Draconian CR. What the hell! - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Draconian CR. What the hell!

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Sep 09, 2003 22:30:34 [Search disclaimer] I did a search on Kapaks and didn't really find anything related to this. Although we all know that the search function is a stuborn old mule. ;)

Is it just me or are the draconian CR's a little off? The most notable for me is the Kapak. I'd put it at about CR2 rather than 4. It seems on par with a bugbear to me. Baaz could probably stay at 2, although 1 wouldn't make them overly uber IMO. The spellcasters are fine. If anything both Auraks and Bozaks could probably gain +1 to CR each. Lastly, sivaks seem OK at 6, but 5 would seem to me to be in line with their abilities (I'd rather fight a Sivak than a troll afterall).

Did anyone else find this a little strange? That being said, I found the ECL for draconian characters to be much fairer than most other WotC material.
#2
dragontooth
Sep 09, 2003 22:33:48 I think why their CR are is higher is due to their Spell Resistance.
#3
zombiegleemax
Sep 09, 2003 23:16:59 also, kapaks are pretty damn deadly, with innate sneak attack abilities combined with their venomous bite.... yikes. you also have to figure in that a bugbear (or troll or whatever) can't hurt you when it's dead. most draconians (with the exception of Baaz, and even then in some cases...) can still kill you after they die.
#4
zombiegleemax
Sep 10, 2003 4:53:11
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
also, kapaks are pretty damn deadly, with innate sneak attack abilities combined with their venomous bite.... yikes. you also have to figure in that a bugbear (or troll or whatever) can't hurt you when it's dead. most draconians (with the exception of Baaz, and even then in some cases...) can still kill you after they die.

Yeah, but CR4! The kapak acid pool thing is mearly annoying, rather than deadly (you're not likely to be in their square when they die). I don't think sneak attack is worth ECL, and the poison is bad, but not nasty.

You're right that Trolls can't kill you when they die, but getting them to die is the tricky thing.

The rest aren't so bad, but Kapaks really need to be CR2 (you could maybe convince me that they're a 3, if I was drunk ;)). At CR4 I just couldn't bear to use them, it seems like experience for nothing to me.
#5
kalanth
Sep 10, 2003 7:42:09 You don't have to keep it that way, you know. Just modify the challenge rating as you see fit. I use the draconians as more cunning and battle savey and such and so I can justify the CR, especially in the sense that most can kill when they die. I already lost a character to the poison of a Kapak, whom performed a Coupe De Gra (sp?) on the character when his 11 Dex plummited to -1.
#6
Granakrs
Sep 10, 2003 12:08:54 Actually, I think the CR4 is a reasonable number. The kapak's poison saliva is the largest feature that calls for a CR4. the licked blade (which might also include throwing knives and such) can be devastating to a party. That's ranged paralysis.

Also, given the right circumstances, the kapak can make a multiattack of claw/claw/bite (inflicting potential paralysis). or you can do the standard kapak attack of a poisoned sword, and a poisoned bite (i.e. two chances of making someone paralysed per round).

If you feel your CR2 equivalent group can withstand a DC12 Fort Save, go for it.
#7
zombiegleemax
Sep 11, 2003 2:46:55
Originally posted by Granakrs
Actually, I think the CR4 is a reasonable number. The kapak's poison saliva is the largest feature that calls for a CR4. the licked blade (which might also include throwing knives and such) can be devastating to a party. That's ranged paralysis.

Also, given the right circumstances, the kapak can make a multiattack of claw/claw/bite (inflicting potential paralysis). or you can do the standard kapak attack of a poisoned sword, and a poisoned bite (i.e. two chances of making someone paralysed per round).

If you feel your CR2 equivalent group can withstand a DC12 Fort Save, go for it.

The paralysis is secondary poison damage, so unless you're fighting prolonged battles (10+ rounds) it is rarely an issue (heal check DC15 after the battle completely negates the chance of paralysis). The dex damage is the relevant thing for any specific encounter and to be honest, it's not affecting much past AC until your dex becomes 0.

