Advancing in the Solamnic Knighthood - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Advancing in the Solamnic Knighthood

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 16:58:56 Prior to the weekend's game session I sat down with one of my player's to discuss his progression through the knighthood (like many PCs he wants to become a knight of the Rose), and to make sure he knew his requirements.

He is playing a Paladin of Paladine (and yes I know what the DLCS says and it makes little sense to me since 'Dragons of a Lost Star' states that the magical elf-sword used by Laurana belonged to a PALADIN!). Admittance to the Order of the Crown was no real problem but when we got to the Order of the Sword, it got kind of strange. It looks as though a character can only progress into the Order of the Sword if they are playing a Cleric at anything under 10th Level. Have I missed something here? The +4 Will (base save) requisite is what kills most other classes and those classes (other than cleric) that gain the WILL (nobles for example)bonus do not gain divine spellcasting. The campaign is set during the chaos war so mystics are out of the current picture. It looks like multiclassing for the sake of advancing...

Perhaps it is just me but that would make for a lot of Sword-Knights who were former clerics out there. I guess it might be just me, but this doesn't sound exactly right. Has anyone else found this problem?

*I don't have my Players and DLCS in fornt of me at the moment, so things might be a little 'off' but that is the general crux of the problem...*

Arandur
#2
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 19:19:37 The KoS are a very religious order, and the requirements for the Knight of the Sword reflect this. It may be the case that you have to alter the PrCs (especially those that are directly affected by the presence or absence of the deities) to better suit the ages in which you play.
#3
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 21:08:37 Could you go into greater detail about the problem? As far as I can see, as long as the PC is fourth level, they should have no problem becoming a sword knight. Maybe if the problem is the will save is not high enough, perhaps a side-quest to attain access to a Tome of Understanding, or a few to raise the Wis. score to get the necessary requirement.
#4
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 21:21:50 I guess it just doesn't lend itself to diversity amongst the PrCs. If you decided to run and a Knight of Solamnia Party, they would all turn out very similar. I just think it would have been nice for the Knight of the Sword to be a little more 'open' to other class advancements instead of it becoming a daunting task for anyone not a cleric.

While I understand that the Knights of the Sword are a more religious branch of the Knights of Solamnia, they are still in essence, a military order and not the Church of Kiri-Jolith. I believe that the knighthood would seek out priests of Kiri-Jolith to hold their divine services and seek guidance from a cleric of Kiri-Jolith but the way the Knights of the Sword are, why would they need to? Knights of the sword are basically clerics of Kiri Jolith and this is the problem I am finding with the advancement. The Order of the Sword seems to have 'lost' it way from ToTL to the d20 DLCS. I used to see them as questing knights, upholding justice and defending the nation of Solamnia, but they seem more cleric now.

The only time I can remember a Solamnic Knight using any form of divine spell was the healing performed in 'Dragons of the Summer Flame' and that could have been reflected by the Lay Hands ability of a Paladin. So I was wondering where this conception of them being so clerical actually came from?

Arandur
#5
Dragonhelm
Sep 07, 2003 21:22:26 I think I see the problem. The class requires a Base (key word) Will Save Bonus of +4. A straight paladin doesn't get that until 12th level.

My recommendation is to get a level or two of cleric in there. At 1st level, they get a +2 Will Save, which increased to +3 at 2nd level. Perhaps the character was a cleric first, then became a paladin.

You could also lower the required Base Will Save to +2, then require the Iron Will feat (which gives a +2 to all Will Saves). That should allow your character to stay with a straight paladin, if he so desires.

Hope that helps.
#6
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 21:32:39 The Problem comes when you try to advance through the Solamnic Ranks as anything save a cleric (no mystics in the 4th Age). The two problem requirements are that you have to be able to cast divine spells and you need a base save of +4 WILL. Any class that meets the Divine spellcasting requirement (save for the cleric) doesn't recieve the anything but a 'poor' saving throw (as does the Knight of the Sword).

OK Dragonhelm nailed the problem

And that is a damned fine idea as well, +2 (base) will save and the Iron Will feat....

