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| #1zombiegleemaxSep 07, 2003 22:27:19 | Well ladies and gents, after what feels like 48 years, I'm finally updating my Knight base class. Right now I'm thinking it might be overpowerd, but I'm making progress. I've got a table and everything! ^_^ Version .45 Alignment: Any lawful Hit Die: d10 Class Skills: Climb(Str), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Gather Information(Cha), Handle Animal(Cha), Heal(Wis), Intimidate(Cha), Jump(Str), Knowledge(Int)(Nobility, History, Tactics), Perform(Cha), Profession(Int? Can't remember key ability, PHB was stolen by a friend's dad), Ride(Dex), Sense Motive(Wis), Survival(Wis), Swim(Str) Skill points at first level: (2+Int modifier) x 4 Skill points each additional level: 2+Int modifier The Knight: Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Weapon Mastery, Ancestral Equipment 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Riding Aptitude+1 3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Ancestral Equipment 4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Weapon Mastery 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Bonus Feat 6 +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Pure Heart+2, Ancestral Equipment 7 +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 8 +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Pure Heart+4 9 +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Weapon Mastery, Ancestral Equipment 10 +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat, Pure Heart+6 11 +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Pure Heart+8, Weapon Mastery, Riding Aptitude+2, Ancestral Equipment 13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Bonus Feat, Ancestral Equipment 16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Weapon Mastery 17 +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Riding Aptitude+3 18 +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Purest of Hearts, Ancestral Equipment 19 +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 20 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Weapon Mastery, Bonus Feat Class Features: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: All simple and martial weapons, all armor, and shields(but not tower shields) Code of Chivalry: A knight must obey the code of chivalry laid down by culture or Knighthood. Weapon Mastery: At creation, a knight chooses a single weapon(or, two weapon combination. For instance, a short sword and dagger) that they will master. This is usualy some kind of sword, although it may be anything. A good example would be of Derek Crownguard, who specialized in the halberd, or Aran Tallbow, who speicalzed in the longbow. Essentially, Weapon Mastery is a list of bonus feats that only apply to their mastered weapon. If the knight chooses two-weapons, then he may get some Weapon Mastery feats twice. These do not stack. One is applied to one weapon, and the second to anopther. For instance, in the example given for a short sword and a dagger, the knight may choose Weapon Focus(Short sword) and Weapon Focus(Dagger). The Weapon Mastery feats are: Exotic Weapon Proficiency(since you must be proficient in this weapon to use it) Weapon Focus Weapon Specialization Greater Weapon Focus Greater Weapon Specialization Improved Critical Rapid Reload(if choosing a crossbow) Weapon Finesse Weapon Penetration* Ancestral Equipment: Usually, a knight inherits his gear from his ancestors. So, at first level of Ancestral Equipment, the knight chooses one piece of his main equipment(weapon, armor, or shield) to function as a masterwork weapon for him alone. It also gains a +1 enhancement bonus for each level of Ancestral Equipment. This need not be an actual +1 enhancement, but may be something the equivalent of a +1 enhancement. A knight may also choose not to unlock a special ability inside his weapon for a time, to "save" enhancements to be made later(so, if a special weapon ability is the equivalent of 3 enhancements, then they can choose not to take 3 levels of Ancestral Equipment and get that ability later). Riding Aptitude: At 2nd level, a knight recieves a +1 competence bonus to all Ride checks, melee attack roles and damage roles when mounted. This increases by an additional +1 at 7th, 12th, and 17th level. Bonus Feats: At 5th level and every five levels afterword, a knight gains a bonus feat. This must be drawn off of this list: Alertness, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Far Shot, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Leadership, Manyshot, Mounted Archery, Mounted Combat, Negotiator, Persuasive, Point-Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, Ride-By Attack, Run, Self-Sufficient, Shot on the Run, Spirited Charge, Toughness, Tower