For example. Throughout the books goblins and hobgoblins play a major role in the story of Dragonlance, but I don't remember seeing bugbears anywhere. Do they exist on Krynn? How about the goblin's favourite ally, the Warg? Again I don't remember seeing them anywhere in any of the books (although it's been 10-12 years since I've read any of the Dragonlance saga).
What about Kobolds and gnolls? These guys are generic, but again I don't recall them being mentioned by any of the books. We have ogres, trolls and minotaurs, but what about the great giants? I remember fighting Hill Giants in 'Champions of Krynn' but I don't think the old gold box games were all that true to the background of the campaign.
Then there's the gem dragons. Were they a Krynn thing or something else?
[UPDATE] I will make a list of what doesn't exist and what is somewhat more rare on Krynn than other worlds such as FR or greyhawk. It's mostly for my benefit but may also help you guys if you want to stay true to the saga.
Non-Existent
- Possibly some of the higher order Giants (storm and Frost). 2nd Ed used to place storm giants as the allies of titans.
- Gem Dragons. Still not sure about these guys. Were they always psionic? I could have swarn they were mentioned somewhere.
- Psionics in general. I may have missed it but is it a common rule that psionics don't exist on Krynn. I suppose the would have introduced them in the age of mortals if they were going to.
- Dinosaurs. Never seen them in any book specific to Ansalon although may be found on Taladas or some other continent.
Exist but are rarer than in a standard greyhawk or FR campaign.
- Dire animals. The traditional ones could probably fit easily enough (Dire Rats and Wolves). The bigger ones are probably left out (such as dire tigers and elephants)
- Hippogriffs(?). Griffons are common and used as mounts by the Elves (at least they used to be). Commonly known as windriders (I remembered that after I posted
), they were used as scouts and aerial combatants during the war of the lance by the elven nations. Hippogriffs on the other hand aren't mentioned anywhere and probably are outcompeted by the sheer number of Dragons, wyverns, gryphons and manticores that populate ansalon.- Treants. If Treants are anywhere in Krynn they would be in Qualinesti of Silvanesti. Personally, I'd exclude them or maybe use them as grove guardians for the towers of High sorcery (those which don't have undead).
- Wargs. As goblins are common on Krynn, then their best friends should probably exist, but as a rarity that most non-goblinoids have never seen or even heard of.
- Bugbears. These guys again seem to be rarely mentioned in a world populated with goblins and hobgoblins. Maybe they could live in very isolated communities in Ice-reach, the plains of Dust or Sable's swamp. Maybe they could be a product of the corruption bought by Chaos?
- Giants. It seems that giants are rare on Krynn. That is even rarer than that of Greyhawk. Particularly the big nasties. Hill giants and Fire giants should have their place though in inaccessable mountain areas and volcanoes.
- Gnolls and Kobolds. I think the niche for these guys has been filled with draconians and goblinoids. They still exist but are very rare.
- Beholders. These guys should probably be magical creations that guard crypts or keep death knights company in their isolated castles.
- Vampires. I personally wouldn't use them. I think death knights and liches are more true to the whole Dragonlance ideal of the balance, valour and epic play. The only source for vampires in Dragonlance are random encounter tables.
- Dracoliches. Until recently I thought that Dracoliches were purely a Realms invention. However, some posters have bought it to my attention that Cyan becomes a Dracolich at some stage (still not sure when or by whom) and that Mina rides an undead Dragon (Cyan?) to battle Malystryx over Sanction. Note that there is no cult of the Dragon but Dracoliches still seem to get created from time to time.
- Wemics. Again this is another creature that I thought existed solely in the Forgotten Realms, but apparently they are listed in a second Ed. encounter table. I'd place them solely in the plains of dust.
More common than in other campaign settings
- Goblins and Hobgoblins. In the absence of Orks and to a lesser extent Drow, in addition to the rarity of Gnolls, Kobolds, etc, these guys are probably your most commonly occuring monster in Ansalon.
- Minotaurs. While minotaurs seem to exist in most campaigns, the Dragonlance minotaur is quite different to their greyhawk counterparts. As a productive, intelligent, social race, they can be encountered often in Ansalon, particularly in the Western areas.