Again this is purely my opinion, but the Kapak is a CR1 monster with some minor abilities (poison, SR11, death throw obstacle) that push it into CR2 territory.

Back to a comparison, a bugbear which is CR2 has the same HP, better stats, more HD, is smarter and is a much more deadly combatant than a kapak. Sure it can't poison or resist low-level magic or desolve into an acid obstacle (which is bad for both friend and foe), but at the end of the day my fighter would probably rather fight the kapak (which needs to hit before it can poison) than a bugbear, that hits for a lot more damage and is more likely to hit than the Draconian.

Really, according to the CR formula a level 2 party should have a very tough time with a kapak, but even if it has the element of surprise and wins initiative, it's not likely to live out the first round.
#8
Granakrs
Sep 11, 2003 3:44:42 Well, my tactic has always been allowing Kapak as bowmen in any military engagement. As i said the bladed throwing knives, for the conservatve Kapak who's willing to strike from a distance, uses his run feat liberally, and lets the poison work, can come back later. :-) Since Ranged attacks are Dex based, in a long ranged conflict, the draconian will win out.

We're also talking about a potential 1d6 Dex drop with each successful hit. At the least, the victim is minimally hurt, makes his save, and is still capable. At the most, a 6 dex drop is a -3 modifier to nearly everything dex, including Reflex saves, and the all important initiative roll, not just AC.

Granak Red-Silver
Sivak
#9
zombiegleemax
Sep 11, 2003 23:15:16
Originally posted by Granakrs
Well, my tactic has always been allowing Kapak as bowmen in any military engagement. As i said the bladed throwing knives, for the conservatve Kapak who's willing to strike from a distance, uses his run feat liberally, and lets the poison work, can come back later. :-) Since Ranged attacks are Dex based, in a long ranged conflict, the draconian will win out.

Hmmm. I'll have to try that. It may work but I just think that the limitation of applying the venom as a full-round action, using it within 3 rounds and then fleeing for 10 rounds would be pretty hard to pull off. The whole time the party will be peppering the Draconian with arrows and he only has 17 hp.