Shield Proficiency, Trample, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Whirlwind Attack. Pure Heart: At 6th level, a knight gets a +2 morale bonus to all Will saves against fear effects. This increases to +4 at level 8, +6 at level 10, and +8 at level 12. Purest of Hearts: An expansion on the Pure Heart ability, when a knight has achieved Purest of Hearts, he is immune to all fear effects. Once a person has taken a level in Knight, they may not raise a level in any class other than Fighter, Cleric, Paladin, or Noble(note: a Paladin may also take levels in Knight). Note for Kender Knights: A Kender Knight does not need to be lawful, but cannot be Chaotic. They may also trade in their Pure Heart and Purest of Hearts abilities for additional Weapon Masteries or Bonus Feats. *Weapon Penetration: This is an ability that only a knight may get. A Knight qualifies for Weapon Penetration when he has taken all the other Weapon Masteries that can be taken. A knight chooses one kind of damage resistance, and from then on, his weapon functions as a that kind of weapon for purposes of damage resistance. He may choose any kind of DR except for -/+1 or higher. Ex-Knights: Any Knight that breaks his Code of Chivalry becomes an Ex-Knight. Ex-Knights cannot gain any more class levels of Knight, and they lose their Pure Heart, Purest of Hearts, and (Superior Gear) abilities. Equipment: The standard equipment for a human knight is full-plate, a longsword, a heavy wooden shield, a lance, and a heavy war horse. Many humans use bastard swords, greatswords, and maces, also. All elves, with the exception of Dimernesti and Dargonesti commonly have the same gear, except for a light war horse, and possibly half-plate down to chainmail. Both kinds of Sea Elves ride aquatic creatures, such as dolphins, and all their equipment would likely be made out of coral(same statistics as normal gear of its kind, but with a lower Hardness). Ogre knights would ride anything that would carry their bulk, and would be more inclined toward clubs and maces then swords, as well as possibly lighter armor. Minotaur knights would usually use either a bastard sword, greatsword, or a greataxe(or a minotaur racial weapon), and maybe lighter armor. Dwarven knights would be more inclined toward axes and warhammers, and would probably ride a light warhorse(Flint's one of the only dwarves I've known of that's allergic to horses, so don't even think of mentioning it!). Gully dwarven knights would be similar, but would me more likely to ride a goat then a warpony(hmm...maybe a goat with the warbeast template...), also with lighter armor. Gnomish knights would either be about the same as dwarven ones(except riding warponies or riding dogs), invent some sort of robot-armor(like Sir Grumsh, I think it was, from Conundrum) or at least prosthetic limbs, and maybe even invent a robotic steed...Kender knights would probably not wear much heavier armor then chainmail, would use a hoopak instead of a shortsword or a lance, and would ride...anything that would carry them. I would have posted a list, but it includes most of the MM1&2, from heavy war horses to rhinoceri to gold dragons to black dragons to blink dogs to worgs...of course, many kender knights are suddenly deprived of life when they try to saddle up a shadow mastif. Centaur knights would probably have the same equipment as a human, except no steed, and maybe not very heavy armor. Baaz and Kapak draconian knights would most likely have the same equipment as humans(maybe not plate armor, though, because it may get in the way of their wings). Irda knights would usually use a bludgeoning weapon, and possibly lighter armor. Hal-elves would either use human equipment or elven equipment, it depends on their culture. Half-ogres also would either use human equipment, or ogre, depending on culture. Well, hit me with the criticism! : P |
| #2rosishaSep 07, 2003 22:59:30 | I like this but can I offer a few suggestions to replace Ansetral Equipment??? I only would wish to see this because sometimes new families rise up to become Knights, and should be reflected: First, I would make it so that from levels 1 to 3 you are actually considered a Knight, but only until you complete a Quest, you have yet to win your spurs so to speak. So... 1st Change: Stagger the Weapon Mastery thing, as it is it is WAY to powerful, giving a first level character 7 to 9 feats right off the bat. set it up like this: LEVEL - on ending Squire and becoming Knight 3) Weapon Focus (Weapon) - or - Exotic Weapon Proficiency + Weapon Focus (Exotic Weapon) 4) Weapon Finesse 5) Greater Weapon Focus 6) Weapon Specialization 7) Improved Critical 8) Greater Weapon Specialization 10) Weapon Penetration This way the Knight is building up their skills and abilities over time, after they win their Spurs. If you want you can make start this with three weapons to focus on: Sword, Dagger, Lance for example, or Longbow, shortsword, hand axe. Whateer works. 