Knights of the Thorn Question - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Knights of the Thorn Question

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 23:07:08 I've noticed that some of the requirements for the Knights of the Thorn PrC can only be met by taking at least one level in a class that grants the Martial Weapon Proficiency (All) as part of its class features, such as Fighter. I could be reading this particular feat requirement wrong, but the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat can only be applied to one individual weapon at a time. Perhaps the feat requirement means that the character needs to be proficient in at least one martial weapon. Does anyone know?

Also, according to the Knight of the Thorn PrC, a Base Save Bonus of Fort +4 and Will +3 is required. A Sorcerer or Wizard can only meet this Base Save Bonus in Fortitude by level 12. Thus, a Sorcerer or Wizard could never achieve all levels of the PrC without taking on another class, such as Fighter, or by entering Epic progression. So it would seem.

However, AoM, page 127 lists the NPC Onyx (elf male Sor6/Knight of the Thorn 5). This would seem impossible according to the requirements listed for the PrC. Am I reading this wrong?
#2
banshee
Sep 07, 2003 23:13:21 I was always under the impression that they had to be Knights of the Lily, then could study to join the Knights of the Thorn. IMO, this is done simply by taking a level or two in fighter, then wizard, then Knight of the Thorn.

Banshee
#3
Dragonhelm
Sep 07, 2003 23:19:44
Originally posted by Banshee
I was always under the impression that they had to be Knights of the Lily, then could study to join the Knights of the Thorn. IMO, this is done simply by taking a level or two in fighter, then wizard, then Knight of the Thorn.

Banshee

Correct. In the 2e rules in 2nd generation, you had to be a Lily Knight prior to becoming a Thorn Knight. Thorn Knights not only cast spells, but also have a martial tradition. In 3e, this is represented through taking a couple of fighter levels (where you are known as a Squire of Lily), then taking the Thorn Knight prestige class.
#4
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 23:22:25 It seems to me that unlike the Knights of Solamnia, which have to take mandated levels in previous knighthoods to enter a new one, the Knights of Neraka can enter directly into their respective PrC's.

The character needs only a sponsor to be accepted as a "squire of the lily," complete one level in any class, take the test of Takhisis, and then is accepted into any of the Knights of Neraka PrC's
#5
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 23:23:54 Dragonhelm, how does that explain Onyx in Aom?
#6
Dragonhelm
Sep 07, 2003 23:33:55
Originally posted by Chemosh
Dragonhelm, how does that explain Onyx in Aom?

Ah, it seems that a kender has "borrowed" his fighter levels. I'm sure he'll return them, perhaps in an errata down the road. ;)
#7
cam_banks
Sep 07, 2003 23:34:50
Originally posted by Chemosh
Dragonhelm, how does that explain Onyx in Aom?

Speaking for myself, I would add 1 level of fighter to Onyx and 2 levels of fighter to Obsidian so that they're on a par CR-wise with Ebony (who has 12 total levels and is CR 12). This would also fix your problem with the base save requirement.

Cheers,
Cam
#8
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 23:35:23 That's what I always thought they had to do aswell Chemosh. I thought that was one of the distinct diffrences between the two knightly Orders was the infusion of faith and magic into the Knights of Tahkisis.

Perhaps this can be fixed in a similar way to the one suggested by Trampas to fix the Knight of the Sword in regards to Paladin advancement: Give the Knight of the Thorn the requirements of the Great Fortitude Feat(+2 FORT saves) and reduce the FORT requirement to +2. This will still reflect the severe martial training undertaken by the Knights of the Thorn and allow casters to join more directly into the Order of the Lily.

As for the Martial Weapon requirement, it seems fair enough to assume that a single martial weapon is sufficient to meet the requirements. The order is focused on Arcane magic to compliment the other two orders but they seem more militant than the average Wizard.

Just my Vision of the KNights of Tahkisis

Arandur
#9
zombiegleemax
Sep 07, 2003 23:41:21 Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone!

