Originally posted by SweetMeats
The demon prince Demogorgon appears with Tasslehoff in one the stories from the Tales: Magic of Krynn novel.
Ahhh. . . but I don't really trust anything not written by the main authors, even those edited by them.
Basically, my whole reason for asking is that I have player that wants to play a half-fiend and I told him I would get back to him.
Arandur
Originally posted by Kalanth
Ahhh. . . but I don't really trust anything not written by the main authors, even those edited by them.
Basically, my whole reason for asking is that I have player that wants to play a half-fiend and I told him I would get back to him.
Well during the battle between Fistandantilus and Raistlin, a fiend is summoned, and then the two tear it apart, arguing for control over it.
And, yes, Tasslehoff is referred to as seeing Demogorgon.
In addition, there are multiple references to Draconians being created by corrupting the egg of a metalic dragon, and letting abishai inhabit the bodies....and abishai are definitely a type of baatezu....
Banshee
Matthew L. Martin
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
...I don’t think Fiends have a place in Dragonlance. Celestials however can exist as agents of the Gods of Light. Someone suggested a while ago that there is no reason why Tana’ri and Baatezu can co-exist in Takhisis’s Abyss. I don’t buy that. If you like you can use that, though. I personally left the Abyss and the Nine Hells alone in my campaign...
The laws of Krynn dictate that this cannot be. Dragonlance is focused on the balance between good and evil, and without demons to counter the presence of celestials, their is no balance.
Christopher
Originally posted by Faeryl Zauvirr
The laws of Krynn dictate that this cannot be. Dragonlance is focused on the balance between good and evil, and without demons to counter the presence of celestials, their is no balance.
True. I didn’t think of it that way. Although I don’t view Celestials meddling in the affairs of mortals in Krynn, I think they would fill the role of heralds for the Gods. Mathew fiends also played a major role in the Defenders of Magic Trilogy. Where the abishai you mention minions of the Dark Queen in the novel? Abishai where her servants in 2nd Edition Dragonlance. Serena I might just go with your approach since it would be a different pace for once. It'll be more work in my campaign since I’ve been running it for four years and my players have already travel the various Planes. And to be honest I’m very attach to my old Planescape products.
Originally posted by Stormprince
Yes, there are Fiends and Celestials in Dragonlance
Christopher
Since this is the shortest answer, it is the best to respond to. This completly answers my question.
Thank you everyone, I have decided to allow the player to be a half-fiend because of the convincing arguements presented about the exsistance of fiends and celestials.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Oh yeah, and while Dragonlance is about the Balance, it sometimes just goes flying out the door. The early Knights of Takhisis where immensely poweful, Thorn Knights go more power from the Moons than the High Sorcery mages.. huh? And the Dragon Overlords... well.. undeputed rulers for a long time.
There is a misconception about Balance and Krynn.
The Balance on Krynn does not mean that there must be a perfect "balance" between Good and Evil at all times. It means that the 'pendulum' must swing between the two freely. Sometimes, it swings too far one way and in response, the Gods of Neutrality must intervene. It is their job to make sure that the pendulum moves freely and does not get stuck anywhere...
Too much Order = Greygem.
Too much Good = Cataclysm.
Too much Evil = War of the Lance.
Too much "Chaos" = The Chaos War (when they determined that the best way to fight Chaos was by uniting under the most utterly fanatical/rigid organization... one forged by the Dark Queen, who let's face it... relishes War more than either of the War gods ;) )
But, too much "Balance" = Stagnation.
Christopher
Kind of an odd piece of planar geography, but there you go
Banshee
I do believe there are other references to 'demons' from the Abyss. Now, I believe the term 'demons' on Krynn is a general term which applies to any creature native to the Abyss. It doesn't neccessarily refer to Tanar'ri. Any lower plane creature could work from that location. It's a DM's free will to set this up how they want.
My guess in regards to the Celestials is that they do exist, but do to their laws are probably very careful in not revealing who they are so they could work more covertly.
The neutral higher plane likely has their own version of Aasimon/Demons, but they would likely never leave their homes in order to let Krynn run unhindered. Just a guess.
