And the reason is pretty much under our noses. This board is deserted. You get a new topic per month, if you're lucky. No company will feel enthusiastic about a conversion if there's no fan base.
There are people who love Mystara and Red Steel out there... but they're scattered and not as many as there used to be.
Originally posted by doesitmatter
Was wondering if anyone knew if, and when, they are planning to convert Red Steel to 3rd ed?
the Mystara 3E website is at http://mystara3e.starflung.com/home.htm and the Mystara 3E conversion yahoo group is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mystara3E
Although I do not know what specifically they are doing for Mystara 3E.
Originally posted by Habronicus
AFAIK, no plans exist for an official conversion.
And the reason is pretty much under our noses. This board is deserted. You get a new topic per month, if you're lucky. No company will feel enthusiastic about a conversion if there's no fan base.
There are people who love Mystara and Red Steel out there... but they're scattered and not as many as there used to be.
I think you're picking up on an important point Habronicus but I think you've got the wrong cause. THese boards are relatively quite deserted because no one is using these boards. Most out in the open Mystaran activity happens on the Mystara Mailing List (the guide for which is at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091/MMLGuide.html).
Apart from that I think that the biggest problem that the continued visible presence of Mystara has at the moment is that there are large scale groups like the Almanac Group, which puts out a huge resource of new material every year (or 2 years now it seems) and is extremly active. THere's the 3E conversion group which hangs out in their own Yahoo Group. There are other Yahoo Groups, particularly Guild of OD&D being one that I'm thinking of which seems to particularly push the OD&D bandwagon. With all these other forums there isn't enough to go around to fill this message board too.
I think that there is an extensive fan base in the gameworld, especially also considering that this is the lognest dead world of most here, it's just that the fan base isn't active on this board.
However, when I mentioned these boards as important for an "official" conversion is because there are new players coming to D&D on a regular basis and when they look for information on the game, where do they go? The Wizards site.
All the mailing lists and yahoo groups are great efforts but they're sought after by people who already know what Mystara is.
One of the boards I most often visit is the D&D General and there are new players showing up constantly. If you mention Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, most have no trouble finding out what they are about - most people in these boards will be quick to point out the advantages of those settings.
But what if they hear about Mystara or other "oldie"? If you're lucky, someone will explain it's "one of the old D&D settings" and leave it at that.
Mystara fans, if they're really interested in an official conversion, should bring their knowledge to the source. This is where it all happens, for the most part. People who work in d20 publisher companies (or are planning in starting up one) come here and see where the money is.
*looks around*
Hehe... looks like I fell into a rant! :D
Anyway, I hope I got my point across. I, for one, had visited this board many times... but the lack of people posting discourages me to post as well. That's only a hint at what other people feel when they visit this place.
Originally posted by Habronicus
Anyway, I hope I got my point across. I, for one, had visited this board many times... but the lack of people posting discourages me to post as well. That's only a hint at what other people feel when they visit this place.
The problem with message boards is that they are rather awkward, unless you are mostly a lurker. It takes more time (at least for me) to write MB messages than emails, and I check the MB once a day at most.
Since most Mystaran discussion is about the world (expanding and deepening the setting), then the mailing list becomes much more useful than the MB -- you might say that the mailing list cannibalized the message board.
Then again, the Mystaran fans are probably less 3e-oriented than those of other settings -- many of us prefer OD&D or AD&D. This may mean that, while there is a fan base, it would not necessarily be a fan base for a d20 edition of Mystara.
GP
and so now I'm here too from the MML
It seems that this is the least frequented forum of the wizards community except maybe the Birthright's one...
Probably Agathokles is right saying that the MML cannibalized the forum, and sure it's easier to post there than here.. but the problem really is that Mystara has not visibility among younger fans, like Habronicus said... maybe even Hackmaster Mystara could change that a little, if it will be ever published... anyway I'll keep Mystara alive as best as I can :fight!:
Bye!
Francesco
Originally posted by Habronicus
Those are very good points.
However, when I mentioned these boards as important for an "official" conversion is because there are new players coming to D&D on a regular basis and when they look for information on the game, where do they go? The Wizards site.
All the mailing lists and yahoo groups are great efforts but they're sought after by people who already know what Mystara is.
One of the boards I most often visit is the D&D General and there are new players showing up constantly. If you mention Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, most have no trouble finding out what they are about - most people in these boards will be quick to point out the advantages of those settings.
But what if they hear about Mystara or other "oldie"? If you're lucky, someone will explain it's "one of the old D&D settings" and leave it at that.
Mystara fans, if they're really interested in an official conversion, should bring their knowledge to the source. This is where it all happens, for the most part. People who work in d20 publisher companies (or are planning in starting up one) come here and see where the money is.
*looks around*
Hehe... looks like I fell into a rant! :D
Anyway, I hope I got my point across. I, for one, had visited this board many times... but the lack of people posting discourages me to post as well. That's only a hint at what other people feel when they visit this place.
I agree with you that the situation isn't good and may not be our best interests if really wanted the game world back and have new products written for it ...
Originally posted by Agathokles
Then again, the Mystaran fans are probably less 3e-oriented than those of other settings -- many of us prefer OD&D or AD&D. This may mean that, while there is a fan base, it would not necessarily be a fan base for a d20 edition of Mystara.
GP
... and maybe also there is an element of that about too.
Originally posted by stanles
... and maybe also there is an element of that about too.
