Dragonlance is about roleplaying and character development. The mystic fits a role. If you try to *boost* the mystic you aim at a powerhouse class for combat, and that ISN'T the role of the mystic.
You should NEVER take the mystic class for it's combat skills, but take a mystic because it fits a role you envision for your character.
The mystic is a healer not a cleric.
You are supposed to look at a class and say: "Does it fit the setting?"
You should not look at a class and say: "It isn't as good as this and that class!"
It has been debated to death in the 3.5 bard threads, so I won't start another one here. Simply be content with the knowledge that the mystic class fits its role in the setting, and if you are unhappy with it, don't play it!
Cheers
I'm using the mystic class for the first time in a non-dragonlance setting. So far it is working out great. It's a nice fling in the face of that class in the Book of Vile Darkness that claims that using divine powers without the god's consent is evil (albeit, if I remember correctly, that class has you actually stealing the divine power from the gods and not using your own inner will).
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91572
Originally posted by Eylwn Highmoon
The mystic is perfectly fine.
Dragonlance is about roleplaying and character development. The mystic fits a role. If you try to *boost* the mystic you aim at a powerhouse class for combat, and that ISN'T the role of the mystic.
You should NEVER take the mystic class for it's combat skills, but take a mystic because it fits a role you envision for your character.
The mystic is a healer not a cleric.
You are supposed to look at a class and say: "Does it fit the setting?"
You should not look at a class and say: "It isn't as good as this and that class!"
It has been debated to death in the 3.5 bard threads, so I won't start another one here. Simply be content with the knowledge that the mystic class fits its role in the setting, and if you are unhappy with it, don't play it!
Cheers
This was exactly the response I was hoping not to get. I agree that the mystic fits what its supposed to be very well. From a fluff perspective, it's great, but what about looking at it from mechanics point of view? Is the class balanced for what it's supposed to be from a rules perspective? Sure a sorcerer doesn't have all those bonus feats that a wizard has, but it has things that a wizard doesn't. Apply this same look at the mystic and the cleric and what do you see? Does the Mystic have something that makes it "different" from the cleric besides spontaeneous casting and limited spells known? Nope. A cleric has everything the mystic has and more (2 domains, heavy armor proficiency). Does a sorcerer have something that a wizard doesn't? Yes, more weapon proficiencies. IMO a mystic doesn't need much, but it does need something.
That is the great feature about the mystic is it's diversity. From plainsfolk shamans to weather controlling ship captains to Knights of the Thorn, the mystic can fit any role a player can envision. I think the mystic class is one of the most exciting classes the DL setting has to offer...
Arandur
Mind you, I can just as easily see characters using particular components/foci. Examples could be a Mystic of war whose focus is his favored weapon, or my personal favorite tangent = Bupu the mystic, with her "dead lizard on rope" divine focus.
:D
This is completely off base and totally noncense. Someone can be an excellent rper, can love the feel of Dragonlance and can still care enough about balance and fairness to make sure every class has an oppertunity to shine. What is wrong with making sure someone can take a class for feel and ALSO play a significant role in the story once or twice just like everyone else???
So I'm BEGGING, PLEADING for all of you out there who do this to STOP. We know what you are going to say, and you don't need to say it. I'm sorry if i'm ranting, but this is driving me up a wall and I felt something needed to be said about it.
I'm not going to reply to anything to this cause i'm simply stating my opinion, love it or leave it, not looking to cause a flame war. Just stop assuming that anyone who actually wants to make sure that everything is given a fair shake is a pig flying power gamer and out to ruin the game and the "feel" of dragonlance.
Please resume your regularly schedualed posting.
Rosisha
I'm sick and tired of the "This is a ROLEplaying game, not a ROLLplaying game, so the weakness of this class matters not" argument.
Does the class being balanced with others make it less fun for the "ROLEplayers?" Nope.
Does the class being weaker than others make it more fun for the "ROLEplayers?" Nope.
Does the class being balanced with others make it more fun for "ROLLplayers?" Yes.
Does the class being weaker than others make it less fun for the "ROLLplayers?" Yes.
So in order to maximize fun for both "ROLLplayers" and "ROLEplayers," the mystic should be balanced with other classes. From what I've heard of it, I think it is. Then again, I haven't got the DLCS yet and I don't really have a stupendous understanding of game balance.
TWS out.
Personally, I'd be inclined to think that a balanced class would fall somewhere in between these two. (That's just an opinion, I haven't playtested this.)
Draco Caeruleus
Originally posted by Mucknuggle
Does the Mystic have something that makes it "different" from the cleric besides spontaeneous casting and limited spells known? Nope. A cleric has everything the mystic has and more (2 domains, heavy armor proficiency).something.
Not true!
(1) There are domains that are MYSTIC ONLY. Cleric does not have access to them. Check out both DLCS and AoM domains, and you will see them. I can think of 6 domains off the top of my head: Alteration, Channeling, Mentalism, Necromancy, Restoration & Sensitivity.
(2) There are "spell-sets" that mystic can get through these "mystic only" domains that cleric cannot.
(3) There are prestige classes that only Mystic can get into, and Cleric cannot. Check out AoM, and note the prereq's. Examples: Citadel Mystic, Legion Mystic. If you look at the class abilities, you will see that this is no small thing. Also, note Nomad Shaman's knowledge/nature prereq is easier for Mystic who has that class skill.
(4) Mystic has knowledge (nature) class skill. Minor, but it is a difference, and an important one to players that like knowing things, or qualifying for druid-esk prestige classes.
(5) Cleric's powers are granted by deities. If they do something the deity dislikes (or frustrated the DM, so to speak), they have less (or no) spells. Mystic does not suffer from this. They can do what they want without concern for lossing their spells in this fashion. Like it or not, this falls under game-mechanics.