As for the Takhisis in Planescape issue; our campaign got a little silly with it. This campaign took place between the Chaos War and the War of Souls, and so it answered (for us) what the gods were doing after they left Krynn (or lost it as we found out later).
Bahamut we defined as an avatar of Paladine that was ascended to full godhood. After that the two turned their fight against Tiamat (who lived in Baator) to stop whatever evil things she was doing. However, Paladine messed up. He thought that Tiamat was Takhisis, but she wasn't. She was the old dead god, resurrected into a weaker form from the slow dripping blood of a Titan (a high god I mean). Tiamat discovered that due to her taking the 5-headed dragon form, many of Takhisis' off-Krynn worshippers thought she was her and began to receive the worship. When she found out that Paladine was the enemy of Takhisis, she was all the happier to keep the guise up, continue the war, and from that build up even more worshippers. Meanwhile Takhisis was nowhere to be seen and allowed to do her work without divine problems.
Since so much in regards to the Planescape/Krynn cross-overs seems to conflict, it leaves a good amount of room to play around in.
Rule #1: Have fun.
Rule #2: If any other rule interferes with Rule #1, see Rule #1.
He had been present when the mage summoned creatures from the planes above and below to do his bidding. . .
(This is from the last paragraph on the bottom of page 90 of the collector's edition of the Dragonlance Legends. Its close to the start of chapter 8 of book 1 for those who have different editions of the books.)
"Creatures from the planes above and below" clearly implies fiends and celestials.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Banshee you’re the first Dragonlance fan in this board that has admitted Takhisis lived in Baator in 2nd Edition Dragonlance. Thank you. There was nothing wrong with the old cosmology. Some people have this severe aversion to Planescape. In standing with the new 3rd Edition theory that all worlds are apart I understand why a new Cosmology was drafted for Krynn. But I hate it when people turn a blind eye to the old ways as if they never where.
Most people will readily agree that she lived in Baator under 2nd edition's framework (since she's Lawful Evil). However, most people won't agree to that now, just as they didn't agree to it in 1st edition AD&D.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Banshee you’re the first Dragonlance fan in this board that has admitted Takhisis lived in Baator in 2nd Edition Dragonlance. Thank you. There was nothing wrong with the old cosmology. Some people have this severe aversion to Planescape. In standing with the new 3rd Edition theory that all worlds are apart I understand why a new Cosmology was drafted for Krynn. But I hate it when people turn a blind eye to the old ways as if they never where.
Baron,
We don't turn a blind eye, but in the end, it all boils down to having to pick and choose what we feel is best for Dragonlance.
If the gods lived in the Outer Planes with the infintesimal other gods from every other world that all seem to live in the same bloody place, then why are Krynn's 21 gods the only ones that come to Krynn? And why should they care when Krynn 'disappears' when they could just find another world?
In 2nd edition, Krynn's "old ways" were ignored (a blind eye purposefully turned towards them) so that Krynn could become more like the other game worlds (making it easier for 'cross-overs' and the like). Now, we have to cut the chaffe from the wheat and select what we feel is the right way.
Creating a new cosmology (which is exactly what Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms did!) helps to define the world's mythology as being unique and not derivative.
It's like saying, "Oh! You know Aphrodite and Thor must have been dating, since they both live on the same street.... what, you didn't know that Olympus was across the street from Valhalla?!?"
Even human mythologies cannot agree upon a single cosmological design...
In all the great infinities of the outer planes, just like the universe, the cosmologies are separate from one another...and even if some realms are called similar names, the Abyss of Krynn is different from the Abyss of Greyhawk and is different from Abyss the movie...
I loved Planescape. I spearheaded the redesign of the cosmology to fit Krynn's back history and feel instead of trying to make Dragonlance follow the same cosmological wheel as Greyhawk...just remember, the Ethereal & Astral Planes connect everything together, so if you want to have the players deal with Mechanus or take a jaunt to the Demonweb Pits, it's your game, go for it
Christopher
I think I will be incorperating the Fiend Folio into my campaign. I am going to have some much darker things happen on Dragonlance, and that book would be perfect.
And for the information of those that posted. The player did in fact create a half-fiend. Here is some of his info:
Half-Fiend Sivak Draconian
Ranger Lvl 1