Thanks Trampas

Arandur
#7
Dragonhelm
Sep 07, 2003 21:36:04
Originally posted by Arandur
The only time I can remember a Solamnic Knight using any form of divine spell was the healing performed in 'Dragons of the Summer Flame' and that could have been reflected by the Lay Hands ability of a Paladin. So I was wondering where this conception of them being so clerical actually came from?

Two sources come to mind immediately:
1. Dragonlance Adventures (pages 18-19)
2. Tales of the Lance (pages 85-86)

DLA clearly shows them having the ability to cast 1st-7th level spells, as would a cleric in 1e.

Tales of the Lance also has them casting 1st-7th level spells. Additionally, there is a note below the Sword Knight table saying that they get paladin abilities.

The designers, IMO, did a great job keeping true to prior gaming products, especially DLA. Kudos on that.

What I find so interesting about DL fandom is that, when faced with questions like those about Sword Knights and spellcasting, fans tend to refer back to the novels first before they do prior gaming products. I think this is testament to just how much we value the story side of DL. Just an interesting observation.

Anyhoo, hope that helps.
#8
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 21:39:17 Maybe it's just me, but doesn't a requirement that states a +4 base will save seem a little high? Just a question, but why did they make it that way? I'm not complaining, but it makes no sense.
#9
Dragonhelm
Sep 07, 2003 21:45:02
Originally posted by Arandur
OK Dragonhelm nailed the problem

And that is a damned fine idea as well, +2 (base) will save and the Iron Will feat....

Thanks Trampas

Not a problem!

It seemed to me that this would give you the same end result, and allow for your paladin to stay single-classed.

Truth to tell, I'm a big fan of paladins in Dragonlance. I understand why they're non-standard, and I'm glad they're just that and not non-existent. Certainly, I think they're prime candidates for the Sword Knights.
#10
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 21:52:06 Indeed, they are prime candidates, but for all branches of the KoS, in my opinion. I think that they are the best for going through all the Orders, as they fit most of the qualifications anyway. I think I will use the Iron Will feat and lower the Will Save requirement. It just seems a little ridiculous to me +4 base Will Save.
#11
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 21:57:02 Yeah I agree totally

It just seemed to the player that multiclassing for the sake of achieving the requirements was plainly wrong, he couldn't see the character becoming a cleric (which leads me to the question of why do Paladins that multiclass into clerics of the same diety LOSE their Paladin abilities? Seems weird to me and I plainly disagree...). The good thing is that he would have accepted the restrictions and then gone to eighth or ninth before joining the Knights of the Crown and spending a four or so levels in these ranks before proceeding to Knight of the Sword but with the questing required (and I am a rather viscious GM at times) it would have been more like level 14 or so. Just seemed a little unfair, especially if you try to keep the levels under epic proportions and closer to the ToTL/novels.

Thanks again

Arandur
#12
Dragonhelm
Sep 07, 2003 22:04:56
Originally posted by Paladin's Wrath
Maybe it's just me, but doesn't a requirement that states a +4 base will save seem a little high? Just a question, but why did they make it that way? I'm not complaining, but it makes no sense.

There is a certain sense to it. I'll try to explain, although I need to go into some of the other design of the class.

Sword Knights prior to the Chaos War gained their power from the gods. After the Chaos War, they gained it from mysticism. Therefore, the class had to have a "+1 level of existing class" for their spells per day. This would allow for godly spellcasters and those who gain their power from mysticism as well, which allows the Sword Knight to be played in any era.

So basically, the class is designed for a divine spellcaster, either of godly or mystic persuasion.

The high Will Save is to not only encourage players to take one of those divine classes, but also to help narrow that down to clerics and mystics. Rangers and paladins do not have good will saves. That would only leave the druid, which is already ruled out due to alignment.

So, long story short, the high will save requirement is to help ensure that either a cleric or a mystic takes the Sword Knight class. Mind you, a high-enough divine spellcaster outside of the mystic or cleric could become a Sword Knight eventually, but that is a much longer and harder path.

Hope that makes sense.
#13
frojas
Sep 07, 2003 22:10:17 One way I was thinking of handling this in my game is by seperating your membership into an Order from having the PrC. So you can be a Sword Knight or Rose Knight if you pass the tests but you don't have to qualify for the PrC.