(6) Many DMs make clerics have church responsibilities, which the Mystic wouldn't have to deal with. This is the only roleplaying-only mention I will make.
(7) Cleric's pick domains from their deity's list. This can be a cramp in your style, depending on which domains you *really* want. In fact, there many be two domains you simply can't take together, because no deity has them both.
(8) You can even have "spontaneous druidic casting" with the Mystic+NomadShaman combo. Cleric can NEVER do that.
BEYOND that, as you pointed out, the mystic CAN spontaneously cast - any spell. I'm not sure why you think that isn't a big enough deal by itself. Here are some reasons why it is different from cleric:
(a) Mystic can metamagic ANY spell you know on the fly. Cleric must prepare that ahead of time.
(b) Mystic can replace spells known as they advance, so limited spells known is less of an issue. You can replace duplicative spells with better/higher ones as you go. You could have one cure or restoration spell if you want, making the "precious spells known" issue - well, less of an issue. Also, if DM alows T&B feats Extra Slot & Extra Spell, so much the better.
(c) Mystic can cast lower level spells into higher slots on the fly. Use all your slots for Remove Fear if you feel like it. Cleric would have to prepare that ahead of time or leave slots "open" and spend tons of time filling slots during the day.
(d) Mystic can learn one or two damaging spells (say, flame strike), and simply heighten them to increase DCs, rather than more "known" higher level damaging spells. Yes, max 15d6, but very flexible. If your DM allows the T&B feats Energy Admixture & Energy Substitution, this becomes even cooler.
Mystic Misconceptions:
(1) Mystic CAN get a 2nd domain through a AoM prestige class, so I don't think you need to change the Mystic class, since there is already an official way to get this.
(2) Mystic CAN turn undead with the proper domain. This also opens up turn-replacing feats from DoF.
(3) Mystic CAN rebuke undead with the proper domain.
(4) Mystic CAN wear heavy armor without the feat and be fine (the penalties won't affect your spellcasting), or you can take the heavy armor feat if you REALLY want to be brawling. The fact that they don't get the feat (and cleric does) really isn't an unbalancing feature. Besides, if you really wanted to be a brawling character, you'd probably take Alteration Domain, and just polymorph/shapechange for each fight.
(5) Mystic has the same access to goodies as cleric. So, it is VERY easy to compensate for "limited spells known" with magic items, scrolls, wands, etc. Personally, I don't really think you need to, but you can.
As a final note, I will say that preparing spells each day can take forever (in real-time), depending on the players. This can be a huge time-suck, while everyone sits around doing waiting for spellcasters to pick spells. With the introduction of the Mystic, you can now have an entire party of spellcasters with both arcane/divine magic, without spending time preparing spells - if you want. This can often = faster game.
The class is perfectly fine as it is. It fills a roll, a different roll than cleric. If you want the fastest divine spell progression (that is, getting the next spell level the soonest), choose cleric or druid. Otherwise, you can do everything else with Mystic with the proper Domain(s), feats & prestige classes.
Originally posted by Arianna Greenleaf
Not true!
(1) There are domains that are MYSTIC ONLY. Cleric does not have access to them. Check out both DLCS and AoM domains, and you will see them. I can think of 6 domains off the top of my head: Alteration, Channeling, Mentalism, Necromancy, Restoration & Sensitivity.
(2) There are "spell-sets" that mystic can get through these "mystic only" domains that cleric cannot.
(3) There are prestige classes that only Mystic can get into, and Cleric cannot. Check out AoM, and note the prereq's. Examples: Citadel Mystic, Legion Mystic. If you look at the class abilities, you will see that this is no small thing. Also, note Nomad Shaman's knowledge/nature prereq is easier for Mystic who has that class skill.
(4) Mystic has knowledge (nature) class skill. Minor, but it is a difference, and an important one to players that like knowing things, or qualifying for druid-esk prestige classes.
(5) Cleric's powers are granted by deities. If they do something the deity dislikes (or frustrated the DM, so to speak), they have less (or no) spells. Mystic does not suffer from this. They can do what they want without concern for lossing their spells in this fashion. Like it or not, this falls under game-mechanics.
(6) Many DMs make clerics have church responsibilities, which the Mystic wouldn't have to deal with. This is the only roleplaying-only mention I will make.
BEYOND that, as you pointed out, the mystic CAN spontaneously cast - any spell. I'm not sure why you think that isn't a big enough deal by itself. Here are some reasons why it is different from cleric:
(a) Mystic can metamagic ANY spell you know on the fly. Cleric must prepare that ahead of time.
(b) Mystic can replace spells known as they advance, so limited spells known is less of an issue. You can replace duplicative spells with better/higher ones as you go. You could have one cure or restoration spell if you want, making the "precious spells known" issue - well, less of an issue. Also, if DM alows T&B feats Extra Slot & Extra Spell, so much the better.
(c) Mystic can cast lower level spells into higher slots on the fly. Use all your slots for Remove Fear if you feel like it. Cleric would have to prepare that ahead of time or leave slots "open" and spend tons of time filling slots during the day.
(d) Mystic can learn one or two damaging spells (say, flame strike), and simply heighten them to increase DCs, rather than "known" higher level damaging spells. Yes, max 15d6, but very flexible. If your DM allows the T&B feats Energy Admixture & Energy Substitution, this becomes even cooler.
Mystic Misconceptions:
(1) Mystic CAN get a 2nd domain through a AoM prestige class, so I don't think you need to change the Mystic class, since there is already an official way to get this. This also opens up turn-replacing feats from DoF.
(2) Mystic CAN turn undead with the proper domain
(3) Mystic CAN rebuke undead with the proper domain
(4) Mystic CAN wear heavy armor without the feat and be fine (the penalties won't affect your spellcasting), or you can take the heavy armor feat if you REALLY want to be brawling. The fact that they don't get the feat (and cleric does) really isn't an unbalancing feature. Besides, if you really wanted to be a brawling, you'd probably take Alteration Domain, and just polymorph/shapechange for each fight.