I guess if it works I'll keep it at 4, but more than likely they'll end up 2 for any campaign I run.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 09, 2003 22:30:34	[Search disclaimer] I did a search on Kapaks and didn't really find anything related to this. Although we all know that the search function is a stuborn old mule. ;) Is it just me or are the draconian CR's a little off? The most notable for me is the Kapak. I'd put it at about CR2 rather than 4. It seems on par with a bugbear to me. Baaz could probably stay at 2, although 1 wouldn't make them overly uber IMO. The spellcasters are fine. If anything both Auraks and Bozaks could probably gain +1 to CR each. Lastly, sivaks seem OK at 6, but 5 would seem to me to be in line with their abilities (I'd rather fight a Sivak than a troll afterall). Did anyone else find this a little strange? That being said, I found the ECL for draconian characters to be much fairer than most other WotC material.
#2 dragontooth Sep 09, 2003 22:33:48	I think why their CR are is higher is due to their Spell Resistance.
#3 zombiegleemax Sep 09, 2003 23:16:59	also, kapaks are pretty damn deadly, with innate sneak attack abilities combined with their venomous bite.... yikes. you also have to figure in that a bugbear (or troll or whatever) can't hurt you when it's dead. most draconians (with the exception of Baaz, and even then in some cases...) can still kill you after they die.
#4 zombiegleemax Sep 10, 2003 4:53:11	Originally posted by Magus_Extreme also, kapaks are pretty damn deadly, with innate sneak attack abilities combined with their venomous bite.... yikes. you also have to figure in that a bugbear (or troll or whatever) can't hurt you when it's dead. most draconians (with the exception of Baaz, and even then in some cases...) can still kill you after they die. Yeah, but CR4! The kapak acid pool thing is mearly annoying, rather than deadly (you're not likely to be in their square when they die). I don't think sneak attack is worth ECL, and the poison is bad, but not nasty. You're right that Trolls can't kill you when they die, but getting them to die is the tricky thing. The rest aren't so bad, but Kapaks really need to be CR2 (you could maybe convince me that they're a 3, if I was drunk ;)). At CR4 I just couldn't bear to use them, it seems like experience for nothing to me.
#5 kalanth Sep 10, 2003 7:42:09	You don't have to keep it that way, you know. Just modify the challenge rating as you see fit. I use the draconians as more cunning and battle savey and such and so I can justify the CR, especially in the sense that most can kill when they die. I already lost a character to the poison of a Kapak, whom performed a Coupe De Gra (sp?) on the character when his 11 Dex plummited to -1.
#6 Granakrs Sep 10, 2003 12:08:54	Actually, I think the CR4 is a reasonable number. The kapak's poison saliva is the largest feature that calls for a CR4. the licked blade (which might also include throwing knives and such) can be devastating to a party. That's ranged paralysis. Also, given the right circumstances, the kapak can make a multiattack of claw/claw/bite (inflicting potential paralysis). or you can do the standard kapak attack of a poisoned sword, and a poisoned bite (i.e. two chances of making someone paralysed per round). If you feel your CR2 equivalent group can withstand a DC12 Fort Save, go for it.
#7 zombiegleemax Sep 11, 2003 2:46:55	Originally posted by Granakrs Actually, I think the CR4 is a reasonable number. The kapak's poison saliva is the largest feature that calls for a CR4. the licked blade (which might also include throwing knives and such) can be devastating to a party. That's ranged paralysis. Also, given the right circumstances, the kapak can make a multiattack of claw/claw/bite (inflicting potential paralysis). or you can do the standard kapak attack of a poisoned sword, and a poisoned bite (i.e. two chances of making someone paralysed per round). If you feel your CR2 equivalent group can withstand a DC12 Fort Save, go for it. The paralysis is secondary poison damage, so unless you're fighting prolonged battles (10+ rounds) it is rarely an issue (heal check DC15 after the battle completely negates the chance of paralysis). The dex damage is the relevant thing for any specific encounter and to be honest, it's not affecting much past AC until your dex becomes 0. Again this is purely my opinion, but the Kapak is a CR1 monster with some minor abilities (poison, SR11, death throw obstacle) that push it into CR2 territory. Back to a comparison, a bugbear which is CR2 has the same HP, better stats, more HD, is smarter and is a much more deadly combatant than a kapak. Sure it can't poison or resist low-level magic or desolve into an acid obstacle (which is bad for both friend and foe), but at the end of the day my fighter would probably rather fight the kapak (which needs to hit before it can poison) than a bugbear, that hits for a lot more damage and is more likely to hit than the Draconian. Really, according to the CR formula a level 2 party should have a very tough time with a kapak, but even if it has the element of surprise and wins initiative, it's not likely to live out the first round.
#8 Granakrs Sep 11, 2003 3:44:42	Well, my tactic has always been allowing Kapak as bowmen in any military engagement. As i said the bladed throwing knives, for the conservatve Kapak who's willing to strike from a distance, uses his run feat liberally, and lets the poison work, can come back later. :-) Since Ranged attacks are Dex based, in a long ranged conflict, the draconian will win out. We're also talking about a potential 1d6 Dex drop with each successful hit. At the least, the victim is minimally hurt, makes his save, and is still capable. At the most, a 6 dex drop is a -3 modifier to nearly everything dex, including Reflex saves, and the all important initiative roll, not just AC. Granak Red-Silver Sivak
#9 zombiegleemax Sep 11, 2003 23:15:16	Originally posted by Granakrs Well, my tactic has always been allowing Kapak as bowmen in any military engagement. As i said the bladed throwing knives, for the conservatve Kapak who's willing to strike from a distance, uses his run feat liberally, and lets the poison work, can come back later. :-) Since Ranged attacks are Dex based, in a long ranged conflict, the draconian will win out. Hmmm. I'll have to try that. It may work but I just think that the limitation of applying the venom as a full-round action, using it within 3 rounds and then fleeing for 10 rounds would be pretty hard to pull off. The whole time the party will be peppering the Draconian with arrows and he only has 17 hp. I guess if it works I'll keep it at 4, but more than likely they'll end up 2 for any campaign I run.