- Griffons. Rather than just a random beast, Elves used them as anti-draconic aerial forces in the war of the lance. Probably very common around Qualinesti and Silvanesti, as well as mountainous areas devoid of Dragons.
I will expand this list as more information is uncovered.
AFAIK, kobolds appear in Jean Rabe's books.
I don't think giants exist in Krynn. Then again, I could be wrong.
Dunno about others.
Originally posted by The man formerly known as Woza
The monster section of the campaign setting highlights a few of the monsters that are absent from Dragonlance, most notably orks. What I'd like to do is come up with a definative list of what else is missing from the world.
Page 212 in the first paragraph it says that almost ALL creatures in the Monster Manual are suitable for dragonlance with the following exceptions: drider, drow elves, halflings, lycanthropes, mind flayers, orcs, half-orcs and titans. Everything else is up for grabs. Although some creatures may not be "as common" as they would be in other worlds (like beholders and giants). But it does not explicitly state that they don't exist.
For example. Throughout the books goblins and hobgoblins play a major role in the story of Dragonlance, but I don't remember seeing bugbears anywhere. Do they exist on Krynn? How about the goblin's favourite ally, the Warg? Again I don't remember seeing them anywhere in any of the books (although it's been 10-12 years since I've read any of the Dragonlance saga).
What about Kobolds and gnolls? These guys are generic, but again I don't recall them being mentioned by any of the books. We have ogres, trolls and minotaurs, but what about the great giants? I remember fighting Hill Giants in 'Champions of Krynn' but I don't think the old gold box games were all that true to the background of the campaign.
Then there's the gem dragons. Were they a Krynn thing or something else?
Bugbears - exist
Worgs - They can exist. If they did I would include them in Throt or Qualinesti.
Kobolds - kobolds appear in Jean Rabe's books.
Gnolls - Appear in the novel Lord Toede
Giants - Hill Giants are mentioned in the Dhamon Saga, Fire Giants are mentioned in Conundrum. But giants are a race in decline. They exist, but I wouldn't expect to see any "giant wars" on Ansalon.
Gem Dragons... Ok I don't think they exist and should probably be added to the list above. Any creature with pscionics should probably be avoided (like mind flayers) or altered to not use them (like changing mind flayers to yaggol in Taladas).
I would say that just about all MM creatures are there, but some might just be very rare.
I never understood why Titans don't exist. The MM Titans are nothing like the Irda-esqe Ogre Titans.
I have a small gathering of Mountain and Fog Giants in the Mountains of Mt. Nevermind.
Originally posted by Kalanth
Whats the name of the non-psionic Mind Flayer?
Yaggol.
Hypogriffs and Griffons. These are pretty much the standard aerial mounts of most campaigns. However Dragonlance is heavily into Dragon riding and I have never seen any other sort of aerial mounts mentioned.
Treants. If these guys were going to be anywhere you would think that Qualinesti and Silvanesti would be the hot spots. Yet I don't remember them being mentioned anywhere previously.
Dire Animals. These guys are fairly new to D&D. Do you think they would fit into Dragonlance easily?
Originally posted by The man formerly known as Woza
Here are some more I've been thinking about.
Hypogriffs and Griffons. These are pretty much the standard aerial mounts of most campaigns. However Dragonlance is heavily into Dragon riding and I have never seen any other sort of aerial mounts mentioned.
What about the fact that Tanis rode on the back of a Griffon at some point, I think it was the chronicles. The Griffons more so than Hippogriffs (if I remember right) are the favored mounts of the Qualenesti elves and Kagonesti Elves (when Kagonesti decide to 'fly' that is).
Originally posted by The man formerly known as Woza
Hypogriffs and Griffons. These are pretty much the standard aerial mounts of most campaigns. However Dragonlance is heavily into Dragon riding and I have never seen any other sort of aerial mounts mentioned.
The elves of dragonlance were quite fond of griffons actually, and have appeared in the novels on many occasions. They played a part in the chronicles, and a big part in the elven nations trilogy as well. That's just off the top of my head. So, I can assure you that griffons do exist on Krynn.
Originally posted by The man formerly known as Woza
Dire Animals. These guys are fairly new to D&D. Do you think they would fit into Dragonlance easily?