(5) Mystic has the same access to goodies as cleric. So, it is VERY easy to compensate for "limited spells known" with magic items, scrolls, wands, etc. Personally, I don't really think you need to, but you can.
As a final note, I will say that preparing spells each day can take forever (in real-time), depending on the players. This can be a huge time-suck, while everyone sits around doing waiting for spellcasters to pick spells. With the introduction of the Mystic, you can now have an entire party of spellcasters with both arcane/divine magic, without waisting time preparing spells - if you want.
The class is perfectly fine as it is. It fills a roll, a different roll than cleric.
I think that was the most sensible and well-thought reply I've seen in a long damn time. Good show! :D
And for the record, I'm in complete agreeance. I personally prefer any spontaneous spellcaster over a preparation spellcaster ANY and EVERY day. The thought of playing a Cleric or Wizard these days is not at all appealing.
Peace all!
Originally posted by Rooks
I think that was the most sensible and well-thought reply I've seen in a long damn time. Good show!
Thank you. I even added two more differences (7 & 8) above.
(1) There are domains that are MYSTIC ONLY. Cleric does not have access to them. Check out both DLCS and AoM domains, and you will see them. I can think of 6 domains off the top of my head: Alteration, Channeling, Mentalism, Necromancy, Restoration & Sensitivity.
True, but are these domains more powerful than Cleric domains? Do they make up for the Cleric receiving 2 domains while the Mystic has access to one? I don't think so. They simply help make the Mystic different from a flavor perspective.
(2) There are "spell-sets" that mystic can get through these "mystic only" domains that cleric cannot.
Do you mean that the Mystic has access to some spells that a Cleric does not? WEll, this may be true for level 9 spells, but a Cleric can always use a Miracle to replicate a spell below 9th level.
(3) There are prestige classes that only Mystic can get into, and Cleric cannot. Check out AoM, and note the prereq's. Examples: Citadel Mystic, Legion Mystic. If you look at the class abilities, you will see that this is no small thing. Also, note Nomad Shaman's knowledge/nature prereq is easier for Mystic who has that class skill.
Prestige classes do not determine the power of the base class so they should not be considered in a discussion of the balance of a base class.
(4) Mystic has knowledge (nature) class skill. Minor, but it is a difference, and an important one to players that like knowing things, or qualifying for druid-esk prestige classes.
Yes, but this doesn't really make the class more powerful.
(5) Cleric's powers are granted by deities. If they do something the deity dislikes (or frustrated the DM, so to speak), they have less (or no) spells. Mystic does not suffer from this. They can do what they want without concern for lossing their spells in this fashion. Like it or not, this falls under game-mechanics.
Yes, but this is VERY dependant on your group and is a ROLEplaying restriction. RPing restrictions shouldn't be used to help balance a class. Does giving some RPing restrictions to a class that gets a feat a level and full divine spell caster progression balance what it can do in combat? No. RPing restrictions don't really help balance a class.
(6) Many DMs make clerics have church responsibilities, which the Mystic wouldn't have to deal with. This is the only roleplaying-only mention I will make.
This doesn't hinder a Cleric very much and as you said, not all DMs do it.
(7) Cleric's pick domains from their deity's list. This can be a cramp in your style, depending on which domains you *really* want. In fact, there many be two domains you simply can't take together, because no deity has them both.
But they get DOUBLE the domains of a Mystic. That means double the spells and double the granted powers. This gives Clerics a power boost over the Mystic.
(8) You can even have "spontaneous druidic casting" with the Mystic+NomadShaman combo. Cleric can NEVER do that.
Druids have nothing to do with the Mystic, nor do PrCs (for this discussion).
BEYOND that, as you pointed out, the mystic CAN spontaneously cast - any spell. I'm not sure why you think that isn't a big enough deal by itself. Here are some reasons why it is different from cleric:
(a) Mystic can metamagic ANY spell you know on the fly. Cleric must prepare that ahead of time.
This is a minor advantage, and a properly min/maxed cleric has very few spells which should require meta-magic (and if you want a description of what a properly min/maxed Cleric is capable of, feel free to ask and I'll provide one for you. How does +21 to dmg with your melee weapons sound for a lvl 13 Cleric?)
(b) Mystic can replace spells known as they advance, so limited spells known is less of an issue. You can replace duplicative spells with better/higher ones as you go. You could have one cure or restoration spell if you want, making the "precious spells known" issue - well, less of an issue. Also, if DM alows T&B feats Extra Slot & Extra Spell, so much the better.
Clerics "know" all the spells on the divine list once they can cast them.
(c) Mystic can cast lower level spells into higher slots on the fly. Use all your slots for Remove Fear if you feel like it. Cleric would have to prepare that ahead of time or leave slots "open" and spend tons of time filling slots during the day.
Totally agree, but Clerics will rarely, if ever want/need to do this; same with Mystics. Proper preparation will allow you to avoid this.
(d) Mystic can learn one or two damaging spells (say, flame strike), and simply heighten them to increase DCs, rather than more "known" higher level damaging spells. Yes, max 15d6, but very flexible. If your DM allows the T&B feats Energy Admixture & Energy Substitution, this becomes even cooler.
Umm...Clerics can do that too.
Mystic Misconceptions:
(1) Mystic CAN get a 2nd domain through a AoM prestige class, so I don't think you need to change the Mystic class, since there is already an official way to get this.
Again you brought up a PrC. If I wanted to, I could make a Cleric with at least four domains.
(2) Mystic CAN turn undead with the proper domain. This also opens up turn-replacing feats from DoF.
Clerics don't need to spend a domain to do this. They can turn and have 2 nifty domain powers. Mystics don't have this ability naturally and thus must sacrifice something else in order to get it. This gives Clerics a big advantage.