This would explain how Sword and Rose Knights existed in the early Age of Despair when there were no Divine Spellcasters on Ansalon.

FR
#14
rosisha
Sep 07, 2003 22:20:18 Wasn't membership determined by inheritence? I thought in Dragons of Winter Knight it was mentioned that only those of pure noble solamnic blood could become Rose Knights, hence a leadership position was born out of the noble class. Most Crown Knights were new families etc. I think it would have made much much much much more sense to set up the Knightly PRC's to reflect that, becuase it works in any age or time period, rather then the clerical stuff, which doesn't work in all ages, which is a shame.

Rosisha
#15
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 22:22:33 I think the adjustment of +2 WILL save and the Iron Will feat will fit quite nicely into the context of the class. It will still function in the same manner as before (since you still require a divine casting aspect). The only other thing the class may wish to specify is the divine worship, I guess it is common sense but as it reads that means I can worship Mishakal (cleric), be Lawful good and join the Knights of the Sword.

Arandur
#16
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 22:25:14 The measure was re-written by Gunthar after the War of the Lance to include non-Solamnics (Like Tanin and Sturm Majere, who may have become Rose Knights) and then also Linsha a generation after

Arandur
#17
Dragonhelm
Sep 07, 2003 22:49:16
Originally posted by frojas
One way I was thinking of handling this in my game is by seperating your membership into an Order from having the PrC. So you can be a Sword Knight or Rose Knight if you pass the tests but you don't have to qualify for the PrC.

This would explain how Sword and Rose Knights existed in the early Age of Despair when there were no Divine Spellcasters on Ansalon.

FR

Exactly.

It also works great for those who prefer to use base classes. This also works for those who prefer straight wizards to the WoHS prestige class.

Remember, rules are suggested guidelines - not required edicts. One should feel free to make changes to suit their campaign, such as the excellent paladin example above.
#18
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 23:16:03 Well in our campaign I have a Minotaur entering into the KoS although he is treated as far from a welcomed guest as you can get.