They're not technically new. D&D's always had dire wolves, this is just an expansion of that to include other larger, more prehistoric versions of animals.
Cheers,
Cam
Basically, Griffins are pretty standard as being the 'good mount'. They're mentioned in Chronicles, especially the later ones, as being messengers for the good forces (much like wyverns were for the Dragonarmies).
Hippogriffs, however, get next to no mention so far as I've seen.
Originally posted by The man formerly known as Woza
Treants. If these guys were going to be anywhere you would think that Qualinesti and Silvanesti would be the hot spots. Yet I don't remember them being mentioned anywhere previously.
There was a Treant (although an evil one) In Dezra's Quest. And I would think that any ancient forest could possible have them even if not specifically mentioned. Silvanesti for sure and the Darkenwood near Solace perhaps?
Ok, here is a kind that you probably won't see... dinosaurs. ;)
Originally posted by SweetMeats
I missed a couple out there.
I never understood why Titans don't exist. The MM Titans are nothing like the Irda-esqe Ogre Titans.
Because the Titans of old were rivals of the gods. And as the Dragonlance gods created everything themselves, I don't think they'd create their own potential ursurpers.
Edit: On another thought, imagine if they were around once Takhisis stole the world? They could have even given the Overlords a run for their money.
Originally posted by Kipper Snifferdoo
Giants - Hill Giants are mentioned in the Dhamon Saga, Fire Giants are mentioned in Conundrum. But giants are a race in decline. They exist, but I wouldn't expect to see any "giant wars" on Ansalon.
I think it's in the Rise of the Titans battle line adventure where they say Hill giants exist as fallen ogres who kept their physical might. But that is Dauroth (the first ogre-titan) talking, so it may or may not be true. I don't remember anything about the other kinds though (stone, fire, cold, fog, cloud, storm...). Then again, the greygem would probably be the best way to explain their existence. I'm not sure their flavor quite fit in DL though... It seems to me as a race that powerful we would have heard of them before... Well there was an evil fog giant in DL16, but I guess that doesnt count, right?
By the way, just love the art in that book (Rise of the Titans, not DL16), I wonder what would that aritst's rendition of draconians be, or dragons, or solamnic knights... (hint, hint -> future DL products).
Worgs - They can exist. If they did I would include them in Throt or Qualinesti.
I guess it's natural to have goblinoid and worgs together. As a matter of fact, my players are going to get to see them real close next gaming session, seeing as they're heading for the Throtyl Gap...
Here are some more:
- Vampires. Deathknights seem to be the Dragonlance equivalent of Vampires. Do they exist together?
- I remember playing a game called Dragonstrike in the early 90's which had Dracoliches (or something similar) in it. Aren't they a FR creature? Does Dragonlance have something similar?
Originally posted by The man formerly known as Woza
- Vampires. Deathknights seem to be the Dragonlance equivalent of Vampires. Do they exist together?
Krynn certainly does have vampires. As for being the equivelant, I disagree. Vampires strike from the shadows and feed on the living. Death Knights nuke your sorry behind with abyssal fire. ;)
- I remember playing a game called Dragonstrike in the early 90's which had Dracoliches (or something similar) in it. Aren't they a FR creature? Does Dragonlance have something similar?
At least one, Cyan Bloodbane.
I don't expect digesters, ethereal filchers, or Yrthaks to show up myself. Yuanti seem to have been replaced by dragon spawn.
Originally posted by ferratus
Krynn certainly does have vampires. As for being the equivelant, I disagree. Vampires strike from the shadows and feed on the living. Death Knights nuke your sorry behind with abyssal fire. ;)
Where are they mentioned? Anything interesting in their background like a dying curse or something?
Originally posted by ferratus
At least one, Cyan Bloodbane.
I don't expect digesters, ethereal filchers, or Yrthaks to show up myself. Yuanti seem to have been replaced by dragon spawn.
When does Cyan become a Dracolich? I read in the timeline that he dies fighting one of the Dragon Overlords somehow. When is he raised and by who?
As for Etheral filchers etc, they aren't really generic D&D monsters so I don't think it's necessary to designate them likely to be on the world or not. I guess what I'm trying to avoid is introducing a run of the mill critter into a campaign and then have someone say "Hey, Mermen don't exist on Krynn!". I agree though that the monsters you've mentioned probably don't exist in Dragonlance.