2nd Change: Rather then Ancestral Equipment you could have Family Ties. If you're family is decended from famous Knights of the Rose not only can you become one but you can get masterwork Rose armor or something like that. This way characters who have decendents from families can get equipment, but those who do not, cannot get bonus equipment. For them I would recommend money (i.e. merchents who have finally become rich enough to "buy ranks") or a weapon (the weapon that made the family famous enough to persue knight hood). 3rd Change: Make the Bonus Feat as the Fighter. 4th Change: Need some more class skills. Off the top of my head I would recommend Ancient Languages; Profession (many nobles did dabble at something or other, at the very least they need to know Estate Managment); Gather Information; Heal; Knowledge (Add Religion and Philosophy); and Survival 5th Change: I would get rid of the purity of heart thing. It looks intereting, but smacks of being a Paladin. I don't always think of knights as Paladins. I'd say you could have Iron Will be a bonus feat at like 3rd Level (become a Knight and gain Iron Will!), which would make it worth fighting for, a sort of bonus to Will as well as the Weapon Mastery stuff above. Other then that this is pretty cool. I'm going to introduce this and see what my players think. Maybe make a few changes to the Solamnic orders to make it fit. I.e., after Third level you chose a Path, and that path has unique skills and feats available to it. Rosisha |
| #3zombiegleemaxSep 07, 2003 23:21:06 | First of all is this a replacement class for the Knights of Solamnia and Neraka (you give examples of Derek Crownguard, a Rose Knight)? Personally I think it is better suited to reflect other knightly orders in the DL setting (like the Ergothian Cavaliers). Rosisha pretty much already covered what I was going to add with the following exceptions: 1) Wouldn't this class be better served as a PrC? That way the levels prior to gaining the class could equate to your training as a Squire. 2) Knights are traditionally treated as heavy cavalry because the nobility were the few who could afford to outfit themselves with heavy armour and battle-bred mounts. Perhaps more of an emphasis of mounted skills, bonus feats or abilities could represent this better (inclusion of Weapon Specialisation: Lance). 3) As Roshisha said the Pure Heart ability, smacks of both the Paladin and the Knights of Solamnia. Perhaps it could be replaced with something along the lines of Personal Coat of Arms/ Family Crest at first level and could give a bonus to dealing with folks predisposed to your cause of family and a morale bonus to all Will saves against fear effects for allies who can see the Coat of Arms and can draw strength from the Knight's presence on the battlefield. Start them at +1 and stagger them throughout the class. 4) Personally I see the fighter as the pinnacle of combat ability and the class seems to take a lot away from that. I think the Knight as a class should fall between the Noble and the Fighter class rather than a fighter replacement... Just a few ideas Arandur |
| #4zombiegleemaxSep 08, 2003 19:28:11 | Originally posted by Rosisha Well, that whole thing was worded badly. And it was a dumb name for the ability anyway. I was trying to simulate an ancestral daisho ability(from the samurai class from Oriental Adventures). What I was trying to say was that no matter what, knights have some sort of relic from their family that has latent magical abilities that only they can unlock. I didn't necessarily mean that they had to come from a family of knights.
It *IS* staggered. You get a Weapon Mastery feat at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20. Here's an example. Let's say I was trying to specialize in a bastard sword. Well, my first weapon mastery would be Exotic Weapon Prof. Next one would be Weapon Focus, then Weapon Specialization, then Greater Weapon Focus, then Greater Weapon Specialization, then Improved Critical. I would only qualify for Weapon Penetration if I did not take EWP...which I do not necessarily have to do, it'd just make more sense if I did. Do you get this now?
As I said, I meant for Ancestral Equipment to be a knockoff of Ancestral Daisho, except it would work for Weapons, Armor, or Sheilds.
Absolutly no way. If I did that, people would say that it was too much like a Fighter. Plus, all of a Fighter's bonus feats are combat based, but I do not want the Knight's to be that way. Also, I don't want them having Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc for any weapon other than their chosen one.