(3) Mystic CAN rebuke undead with the proper domain.
See above.
(4) Mystic CAN wear heavy armor without the feat and be fine (the penalties won't affect your spellcasting), or you can take the heavy armor feat if you REALLY want to be brawling. The fact that they don't get the feat (and cleric does) really isn't an unbalancing feature. Besides, if you really wanted to be a brawling character, you'd probably take Alteration Domain, and just polymorph/shapechange for each fight.
They will not "be fine"! They will suffer penalties for not being proficient with the armor. You think that taking an armor check penalty to all attacks and anything movement related isn't a drawback?!
(5) Mystic has the same access to goodies as cleric. So, it is VERY easy to compensate for "limited spells known" with magic items, scrolls, wands, etc. Personally, I don't really think you need to, but you can.
Yep. I don't see the limited known spells as much of a drawback. There are only a couple of really useful spells on the divine list.
As a final note, I will say that preparing spells each day can take forever (in real-time), depending on the players. This can be a huge time-suck, while everyone sits around doing waiting for spellcasters to pick spells. With the introduction of the Mystic, you can now have an entire party of spellcasters with both arcane/divine magic, without spending time preparing spells - if you want. This can often = faster game.
Most people also memorize the same spells everyday. If they don't, it's only a few minor changes.
From your response it looks like I've given you the impression that I think that the Mystic class is totally underpowered. To clarify, I do not. I just think that it needs a minor boost. I think that it'll be fine with a second domain at first level.
The class is perfectly fine as it is. It fills a roll, a different roll than cleric. If you want the fastest divine spell progression (that is, getting the next spell level the soonest), choose cleric or druid. Otherwise, you can do everything else with Mystic with the proper Domain(s), feats & prestige classes. Thx for the long reply Arianna.
Making a mystic/cleric comparison to sorceror/wizard just doesn't work.
sorceror vs. wizard
greater weapon proficiency (all simple weapons)
fewer class skills
(sample 4th level)
spells per day: 6|7/4
spells known: 6|3/1
vs wizard specialist
spells per day: 5|5/4
spells known: all|8/4 (for free)
wizards: ability to leave empty slots & memorize during day
sorceror: may cast meta-magic spells, but this takes a full round action.
mystic vs. cleric
one less class skill
one less armor proficiency (no heavy armor)
very few able to turn anything (only one domain + elemental domains)
slower spell progression
(sample 4th level)
spells per day: 6|7/4
spells known: 6|4/2
vs. cleric
spells per day: 5|4/3
spells known: ALL
The wizard reigns supreme in flexibility, because he can leave a slot open and memorize any non-combat spell he needs when the situation demands it. Nothing beats working on a spell for ten minutes and making your party bored in the process *grin*
The sorceror posesses raw power but poor selection, able to cast six lightning bolts if the situation demands it while possibly being unable to cast the one fireball the wizard has memorized when a blue dragon attacks. This is balanced in that the wizard can't memorize, or know, every spell in the book.
The cleric is unable to memorize spells after their initial prayer memorization, but still knows every spell for free. So in this sense the mystic is more flexible, assuming they have the right spell at hand. Worse, clerics can already spontaneously cast all the healing spells, which will be more than a mystic can do if they design their character intelligently - a mystic has to invest a valuable slot to know how to heal someone.
Mystics can cast their domain spells all day long, their primary advantage. In essence, they can combine healing spell slots with arcane type spell slots. This is their raw power.
Unfortunately they have far more drawbacks than in the sorceror/wizard comparison.
Its not much of a balance difference, but it is there. Mystics receive no compensation for the fact very few of them will be able to turn, when every cleric can do that, and they receive fewer class benefits than in the sorceror/wizard comparison.
That said my first character will be a mystic with the fire domain. Why mystic? Because they are great characters for roleplaying!
Mucky, you obviously like the Evangelist more than the Mystic, so use that in your games. But remember you don't get the bonus domains unless you level as an Evangelist.
But the Mystic is actually quiet balanced with the Cleric.
Clerics can not only be temporarily stripped of power, but permentantly. When the world was snatched away all the wizards and clerics lost ALL their spells!
Mystics and Sorcerers never have to fear that in Dragonlance.
If you are in a game where the DM doesn't really enforce cleric alignments, then be a cleric.
Don't mess with the mystic though.
Actually, the Mystic isn't all that useful for a lot of things the Cleric does. Mystics can't increase their Mystic caster level by taking levels of Knight of the Sword or Rose (read it, it says they get their divine powers from Kiri-Jolith).
For a lot of things, Cleric is just better for. For others Mystic is better.
Remember, I'm talking about publishing a non-Dragonlance character that is a mystic.
Personally, I'm intrigued with the class. If you allow them to take divine spells from ANYWHERE, and not just from the base Cleric list, you may very well have a balanced class.
Originally posted by JosephKell
Mucky, you obviously like the Evangelist more than the Mystic, so use that in your games. But remember you don't get the bonus domains unless you level as an Evangelist.
[i]NO I MOST CERTAINLY DO NOT![/i] The Evangelist is way too powerful. SIX DOMAINS?! No thanks, I'll take my Mystic with a single extra domain.
Their abiltiy to spontaneously cast any spell then know. Think it's not much upon a min/maxed cleric?
Throw in any random game scenario. Say a cleric and mystic get kidnapped, tied up, and gagged. The cleric won't be casting any silent, stilled spells unless they were prepared way ahead of time (likely? -- probably not). But the mystic? How about a spontaneous silent, still flamestrike? Or some other spell capable of getting him out of the frying pan?
Point is, the ability to spontaneously cast any spell you know is immensely powerful, and on it's own, balances the mystic with the sorcerer. It's just a rehash of the old sorcerer vs. wizard debate. IMO, the clerics and wizards are pathetic compared to mystics and sorcerers. However, my opinion does not necessarily reflect truth. They are, however, balanced.