Originally posted by The man formerly known as Woza
The monster section of the campaign setting highlights a few of the monsters that are absent from Dragonlance, most notably orks. What I'd like to do is come up with a definative list of what else is missing from the world.
I'll try not to repeat what's already been said ...
Giants: The Time of the Dragon boxed set detailing the continent of Taladas mentions the existence of frost, fire, and stone giants.
Vampires: They're listed in the encounter tables for the 2nd edition Monstrous Compendium, Volume IV (Dragonlance). (2.0 MC)
Psionic Creatures: Couatls (psionic winged serpents) are listed in the encounter tables for the 2.0 MC.
Dire Creatures: Dire wolves are listed in the encounter tables for the 2.0 MC.
Creatures one doesn't normally associate with Dragonlance, or they just aren't encountered or seen with any frequency:
Nagas, Wemics, Gnolls, Ettins, Remorhaz, all three common hags, Winter Wolves, Mammoths, Hydras, Galeb Duhr, Carnivorous Apes, Kraken, Vodyanoi, Hippocampi, Harpies, Treants, Lammasu, Aboleth, Lamias, Leucrotta, Umber Hulks, and Water Weirds are also listed in the 2.0 MC.
Whew.
Originally posted by Halabis
Hags are Graygem mutated High Ogres. Dont remember where I read that though.
Rise of the Titans makes mention of this. I don't remember reading it anywhere else.
Cheers,
Cam
I havn't seen them mentioned in either the current Dragonlance Campaign Setting or the Monster Manuals.
If they are still valid where can I get some details?
Originally posted by Choos
Are Amphi Dragons still a recognised Dragonlance critter?
I havn't seen them mentioned in either the current Dragonlance Campaign Setting or the Monster Manuals.
If they are still valid where can I get some details?
Yeah, they are still valid. I remeber Lord Toede had one...
Originally posted by iltharanos
Creatures one doesn't normally associate with Dragonlance, or they just aren't encountered or seen with any frequency:
Nagas, Wemics, Gnolls, Ettins, Remorhaz, all three common hags, Winter Wolves, Mammoths, Hydras, Galeb Duhr, Carnivorous Apes, Kraken, Vodyanoi, Hippocampi, Harpies, Treants, Lammasu, Aboleth, Lamias, Leucrotta, Umber Hulks, and Water Weirds are also listed in the 2.0 MC.
Whew.
Sorry I missed something here. Was the MC volume 4 specific to Krynn? (I assume it was, you did bracket Dragonlance afterall). Were these creatures listed in encounter tables?
I'd say that all the above creatures, with maybe the exception being Wemics, are as common on Krynn as they are in FR or greyhawk. I'll add Wemics to the list as very rare.
As a side note, Kraken are listed in the DLCS in or near some underwater ruins.
As a side-side note, I think Dragonlance gives us the opportunity to use many of the monsters in a similar way to how they are portrayed in mythology. Harpies, I would probably have on a sole island somewhere, lureing sailors to their death; Hydras could probably be crypt or lair guardians; etc.
Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007
Okay, what in the name of freaking is an amphi dragon?!
I'm going for either amphibious dragons or Amethyst dragons. Either type I'm interested in knowing more about.
There was also the Brine Dragon, which was like a huge Elasmosaur that breathed acid.
Both of which I'm hoping will be in the DL Monsters book.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
You could use Gem Dragons. If the forces of good and evil have dragons, why not the powers of neutrality?
you'd have to radically change them though. for one, most of their powers are psionics. You'd have to de-psionify them. Furthermore, you'd have to drop their abilities to dimension-slide, as i don't think that would be appropriete in dragonlance. all in all, really gem dragons don't belong in a non-psionic world.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
You could use Gem Dragons. If the forces of good and evil have dragons, why not the powers of neutrality?
This is why I always thought they were a Krynn thing. Obviously they're not, but maybe they could be? Then again it might throw the balance of power to much away from evil as good and neutrality seem to band together to maintain the balance.
Originally posted by The man formerly known as Woza
What about Kobolds and gnolls?