What's funny is that I actually did add most of those to their list, but I accidently deleted them and didn't realize it. The revised skill list includes Heal, Survival, Profession, and Gather Information. I may add Knowledge(Philoshophy), but I don't think I'll add Knowledge(Religion). I actually thought about it, but the only holy-type knights I can think of are the KoS/KoN, so I didn't include it. I might, though, if enough people think I should.
Okay. I didn't think Purity of Heart would make it very far, just that last time, people complained that Pure Hear wasn't powerful enough. Maybe it is now. I don't know. |
| #5zombiegleemaxSep 08, 2003 19:49:10 | Originally posted by Arandur This is by no means a KoS or KoN replacement. I was inspired when I learned about the Ergothian Cavaliers, really, and also the fact that there are tons of knights out there other than the Kos or Kot/N. But, I made it so that it could be the base class that an aspiring KoS or KoT/N would take. Mostly, because the only Knights in earlier editions I had to work with were Sturm, Derek, and Aran. I have the original modules for 1E, and on their character cards, it said that Sturm was a master of the greatsword, Derek the halberd, and Aran the longbow. It also says nothing about him being a Rose Knight, so I think that I'm going to take that as an invention from the books. Besides, either way, he'd have to have had a claass before getting the KoS PrC.
No.
Well, if you look at the list of bonus feats, you'll notice that it has every mounted combat realated feat I could fnid listed in the new PHB. I don't know about any other DL specific feats, as I don't yet have the DLCS. Maybe if someone could post all the new feats, and a short description of them...And besides, other than the Cavaliers, the other Knighthoods really aren't as focused on mounted combat as RL knights, although I might just give them some lance-only related feats.
...hmm...maybe...but I actually like Pure Heart, just not Purity of Heart.
This is not meant to be a Fighter replacement, but an additional class added to the list. And, the fighter is as a whole meant to be good at fighting in general, while the knight is meant to be really good at fighting with a single weapon, and good at fighting on horseback. |
| #6zombiegleemaxSep 08, 2003 23:17:03 | Hey, guys, I really need input on this. Not only is it because it's my main pet project, but because I want it finished when I play the original modules updated to 3E, which we'll be doing after we get to finish our current D&D module. |
| #7zombiegleemaxSep 09, 2003 22:58:40 | Test. Edit: Nevermind. It looked like the thread was locked. Making sure it wasn't. |
| #8josephkellSep 09, 2003 23:04:58 | What is wrong with Fighter and the Knight Prestige Classes. |
| #9cam_banksSep 10, 2003 8:19:39 | Just as a matter of interest, Dragon #310 had a selection of "specialist fighters" (along the same lines as a specialist wizard). They were fighter variants that used the same advancement chart, hit dice, base attack bonus, and bonus feat progression as standard fighters, but were tweaked in various ways to fit certain fighter specialties. Among the various options was the Knight, which had a more appropriate class skill list as well as a selection of exclusive feat-like class features which the character could take in lieu of taking a bonus feat. It was a fairly elegant solution and not loaded with dozens and dozens of bonuses and special abilities, which is something best left for prestige classes. Two of the specialist fighter classes are being used in my own Dragonlance campaign - the targeteer and the exoticist. They've needed to be slightly modified (the targeteer gets an exclusive feat which is somewhat overpowering) but since they're effectively just tailored fighters, it's working out well. Cheers, Cam |
| #10zombiegleemaxSep 11, 2003 23:06:13 | Originally posted by JosephKell Nothing is wrong witht hem. This class is not a replacement for anything, just a new way of reflecting the knights of Krynn. For the KoS, I htink the principle classes would be Fighter, Knight, Paladin, and Noble, Legion of Stee would depend on where you're going with it, Cavaliers would be Knights, and maybe, just maybe, take the Cavalier Prestige Class or Fighters witht he Cavalier PrC, and Kot/N Lilly Knights would be FIghters, Knights, or Nobles. And, of course, there are a ton of other knights out there, which would be reflected witht he FIghter, Knight, Paladin, or Noble class(Well, maybe not Noble. I don't know their stats, but I do have a general idea of the stats for a Soveriegn Stone Noble, and I'm assuming they're similar, if not the same). |