Fot lvls he has advanced with 2 lvls of cleric/ 3 lvls of Minotaur (Dragonhelm did such a good job on those lvls)/ and 1 lvl of fighter before he even entered into the Order of the Crown.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 16:58:56	Prior to the weekend's game session I sat down with one of my player's to discuss his progression through the knighthood (like many PCs he wants to become a knight of the Rose), and to make sure he knew his requirements. He is playing a Paladin of Paladine (and yes I know what the DLCS says and it makes little sense to me since 'Dragons of a Lost Star' states that the magical elf-sword used by Laurana belonged to a PALADIN!). Admittance to the Order of the Crown was no real problem but when we got to the Order of the Sword, it got kind of strange. It looks as though a character can only progress into the Order of the Sword if they are playing a Cleric at anything under 10th Level. Have I missed something here? The +4 Will (base save) requisite is what kills most other classes and those classes (other than cleric) that gain the WILL (nobles for example)bonus do not gain divine spellcasting. The campaign is set during the chaos war so mystics are out of the current picture. It looks like multiclassing for the sake of advancing... Perhaps it is just me but that would make for a lot of Sword-Knights who were former clerics out there. I guess it might be just me, but this doesn't sound exactly right. Has anyone else found this problem? I don't have my Players and DLCS in fornt of me at the moment, so things might be a little 'off' but that is the general crux of the problem... Arandur
#2 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 19:19:37	The KoS are a very religious order, and the requirements for the Knight of the Sword reflect this. It may be the case that you have to alter the PrCs (especially those that are directly affected by the presence or absence of the deities) to better suit the ages in which you play.
#3 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 21:08:37	Could you go into greater detail about the problem? As far as I can see, as long as the PC is fourth level, they should have no problem becoming a sword knight. Maybe if the problem is the will save is not high enough, perhaps a side-quest to attain access to a Tome of Understanding, or a few to raise the Wis. score to get the necessary requirement.
#4 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 21:21:50	I guess it just doesn't lend itself to diversity amongst the PrCs. If you decided to run and a Knight of Solamnia Party, they would all turn out very similar. I just think it would have been nice for the Knight of the Sword to be a little more 'open' to other class advancements instead of it becoming a daunting task for anyone not a cleric. While I understand that the Knights of the Sword are a more religious branch of the Knights of Solamnia, they are still in essence, a military order and not the Church of Kiri-Jolith. I believe that the knighthood would seek out priests of Kiri-Jolith to hold their divine services and seek guidance from a cleric of Kiri-Jolith but the way the Knights of the Sword are, why would they need to? Knights of the sword are basically clerics of Kiri Jolith and this is the problem I am finding with the advancement. The Order of the Sword seems to have 'lost' it way from ToTL to the d20 DLCS. I used to see them as questing knights, upholding justice and defending the nation of Solamnia, but they seem more cleric now. The only time I can remember a Solamnic Knight using any form of divine spell was the healing performed in 'Dragons of the Summer Flame' and that could have been reflected by the Lay Hands ability of a Paladin. So I was wondering where this conception of them being so clerical actually came from? Arandur
#5 Dragonhelm Sep 07, 2003 21:22:26	I think I see the problem. The class requires a Base (key word) Will Save Bonus of +4. A straight paladin doesn't get that until 12th level. My recommendation is to get a level or two of cleric in there. At 1st level, they get a +2 Will Save, which increased to +3 at 2nd level. Perhaps the character was a cleric first, then became a paladin. You could also lower the required Base Will Save to +2, then require the Iron Will feat (which gives a +2 to all Will Saves). That should allow your character to stay with a straight paladin, if he so desires. Hope that helps.
#6 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 21:32:39	The Problem comes when you try to advance through the Solamnic Ranks as anything save a cleric (no mystics in the 4th Age). The two problem requirements are that you have to be able to cast divine spells and you need a base save of +4 WILL. Any class that meets the Divine spellcasting requirement (save for the cleric) doesn't recieve the anything but a 'poor' saving throw (as does the Knight of the Sword). OK Dragonhelm nailed the problem And that is a damned fine idea as well, +2 (base) will save and the Iron Will feat.... Thanks Trampas Arandur
#7 Dragonhelm Sep 07, 2003 21:36:04	Originally posted by Arandur The only time I can remember a Solamnic Knight using any form of divine spell was the healing performed in 'Dragons of the Summer Flame' and that could have been reflected by the Lay Hands ability of a Paladin. So I was wondering where this conception of them being so clerical actually came from? Two sources come to mind immediately: 1. Dragonlance Adventures (pages 18-19) 2. Tales of the Lance (pages 85-86) DLA clearly shows them having the ability to cast 1st-7th level spells, as would a cleric in 1e. Tales of the Lance also has them casting 1st-7th level spells. Additionally, there is a note below the Sword Knight table saying that they get paladin abilities. The designers, IMO, did a great job keeping true to prior gaming products, especially DLA. Kudos on that. What I find so interesting about DL fandom is that, when faced with questions like those about Sword Knights and spellcasting, fans tend to refer back to the novels first before they do prior gaming products. I think this is testament to just how much we value the story side of DL. Just an interesting observation. Anyhoo, hope that helps.