There are kobolds in the Blue Dragon Army in DL8 Dragons of War.
- Beholders. These guys should probably be magical creations that guard crypts or keep death knights company in their isolated castles.
They're on the random encounter table in DL13 Dragons of Truth. Apparently, they live in the caves under the Taman Busuk.
- Vampires. I personally wouldn't use them. I think death knights and liches are more true to the whole Dragonlance ideal of the balance, valour and epic play. The only source for vampires in Dragonlance are random encounter tables.
Bzzt, wrong! Page 17 of DL14 Dragons of Triumph. The ecounter is "Lair of the Blooddrinker".
- Dracoliches. Until recently I thought that Dracoliches were purely a Realms invention. However, some posters have bought it to my attention that Cyan becomes a Dracolich at some stage (still not sure when or by whom) and that Mina rides an undead Dragon (Cyan?) to battle Malystryx over Sanction. Note that there is no cult of the Dragon but Dracoliches still seem to get created from time to time.
Just to be pedantic about Dracholiches being Realmsian: S2 White Plume Mountain mentions "Dragotha the Undead Dragon". That's a Greyhawk module. The idea of undead dragons goes way back.
- Wemics. Again this is another creature that I thought existed solely in the Forgotten Realms, but apparently they are listed in a second Ed. encounter table. I'd place them solely in the plains of dust.
They live in the Taman Busuk. Page 11 of DL13. And wemics can't be a Realms-monster because they're a Gygax creation. They appeared in the AD&D Monster Cards, and 1E Monster Manual II years before the Realms were a commercial product.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
Amphidragons look like gigantic frogs or toads with dragon-like wings. I forget what their breath weapon is.
There was also the Brine Dragon, which was like a huge Elasmosaur that breathed acid.
Both of which I'm hoping will be in the DL Monsters book.
Is their going to be a DL Monster book?
Originally posted by Choos
Is their going to be a DL Monster book?
Aye. Its a November release if I'm not mistaken. Its called the Dragonlance Bestiary.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
Aye. Its a November release if I'm not mistaken. Its called the Dragonlance Bestiary.
Cool hope its a nice hardcover.
Originally posted by Choos
Cool hope its a nice hardcover.
Same here. I prefer monster books to be HC's. They get a lot of use and it helps protect them from wear & tear.
Originally posted by Choos
Cool hope its a nice hardcover.
It will be hardcover. It's also going to be full-color throughout. Here's a link to the information on Dragonlance.com:
http://www.dragonlance.com/d20/product.asp?id=SVP-4801
Cheers,
Cam
Shadow Dragons
Sea Dragons(Dragon Turtles)
Amphi Dragons
Brine Dragons
Fire/Chaos Dragons(Am not sure if there's a difference. In The Doom Brigade, they seem more serpentine, but in The Dragons of Chaos, they aren't)
ALso, I looked a DL product list one time, and two or three of them mention the dragons of "good, evil, and neutrality". WHat's up with htat?
Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007
Okay. So, in addition to the normal dragons, there are also:
Shadow Dragons
Sea Dragons(Dragon Turtles)
Sea dragons are not the same as dragon turtles. Sea dragons have more dragonlike heads and tails, and have age categories like regular dragons. Dragon turtles do not.
Amphi Dragons
Brine Dragons
Fire/Chaos Dragons(Am not sure if there's a difference. In The Doom Brigade, they seem more serpentine, but in The Dragons of Chaos, they aren't)
Fire dragons are dragons created by (or from) Chaos. Brine dragons are freak aberrations found near Watermere and nowhere else - they're not featured anywhere outside of Otherlands and could be chalked up as some variant of sea dragon (with big toothy grins).
ALso, I looked a DL product list one time, and two or three of them mention the dragons of "good, evil, and neutrality". WHat's up with htat?
This could be a reference to the Othlorx, some of whom were neutrally-aligned at least in principle. They were evil dragons who refused Takhisis' call in the Age of Despair and remained on Taladas.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by The man formerly known as Woza
Sorry I missed something here. Was the MC volume 4 specific to Krynn? (I assume it was, you did bracket Dragonlance afterall). Were these creatures listed in encounter tables?