Peace all.
Originally posted by Rooks
Your arguments have conveniently stepped around the most powerful aspect of the mystic (you have addressed it, though you have brushed it off to be much weaker than it really is)
No I haven't. Had I done so I would be demanding that the Mystics have access to Heavy Armor Proficiency, the ability to Turn/Rebuke Undead and also have another Domain.
Point is, the ability to spontaneously cast any spell you know is immensely powerful, and on it's own, balances the mystic with the sorcerer.
I don't believe that I have stated that the Mystic is underpowered compared to a Sorcerer.
Anyway, enough of what I think the Mystic is missing. How about some more responses from the lurkers out there?
Then you could take Divine might... AND do Enlarge person...
But the thing is... MYSTICS AREN'T REALLY DIVINE! They are Divine in the way Rangers and Fey's (and how Druid's used to be)...
Rather than have WotC design a third magic type (Nature magic?) and just having it follow the same rules as Divine except not granted by Divine beings... they just called it Divine.
Because their power comes from within (much like how psionics used to be defined, I might add) their domain is sort of a reflection of what is within them!
Cleric Domains are a reflection of the deity. And If you had just one Cleric Domain many of the Gods would end up too similar.
Rehash:
Mystic's Domain = Nature of the Mystic
Cleric's Domains = Nature of the Deity
In Dragonlance (and Forgotten Realms, and how it should've been in D&D/Greyhawk) Clerics MUST have Deities.
Originally posted by JosephKell
Actually, the Mystic isn't all that useful for a lot of things the Cleric does. Mystics can't increase their Mystic caster level by taking levels of Knight of the Sword or Rose (read it, it says they get their divine powers from Kiri-Jolith).
That's true after the War of Souls, but during the first part of the Age of Mortals when mysticism was the only divine spellcasting option, many of the Knights of the Sword and Rose were mystics. The prestige classes' +1 spells per day/spells known bonuses per level apply to any divine spellcasting class, not just cleric.
I suppose you could even be a Knight of the Sword with druid levels, now that I think of it. Although the alignment issue would be a problem (there aren't any LG druids). Ranger on the other hand...
Cheers,
Cam
Please note the QUOTE of yours in my post that I was specifically repsonding to. My post was to point out the DIFFERENCES between the classes, not to say Mystic is more powerful.
To reply to your comments:
"Do you mean that the Mystic has access to some spells that a Cleric does not? WEll, this may be true for level 9 spells, but a Cleric can always use a Miracle to replicate a spell below 9th level."
Needless to say, this IS a difference. And Mircale costs XP last time I checked.
"Prestige classes do not determine the power of the base class so they should not be considered in a discussion of the balance of a base class."
Regardless, from a GAME MECHANICS standpoint, prestigle class qualification comes into play. Thus, many players consider it when choosing a base class. This IS a difference.
"Yes, but this doesn't really make the class more powerful."
Again, my post wasn't about power, it was about differences. See the original QUOTE I was orginally replying to.
"Yes, but this is VERY dependant on your group and is a ROLEplaying restriction. RPing restrictions shouldn't be used to help balance a class. Does giving some RPing restrictions to a class that gets a feat a level and full divine spell caster progression balance what it can do in combat? No. RPing restrictions don't really help balance a class."
Regardless, it IS a difference, and it WILL come into play in some DMs games. You can't simply disregard it because it doesn't come into play in your game. Many DMs use alignment and religion PRECISELY to maintain balance.
"This doesn't hinder a Cleric very much and as you said, not all DMs do it."
But, it IS a difference.
"But they get DOUBLE the domains of a Mystic. That means double the spells and double the granted powers. This gives Clerics a power boost over the Mystic."
But, it IS a difference. And you seem to be focusing on power again. Not all domains grant spells that are NOT already on the cleric list. So, I wouldn't say that they "double the spells" in all cases. Power boost is a different conversation, and it depends on what domains you take in regards to this specific quote. The Mystic can easily be more powerful in domain(s) depending on what he picks compared to Cleric. It's not a given that your cleric will always pick 2 domains that grant it uberpower.
"Druids have nothing to do with the Mystic, nor do PrCs (for this discussion)."
Of course it does. People take prestige classes. Core classes are what you take to qualify for those classes. The reality IS, that what core classes/skills you take affect what prestige classes you can get into and when. If there are MYSTIC only prestige classes, then that means that ONLY the mystic can get into them - which, in my mind, means it should be discussed as a MYSTIC ONLY benefit. It doesn't matter if it is a prestige class - if it is only available BY TAKING Mystic class, then it is a benefit ONLY to Mystic.
"(a) Mystic can metamagic ANY spell you know on the fly. Cleric must prepare that ahead of time." -- "This is a minor advantage, and a properly min/maxed cleric has very few spells which should require meta-magic."
I hardly see how this is a minor advantage, though that is about POWER again, rather than a DIFFERENCE. As someone else pointed out, a cleric who didn't know he was going to be captured, bound and gagged later that day wouldn't have likely prepared everything silent/still/eschew. Mystic can do this on the FLY. You can see that this IS a difference.
I'd love to see your example of a cleric, by the way, that you believe negates all benefit the Mystic has is this area, making it "minor advantage." The reality is, you can't make it without losing something, because if you still/silent/eschew everything, you suffer big time. And that's without considering other meta feats like heighten.
"Clerics "know" all the spells on the divine list once they can cast them."
Still, it IS a difference.
"Totally agree, but Clerics will rarely, if ever want/need to do this; same with Mystics. Proper preparation will allow you to avoid this."
(chuckle) Well, if that's how your DM plays things, that's fine. But, it doesn't change the fact that it IS a difference. Some DMs might have some scenerio where a whole tundra must be Consecrated or something, and your cleric has to wait the day - not good, if the undead army is almost here. You can't discount a benefit to the mystic because you think your cleric in your game would never benefit from it.