I'll just add a couple of Ftr levels here and there. I was secretly hoping that I might find a way around that additional Ftr level with Onyx there, but he let me down. The Dark Knights have never been reliable!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 23:07:08	I've noticed that some of the requirements for the Knights of the Thorn PrC can only be met by taking at least one level in a class that grants the Martial Weapon Proficiency (All) as part of its class features, such as Fighter. I could be reading this particular feat requirement wrong, but the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat can only be applied to one individual weapon at a time. Perhaps the feat requirement means that the character needs to be proficient in at least one martial weapon. Does anyone know? Also, according to the Knight of the Thorn PrC, a Base Save Bonus of Fort +4 and Will +3 is required. A Sorcerer or Wizard can only meet this Base Save Bonus in Fortitude by level 12. Thus, a Sorcerer or Wizard could never achieve all levels of the PrC without taking on another class, such as Fighter, or by entering Epic progression. So it would seem. However, AoM, page 127 lists the NPC Onyx (elf male Sor6/Knight of the Thorn 5). This would seem impossible according to the requirements listed for the PrC. Am I reading this wrong?
#2 banshee Sep 07, 2003 23:13:21	I was always under the impression that they had to be Knights of the Lily, then could study to join the Knights of the Thorn. IMO, this is done simply by taking a level or two in fighter, then wizard, then Knight of the Thorn. Banshee
#3 Dragonhelm Sep 07, 2003 23:19:44	Originally posted by Banshee I was always under the impression that they had to be Knights of the Lily, then could study to join the Knights of the Thorn. IMO, this is done simply by taking a level or two in fighter, then wizard, then Knight of the Thorn. Banshee Correct. In the 2e rules in 2nd generation, you had to be a Lily Knight prior to becoming a Thorn Knight. Thorn Knights not only cast spells, but also have a martial tradition. In 3e, this is represented through taking a couple of fighter levels (where you are known as a Squire of Lily), then taking the Thorn Knight prestige class.
#4 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 23:22:25	It seems to me that unlike the Knights of Solamnia, which have to take mandated levels in previous knighthoods to enter a new one, the Knights of Neraka can enter directly into their respective PrC's. The character needs only a sponsor to be accepted as a "squire of the lily," complete one level in any class, take the test of Takhisis, and then is accepted into any of the Knights of Neraka PrC's
#5 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 23:23:54	Dragonhelm, how does that explain Onyx in Aom?
#6 Dragonhelm Sep 07, 2003 23:33:55	Originally posted by Chemosh Dragonhelm, how does that explain Onyx in Aom? Ah, it seems that a kender has "borrowed" his fighter levels. I'm sure he'll return them, perhaps in an errata down the road. ;)
#7 cam_banks Sep 07, 2003 23:34:50	Originally posted by Chemosh Dragonhelm, how does that explain Onyx in Aom? Speaking for myself, I would add 1 level of fighter to Onyx and 2 levels of fighter to Obsidian so that they're on a par CR-wise with Ebony (who has 12 total levels and is CR 12). This would also fix your problem with the base save requirement. Cheers, Cam
#8 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 23:35:23	That's what I always thought they had to do aswell Chemosh. I thought that was one of the distinct diffrences between the two knightly Orders was the infusion of faith and magic into the Knights of Tahkisis. Perhaps this can be fixed in a similar way to the one suggested by Trampas to fix the Knight of the Sword in regards to Paladin advancement: Give the Knight of the Thorn the requirements of the Great Fortitude Feat(+2 FORT saves) and reduce the FORT requirement to +2. This will still reflect the severe martial training undertaken by the Knights of the Thorn and allow casters to join more directly into the Order of the Lily. As for the Martial Weapon requirement, it seems fair enough to assume that a single martial weapon is sufficient to meet the requirements. The order is focused on Arcane magic to compliment the other two orders but they seem more militant than the average Wizard. Just my Vision of the KNights of Tahkisis Arandur
#9 zombiegleemax Sep 07, 2003 23:41:21	Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone! I'll just add a couple of Ftr levels here and there. I was secretly hoping that I might find a way around that additional Ftr level with Onyx there, but he let me down. The Dark Knights have never been reliable!