I'd say that all the above creatures, with maybe the exception being Wemics, are as common on Krynn as they are in FR or greyhawk. I'll add Wemics to the list as very rare.
Yep, the MC Volume 4 was the Dragonlance volume of the 2nd edition Monstrous Compendium, and dealt solely with Dragonlance campaign monsters. The creatures I listed were all in the encounter tables.
The funny thing is I just remembered that Wemics were featured in the Tales of Uncle Trapspringer novel, and guess where Uncle Trapspringer saw these lion-men? The plains of Solamnia! Hehe, it's probably just a kender tale anyway. ;)
Originally posted by Cam Banks
This could be a reference to the Othlorx, some of whom were neutrally-aligned at least in principle. They were evil dragons who refused Takhisis' call in the Age of Despair and remained on Taladas.
Cheers,
Cam
The Othlorx also referred to those good dragons that refused to heed Paladine's call to war during the War of the Lance. :D
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It will be hardcover. It's also going to be full-color throughout. Here's a link to the information on Dragonlance.com:
http://www.dragonlance.com/d20/product.asp?id=SVP-4801
Cheers,
Cam
My thanks it looks like a beautiful cover but pricey.
Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007
Okay. So, in addition to the normal dragons, there are also:
Shadow Dragons
Sea Dragons(Dragon Turtles)
Amphi Dragons
Brine Dragons
Fire/Chaos Dragons(Am not sure if there's a difference. In The Doom Brigade, they seem more serpentine, but in The Dragons of Chaos, they aren't)
Now that is a lot of Dragons, I hope to see them all in the new DL critter book.
As a bit of forward interest are the Shadow Dragons the same as the Shadow Dragons in the Monsters of Faerun?
Originally posted by Cam Banks
....Brine dragons are freak aberrations found near Watermere and nowhere else - they're not featured anywhere outside of Otherlands and could be chalked up as some variant of sea dragon (with big toothy grins)....
Otherlands is an older Dragonlance module?
Originally posted by Choos
As a bit of forward interest are the Shadow Dragons the same as the Shadow Dragons in the Monsters of Faerun?
Otherlands is an older Dragonlance module?
Yes, the Shadow Dragon from the AoM is the same as the one in Monsters of Faerun.
Oterlands is a 2nd ed AD&D sourcebook and its quite good. I want to see a 3.5 revision of the book.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
Yes, the Shadow Dragon from the AoM is the same as the one in Monsters of Faerun.
Oterlands is a 2nd ed AD&D sourcebook and its quite good. I want to see a 3.5 revision of the book.
Cool thanks, hope this is still recognised.
Originally posted by Halabis
I was under the impression that the shadow dragon wasnt a Krynn native, but rather slipped on planet sometime during the Chaos war/Takisis's theft.
I guess that makes sense if the other Alien Dragons could come to Krynn why couldn't Dragons with links to the plane of shadow.
Originally posted by L33t Angel
The Shadow Dragon was created from Chaos and as such is in fact the Chaos Shadow Dragon. there were other Shadow Dragons in Krynn's past, but they are not common and more abberations than anything else
Ok that makes sense as well.
Dang confused now.
I think the shadow dragon in Skullcap was summoned by Fisti/Raistlin in order to guard the place (or something like that). So, I don't know where the shadow dragon was from originally, but it looks like they are not Krynn native.
The Shadow Dragon which appears in 5th Age was actually the shadow of Chaos. It broke off and had its own consciousness. So, I'm not sure if this counts as a 'real' Shadow Dragon or not. I think it was just a prefered form. All of this is covered in the Dhammon Saga, but unfortunately the details are slipping my mind.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Sea dragons are not the same as dragon turtles.
THey're not?! Whoa. I didn't know that. I was mostly going off the fact that sea dragons are described as being turtle-like, and that the picture I saw of a Sea dragon once looked just like a dragon turtle.
As far as dragons go, my favorite new types of dragons I've seen introduced were the Ferrous dragons in Dragon magazine (#170 I think). Anyone else remember them? These were five new dragons of neutral alignments and I think they fit much better in Dragonlance than the gem dragons. I would love to see them reprinted in a new product somewhere. If I ever get the chance to do an extended Taladas campaign I would like to use them in place of the Othlorx.