"Umm...Clerics can do that too."
Not on the fly, they can't. It IS a difference.
"Clerics don't need to spend a domain to do this. They can turn and have 2 nifty domain powers. Mystics don't have this ability naturally and thus must sacrifice something else in order to get it. This gives Clerics a big advantage."
Only pointed this out because people don't always realize it. It's only an advantage to a Cleric if the Mystic is trying to compete as a turn/rebuker. But since they are not the same class, that isn't the point. It is a difference.
"They will not "be fine"! They will suffer penalties for not being proficient with the armor. You think that taking an armor check penalty to all attacks and anything movement related isn't a drawback?!"
Actually, I meant that a pure spellcaster (one who doesn't care about attack penalties) will be fine in the heavy armor without the proficiency, because he won't be engaging in mundane combat and won't care about a penalty that will never apply to a roll. The point isn't whether or not it is a drawback, but rather it is only a drawback for a very specific type of character (a melee/ranged combat-ortiented mystic) - not all mystics will be that. Anyway, it IS a difference.
"From your response it looks like I've given you the impression that I think that the Mystic class is totally underpowered. To clarify, I do not. I just think that it needs a minor boost. I think that it'll be fine with a second domain at first level."
Actually, no. My impression is that you want to change this class because cleric is more powerful in other areas and in certain circumstances. If your DM runs a game where deities never withold spells, the church has no responsibilities (or virtues) for your cleric, silence and hold person are never cast at you, all your foes are undead which can be turned/rebuked, where you are never in fear of drowing in your full plate, your holy symbol will never be destroyed, where no one takes prestige classes, where you always have the 10-15 minutes to fill an empty prepared slot... etc. etc. etc.... then, sure - your cleric will outshine a Mystic in nearly all situations.
I suggest you acutally PLAY the mystic as is and see what happens. I guarantee you, OUR DM would easily highlight the class differences with simple situational/circumstance stuff. Not all games feature undead hordes. Many undead can't even be turned. Some games have foes that constantly use hold/silence spells. Some games have deities that sometimes don't grant spells. In these games, and many others, the Mystic will have its chance to shine. BECAUSE it is DIFFERENT from cleric. All the tools to render any class useless are in the DMG and MM.
If you really want to get into a power debate between mystic and cleric, I can do that - but I really have little desire to. That conversation usually is about personal preference, experiences, how magic items factor in your game, and the DM that runs your game. Our group almost banned Mystics because they thought they were TOO powerful.
As far as "balance" goes, that is an impossibility in a rulebook, but something that only happens in the hands of the DM, not in changing the classes. Even if you add your extra domain to mystic or do whatever else you want, it won't make a difference if the DM doesn't challenge the PC's strengths and weaknesses. What happens if your wizard is always flying around and never in danger of being harmed because the DM is using ground/melee/fighter foes? Do you say that wizard class must be changed and strip him of the fly spell? Of course not. The DM simply adds the occasional archer or flying creature or dispel magic-wielding spellcaster.
Yeah.
Seriously, I can't imagine forgoing raise dead or plane shift or wall of stone when I need it (which a Mystic won't be able to have JUST THESE THREE SPELLS until the very end) to be able to cast only a spell out of the vast and versatile clerical list an extra time per day. That's a diminishing return--sorcerors at the very end get 2 extra spells over a non-specialist wizard, but a mystic only gets 1 extra, and gets it later.
They way the delayed access to spells work out is that Mystics almost always have the exact same number of the cleric's highest-level spell. For example, at level 10, they get 3 fifth level spells. That's the same as a cleric. By the time the mystic catches up, the cleric has THREE highest level spell slots (depending on how your wisdom bonus works out) of that level that the Mystic won't get for the next level. And then they'll be equal for even levels, then the cleric will pull ahead on odd levels. Clerics get so many spells per level that mystic's advantage just doesn't make up for losing access to the entire spell list as once. As said, there are spells that you definitely want to cast but would be a moron for restricting yourself to casting 4 or 5 times a day. I like flame strike, but if I had to cast this spell 4 times a day while the cleric was walking around with righteous might, raise dead, plane shift, AND flame strike (and had the option of being able to prepare flame strike 4 times if that's what he really wanted), I'd shoot myself.
Again, I can't actually see giving up heavy armor proficiency, spontaneous healing, turning, an extra domain, the godliness that are extended clerical buffs into the next day (which a mystic can't keep up with because of his limited spell list), more use out of spell-completion items, getting a spell earlier, and the vast amount of versatility the clerical list provides for being able to cast a spell an extra time a day.
Seriously. A 10th-level cleric with the travel domain can prepare the godly plane shift/teleport combo, and still have two 5th-level spells left over along with being able to turn these spell slots into cures if needed. A mystic CAN'T do that without completely hamstringing himself for 3 or 4 levels and by then, the cleric has access to better spell combos. Thus, a mystic is less reliable to a party than a cleric.
I mean, it's a great class, and if the Citadel Mystic fixes these glaring flaws, I'll be happy. But I do know that, as-is, a cleric is a lot more reliable to the party than a cleric, and I play support classes. So, there you go.
I'm sticking to my conclusion that the Mystic is weak compared to a real cleric.
BTW, the 'restriction' that clerics are bound to a God is not a restriction at all if you're actually into serving some mystical, all-powerful NPC. In fact, from a roleplaying standpoint, this generates more plots and thus generates more fun.
If your DM runs a game where deities never withold spells, the church has no responsibilities (or virtues) for your cleric, silence and hold person are never cast at you, all your foes are undead which can be turned/rebuked, where you are never in fear of drowing in your full plate, your holy symbol will never be destroyed, where no one takes prestige classes, where you always have the 10-15 minutes to fill an empty prepared slot... etc. etc. etc.... then, sure - your cleric will outshine a Mystic in nearly all situations.
