a cleric of Paladine, you would gain your power from Paladine. You can't gain power from both Solinari and Paladine. I have to ask, is that somewhere in the DLCS (or AoM)? An official stance by Weis and Sov. Press? Don't get me wrong, I agree. I just like to see stuff in print or from the "horses" mouth.
#8 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 13:37:38	I believe it is stated clearly in both, but I do know that it is clearly stated in AoM
#9 Dragonhelm Sep 07, 2003 14:25:01	Originally posted by Nevine I have to ask, is that somewhere in the DLCS (or AoM)? An official stance by Weis and Sov. Press? Don't get me wrong, I agree. I just like to see stuff in print or from the "horses" mouth. Read over the classes chapter of the DLCS, as well as the sidebar on Changing Focus on page 97 of the DLCS and the sidebar on Power of Faith vs. Power of the Heart on page 101. That should get you started.
#10 carteeg Sep 08, 2003 6:48:56	Basic rule of thumb: use common sense [which isn't common BTW ;) ]. A multiclassed cleric/mage I can't see for the reasons already pointed out. You're devoting yourself to two gods, which is something you can't really do. Good, neutral, or evil: gods are greedy little bast*rds when it comes to their followers. A multiclassed cleric/fighter or mage/fighter however, that I can see. Unless of course you're a cleric of Mishakal. Healing people immediately after hitting them with your sword can be problematic. But a rogue/cleric of Hiddukal or a fighter/cleric of Kiri-Jolith? That I can see. I've just completed a 3rd edition run of the original 12 modules, and one of the players had a renegade fighter/wizard. However, it looks like she is going to subject herself to the test after the adventure (in-story). Is she going to give up on the fighter class? Likely no. She'll be focusing on her mage skills for a while, but I don't see anything wrong with a mage that is able to use their own dagger effectively or clock an enemy with a quarterstaff as they run by on a horse if need be. As for Ariakus, well... in the modules I kept him as stated. A 23rd level cleric with 10 levels in fighter (used the epic book too). But just to nod to the books, I put in a back-story in which had used to have two levels in wizard. But he quit magic before taking the test and never used arcane magic again. Over time, due to never using it because he focused on his fighting abilities and then clerical spells, he forgot his studies completely in arcane magic and lost the levels in them. It allowed me a bit of play room to get some of Ariakus' backstory in since the Tower had some old records of him. It wasn't much, but it was a nice plot thickener.
#11 zombiegleemax Sep 09, 2003 20:55:55	I just want to thank all of those who responded, your information was very informative and helped alot.