#8 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 21:39:17	Maybe it's just me, but doesn't a requirement that states a +4 base will save seem a little high? Just a question, but why did they make it that way? I'm not complaining, but it makes no sense.
#9 Dragonhelm Sep 07, 2003 21:45:02	Originally posted by Arandur OK Dragonhelm nailed the problem And that is a damned fine idea as well, +2 (base) will save and the Iron Will feat.... Thanks Trampas Not a problem! It seemed to me that this would give you the same end result, and allow for your paladin to stay single-classed. Truth to tell, I'm a big fan of paladins in Dragonlance. I understand why they're non-standard, and I'm glad they're just that and not non-existent. Certainly, I think they're prime candidates for the Sword Knights.
#10 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 21:52:06	Indeed, they are prime candidates, but for all branches of the KoS, in my opinion. I think that they are the best for going through all the Orders, as they fit most of the qualifications anyway. I think I will use the Iron Will feat and lower the Will Save requirement. It just seems a little ridiculous to me +4 base Will Save.
#11 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 21:57:02	Yeah I agree totally It just seemed to the player that multiclassing for the sake of achieving the requirements was plainly wrong, he couldn't see the character becoming a cleric (which leads me to the question of why do Paladins that multiclass into clerics of the same diety LOSE their Paladin abilities? Seems weird to me and I plainly disagree...). The good thing is that he would have accepted the restrictions and then gone to eighth or ninth before joining the Knights of the Crown and spending a four or so levels in these ranks before proceeding to Knight of the Sword but with the questing required (and I am a rather viscious GM at times) it would have been more like level 14 or so. Just seemed a little unfair, especially if you try to keep the levels under epic proportions and closer to the ToTL/novels. Thanks again Arandur
#12 Dragonhelm Sep 07, 2003 22:04:56	Originally posted by Paladin's Wrath Maybe it's just me, but doesn't a requirement that states a +4 base will save seem a little high? Just a question, but why did they make it that way? I'm not complaining, but it makes no sense. There is a certain sense to it. I'll try to explain, although I need to go into some of the other design of the class. Sword Knights prior to the Chaos War gained their power from the gods. After the Chaos War, they gained it from mysticism. Therefore, the class had to have a "+1 level of existing class" for their spells per day. This would allow for godly spellcasters and those who gain their power from mysticism as well, which allows the Sword Knight to be played in any era. So basically, the class is designed for a divine spellcaster, either of godly or mystic persuasion. The high Will Save is to not only encourage players to take one of those divine classes, but also to help narrow that down to clerics and mystics. Rangers and paladins do not have good will saves. That would only leave the druid, which is already ruled out due to alignment. So, long story short, the high will save requirement is to help ensure that either a cleric or a mystic takes the Sword Knight class. Mind you, a high-enough divine spellcaster outside of the mystic or cleric could become a Sword Knight eventually, but that is a much longer and harder path. Hope that makes sense.
#13 frojas Sep 07, 2003 22:10:17	One way I was thinking of handling this in my game is by seperating your membership into an Order from having the PrC. So you can be a Sword Knight or Rose Knight if you pass the tests but you don't have to qualify for the PrC. This would explain how Sword and Rose Knights existed in the early Age of Despair when there were no Divine Spellcasters on Ansalon. FR
#14 rosisha Sep 07, 2003 22:20:18	Wasn't membership determined by inheritence? I thought in Dragons of Winter Knight it was mentioned that only those of pure noble solamnic blood could become Rose Knights, hence a leadership position was born out of the noble class. Most Crown Knights were new families etc. I think it would have made much much much much more sense to set up the Knightly PRC's to reflect that, becuase it works in any age or time period, rather then the clerical stuff, which doesn't work in all ages, which is a shame. Rosisha
#15 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 22:22:33	I think the adjustment of +2 WILL save and the Iron Will feat will fit quite nicely into the context of the class. It will still function in the same manner as before (since you still require a divine casting aspect). The only other thing the class may wish to specify is the divine worship, I guess it is common sense but as it reads that means I can worship Mishakal (cleric), be Lawful good and join the Knights of the Sword. Arandur
#16 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 22:25:14	The measure was re-written by Gunthar after the War of the Lance to include non-Solamnics (Like Tanin and Sturm Majere, who may have become Rose Knights) and then also Linsha a generation after Arandur
#17 Dragonhelm Sep 07, 2003 22:49:16	Originally posted by frojas One way I was thinking of handling this in my game is by seperating your membership into an Order from having the PrC. So you can be a Sword Knight or Rose Knight if you pass the tests but you don't have to qualify for the PrC. This would explain how Sword and Rose Knights existed in the early Age of Despair when there were no Divine Spellcasters on Ansalon. FR Exactly. It also works great for those who prefer to use base classes. This also works for those who prefer straight wizards to the WoHS prestige class. Remember, rules are suggested guidelines - not required edicts. One should feel free to make changes to suit their campaign, such as the excellent paladin example above.
#18 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 23:16:03	Well in our campaign I have a Minotaur entering into the KoS although he is treated as far from a welcomed guest as you can get. Fot lvls he has advanced with 2 lvls of cleric/ 3 lvls of Minotaur (Dragonhelm did such a good job on those lvls)/ and 1 lvl of fighter before he even entered into the Order of the Crown.