It's quite possible to make a cleric that doesn't use full-plate (see clerical archer builds--I'll post one soon just to show what a properly-made cleric CAN do that a Mystic CAN'T). Holy symbols are pieces of wood, and since clerics get access to an extra domain, have to worry less about BAB, and get access to the next levels of spells a level earlier (plus just generally have access to the entire list), a cleric gets more benefit out of a prestige class.
Seriously, this harkens back to the whole fighter vs. monk thing where people will argue that a monk is more useful than a fighter if you get thrown into a prison with your equipment removed. That doesn't tell us ANYTHING. Okay, you're situationally more useful, but that doesn't objectively tell us anything as Dungeons and Dragons just doesn't work like that.
Seriously, this harkens back to the whole fighter vs. monk thing where people will argue that a monk is more useful than a fighter if you get thrown into a prison with your equipment removed. That doesn't tell us ANYTHING.
Quite true. And the problem and enlightenment of your arguement is that it effects both arguements. in the right situation, the mystic will prove itself better. in a different situation the cleric will prove itself better. Ultimately by saying that situation will effect the power of the mystic vs the cleric, one CAN'T say that the mystic is better than the cleric, nor the cleric is better than the mystic.
Shrug. I think it's fine. The mystic can handle itself in a fight. On a role-playing level, however, I would like mystics to have more access to spells. In SAGA there was Animism. That reeks of Druid, and using mysticism for druids, who haven't turned to Chislev, Habbakuk or Zeboim.
In that way, i see opening druid spells as ones available for mystic. but that's a role-playing reason, not a power-balance reason.
Granak Red-Silver
Sivak
Originally posted by Granakrs
Shrug. I think it's fine. The mystic can handle itself in a fight. On a role-playing level, however, I would like mystics to have more access to spells. In SAGA there was Animism. That reeks of Druid, and using mysticism for druids, who haven't turned to Chislev, Habbakuk or Zeboim.
In that way, i see opening druid spells as ones available for mystic. but that's a role-playing reason, not a power-balance reason.
Check out the Nomad Shaman prestige class in Age of Mortals. Once the PrC is taken, Mystics who take this class may learn spells from the druid spell list, rather than the cleric.
Mortals are simple (when compared to Gods), so while a Deity may have 3 to 5 domains, Mortals have just one. Clerics can only channel 2 of their deity's domains. Mystics, because they are mortals, only have one domain within them, so just one domain.
Do you think that giving a Mystic access to a second domain at first level would unbalance the character?
Originally posted by Lago AM3P
Holy symbols are pieces of wood...
Well, not quite. In the Dragonlance setting, they're medallions of faith, which are specific items and not something you pick up at a local religious supplies store.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Bedford
My main complaint with Mystics is that, were I to publish a character in another book, I could not make them a mystic, due to Mystic being only available in Dragonlance.
Not so! The Shugenja of Oriental Adventures are very much like Mystics (but with an emphasis on elemental magic).
Besides that, yes, you would have to create your Mystic in Dragonlance, but if that Mystic discovered planar travel, then you're set! Because the mystic's magic spring from within herself, she can take her power wherever she goes! What's to say you couldn't start a school of Mysticism on another world?
Originally posted by Mucknuggle
Arianna, I do not agree that one should consider prestige classes when discussing the power of base classes. Prestige classes just further complicate matters as you have to then consider the power level of the prestige classes relative to each other and then how they affect the power of the character. When comparing base classes prestige classes should be left out for the simple reason that they are not base classes. Let's just agree to disagree on this subject as it could easily have a thread of its own.
Do you think that giving a Mystic access to a second domain at first level would unbalance the character?
Interesting. So, what are your thoughts on Weapon Specialization path of Feats? Do you also ignore that when you look at Fighter class? Becuase a "feat" is not a "core class?" I honestly don't understand how you can ignore features of the game (feats, prestige classes, whatever), that are available ONLY to one class. I mean... it is a benefit ONLY to this ONE class. But, I agree to disagree with you on this.
As I mentioned, I believe balance is in the hands of the DM. You can introduce the most min/max "legally possible" combo into our game, and the DM can easily keep it balanced with the other characters. All the tools for this are in DMG & MM.
My point is that I believe you are looking to make changes in the wrong places. Don't change the class, but rather have the DM be more involved in highlighting the differences between Clerics and Mystics. Just try the rules and classes as they are first. I think it is flawed to add something to Mystic simply because "cleric has an advantage in this area." Over the course of 1st through 20th levels, a pure Mystic (unaltered) will not be underpowered. It will shine in some adventures, and suffer in others - just like every other class.
Originally posted by ferratus
After much consideration, and consultation from my rules lawyer, I will be giving the mystic a metamagic feat at 5th, 10th, and 15th level, and gain the outsider type as per monk at 20th level.
and the justification for said bonuses (especially the outsider type)??? sorcerors don't get either, and they're jsut the arcane version. Why do you and your rules lawyer believe that they should become an outsider at level 20? Not flaming, just curious.
As a side note, i think the mystic is just fine as is. They are quite powerful if done right, just like a sorcerer. And in my games, the mystic's staying as is.
Originally posted by ferratus
After much consideration, and consultation from my rules lawyer, I will be giving the mystic a metamagic feat at 5th, 10th, and 15th level, and gain the outsider type as per monk at 20th level.
:OMG! I'm really curious as to why you decided to do this. Would you mind sharing the details of your decision?
As well, I figured that the metamagic feat compensates for having to take a heavy armour proficiency (if you need it), along with the limited spells that a mystic has. Unlike the sorcerer, there are not many spells in the cleric spell list (other than the healing spells) that you need to cast over and over again. They are much more of a utility nature, removing curses, restoring lost levels, gaining your alignment back etc. Things that you'll need once to recuperate from an adventure, but not spells you'll need to constantly know.
Metamagic feats are a means of getting the most out of the few spells that you do want to cast over and over.
The outsider type doesn't really change much (I beleive they both use the d8 hit dice) except to make the wearer immune to magical effects that specifically target humans, such as charm person or bane weapons. Not too powerful an ability for a 20th level Mystic to have, especially since I'm sure there are spells that give you the outsider type for a limited duration anyway.
Finally, by staggering the abilities at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th levels, you are given an excuse to play a mystic, rather than just cherry picking it to belong to a divine prestige class.
For the Knight of the Rose? You do realize that it says in both the Knight of the Sword and Rose that they get their divine powers from Kiri-Jolith. So that means they MUST be Clerics.
There are other divine prestige classes as well, outside of dragonlance rules.
Originally posted by JosephKell
What divine PrC are you cherry picking?
For the Knight of the Rose? You do realize that it says in both the Knight of the Sword and Rose that they get their divine powers from Kiri-Jolith. So that means they MUST be Clerics.
Yet the requirements say that you have to cast divine spells. No specification if preparation is required or not.
I imagine some flavor text was put in there that doesn't quite mesh with the rules. Since Sword Knights used mysticism in the early Age of Mortals, then it has to be open to either clerical or mystic magic.
Sorry to step into the middle of your personal dispute.
Do you realize the two of you just observe different styles of dming? I don't think you're really arguing about the Mystic.
Style 1
One style has the dm do the balancing work, constantly in a juggling act of making in-game rulings to balance with the party and customizing encounters to the party's strengths and weaknesses.
Style 2
The other style dm just opens the book, and plays straight from it 'by the rules' not adjusting for the party's performance, nor feeling a need to. Sometimes this is more challenging for the players.
I've run both styles, and played in both styles, and they are *both* fun, and very different. I've also seen arguments erupt just like yours when, really, both styles work.
If you follow style 1 the official rules balance doesn't matter much, because you're constantly ruling.
If you follow style 2, its helpful to have rules set at the beginning because you won't deviate from them the whole campaign. Anyone disadvantaged at character creation remains disadvantaged the rest of the campaign, which isn't very much fun for said individual (I've been there).
I hope my comments made some sense.
It will shine in some adventures, and suffer in others - just like every other class.
The same can be said for an adept NPC class compared to, say, a real wizard. Heck, the NPC class can CAST SOME CURES, while THE WIZARD CAN'T! Hoorah!
But that does not mean that if a PC wanted to play it, it would need some serious retooling.
I mean, a cleric gets SPONTANEOUS HEALING (or inflict spells, which sucks). A mystic doesn't get that without gimping him/herself for an entire level, as applying metamagic feats to cure spells is generally crap. Goodness help you if you wanted to actually play a necromancer--a mystic HAS to take the necromancy domain just to turn, which is a net loss of two domains compared to his necromancer clerics. Not to mention that your necromancer buddy isn't kicked in the tuckus by necromancy magic, since he can select the various create undead spells at any time and then switch over to REAL spells once he has his undead army. A mystic either resignates himself to not having level-appropriate spells in combat and letting his minions do the work or just going without necromancy, which sucks.
Originally posted by Coyote Skyheart
Arianna Greenleaf, Mucknuggle
Do you realize the two of you just observe different styles of dming? I don't think you're really arguing about the Mystic.
Hm... it sounds like you didn't read my lengthy intial post in this thread, where I barely touched on DM style. It was specifically about game mechanics and comparing the core classes, and I went into great detail.
Originally posted by Coyote Skyheart
Arianna Greenleaf, Mucknuggle
Sorry to step into the middle of your personal dispute.
Do you realize the two of you just observe different styles of dming? I don't think you're really arguing about the Mystic.
Umm, 2 things.
1) We are not having a "personal dispute"; we are having a friendly discussion. There are no hard feelings between us (I hope...).
2) Neither of us have used DMing style as the basis for any of our arguments. As Arianna just said, we are debating over the mechanics of the class.
I don't intend this to be rude, just to clarify some things.
Mystics don't face this, but also their single domain represents what is inside of them.
If you don't like the Mystic as is. CHANGE IT. Just don't come online expecting people to praise you for messing with a game that other people like already.
If you don't like the Mystic, be a Cleric or Druid. Just like how if you are downed by the delayed magic progression of a Sorcerer, be a Wizard.
Originally posted by JosephKell
The Gods of Krynn don't just dish out Divine magic like in Greyhawk, they keep an eye on EACH Cleric. So if a Cleric acts wrong, they are penilized.
Mystics don't face this, but also their single domain represents what is inside of them.
If you don't like the Mystic as is. CHANGE IT. Just don't come online expecting people to praise you for messing with a game that other people like already.
If you don't like the Mystic, be a Cleric or Druid. Just like how if you are downed by the delayed magic progression of a Sorcerer, be a Wizard.
Jo, a couple of things:
Why are you posting the same thing about clerics getting their magic from the gods over and over? We all read it the first time.
Secondly, why do you feel the need to attack me like that? I'm not starting a "Mystics are Underpowered Foundation" or anything, I'm having a discussion. I am not "messing with a game that other people like already", nor am I looking for praise. Next time you want to contribute to the discussion, plz do it without attempting to insult people.
The CLCS states that "the experience of mysticism can be merely a pale shadow of the exultation of channeling the divine." Perhaps, the Mystic is slightly underpowered (in reference to having only a single domain instead of two) to reflect this experience?
Though not very important to this it should be noted that in dragonlance clerics must have there medailion of faith to cast any spells above 2ed level. sure it's hard to get it off of a cleric but once you do he is severly weaked.
No more than, say, a wizard without his spellbook, a fighter without her magic weapon, a bard without his instrument, a druid without her sprig of holly, etc.