Uhm I don't know exactly how the situation in the Usa or Australia is, but here in Italy where Mystara was very popular, nowadays the younger 3ed players don't know it... the problem is that if the setting goes on only with its old fans the number of mystaran players will erode through time... so I hope that there will be a sort of Mystara 3ed.. fan or not... for my part I'll try to keep the setting alive ad well keeping on playing it and sometimes writing for the Vault and the almanac
Bye
Francesco
Now, are Mystara and Red Steel one and the same?
I DO own the Red Steel boxed set, as well as Savage Baronies, but I mostly just use them for the CDs. I vaguely remember a disease that ravages the land, as well as CLOCKWORK SWORDSMEN (which could quite possibly by the illest D&D creation I've ever heard).
I also know there's at LEAST one Ravenloft Darklord from Mystara. His name is Meredoth, and last I checked he was DL of the Nocturnal Seas (don't have access to my library at the moment, so forgive me if I err). He was featured in the 1991 Ravenloft module Ship of Horrors. You can actually see his picture from the cover of that module as an avatar here on the site!
Wasn't Mystara just a basic D&D setting? Was it even 2E? I always assumed the game was for younger fans just getting into the game.
Is there anymore to it than the Red Steel and Savage Baronies boxed sets?
If anybody likes Ravenloft, my current campaign is unfolding as we speak:
http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=293
C'mon down and say hello.
peace,
MSD
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
Hey y'all, just thought I'd pop in and say whattup.
Now, are Mystara and Red Steel one and the same?
MSD
If you mean "Is the Red Steel setting an extension of Mystara's 'Known World'?" then, yes, they are one and the same.
Any more to it? You can download the Orc's Head Peninsula expansion and Red Steel Monstrous Compendium from the Wizard's site (somewhere....). I believe the Vaults of Pandius have an online version of the Compendium... Yep, just checked: C'mon... who doesn't want to fight an Inheritor Lich?
That being said.. I think I have a rough 3rd Edition conversion of the Red Steel material somewhere on my hard drive. Don't remember where I got it, but overall, it didn't look too bad. Inheritor Prestige class, anyone...?
Rob
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
Hey y'all, just thought I'd pop in and say whattup.
Now, are Mystara and Red Steel one and the same?
Red Steel is in the gameworld of Mystara, yes. It tacks on immediately to the left of the Known World setting.
I DO own the Red Steel boxed set, as well as Savage Baronies, but I mostly just use them for the CDs. I vaguely remember a disease that ravages the land, as well as CLOCKWORK SWORDSMEN (which could quite possibly by the illest D&D creation I've ever heard).
I also know there's at LEAST one Ravenloft Darklord from Mystara. His name is Meredoth, and last I checked he was DL of the Nocturnal Seas (don't have access to my library at the moment, so forgive me if I err). He was featured in the 1991 Ravenloft module Ship of Horrors. You can actually see his picture from the cover of that module as an avatar here on the site!
Wasn't Mystara just a basic D&D setting? Was it even 2E? I always assumed the game was for younger fans just getting into the game.
Mystara was taken across to 2E yes. D&D was the game system for the younger fans because it was considered less rules intensive. The Known World (which later expanded into the whole of Mystara) was the game world that grew out of that. The game setting itself isn't childish in anyway.
Is there anymore to it than the Red Steel and Savage Baronies boxed sets?
To Red Steel or Mystara? There's heaps more to Mystara definitely try http://dnd.starflung.com/prodlist.html for a complete list. To the Savage Coast setting there isn't a lot more released stuff. The boxed sets you mention were made from the earlier Boyage of the Princess Ark stories in Dragon Magazine. There are also some D&D modules in the area but these were retconned into the past when Bruce's stories populated the area. Unofficial stuff on the Vaults of Pandius expand the area.
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
I DO own the Red Steel boxed set, as well as Savage Baronies, but I mostly just use them for the CDs. I vaguely remember a disease that ravages the land, as well as CLOCKWORK SWORDSMEN (which could quite possibly by the illest D&D creation I've ever heard).
unfortunately there was a couple of silly ones thoughout D&D
peace,
MSD
Originally posted by stanles
To Red Steel or Mystara? There's heaps more to Mystara definitely try http://dnd.starflung.com/prodlist.html for a complete list. To the Savage Coast setting there isn't a lot more released stuff.
There is the Monstrous Compendium Appendix, though.
GP
Originally posted by Agathokles
There is the Monstrous Compendium Appendix, though.
GP
erk, forgot about that one
In case you haven't seen issue 315 of Dragon yet, it contains an updated rules set for 3.5 Red Steel. The new rules cover red steel, cinnabryl, the Red Curse, Legacies, and of course everybody's favorite Savage Coast race, the tortles.
I wrote the article, so I'd love to hear what you think of it. I tried to stay quite true to both the boxed set and the original Voyage of the Princess Ark series of articles in Dragon. Since I myself haven't seen the issue yet (subscription delivery seems to be delayed somehow...), I don't know if this piece made it into the article, but I did include a section on the publishing history of the setting.
Let me know what you think.
Frank Brunner
I'll tell you what i think about your article.
It'a very good thing that articles about Mystara (not just Savage Coast but Hollow world too, afaik) reappear in Dragon. I hope the issue sell so much that there'll be another similar soon
bye
Francesco
And I completely agree that Dragon should feature more articles in the future covering Mystara, Red Steel and the Savage Coast, Hollow World, etc. One of the things that can distinguish Paizo and WOTC from other d20 publishers is their access to all that grand old TSR intellectual property; they should use it often.I'm sitting here with Dragon 315 in front of me and the formatting at the bottom of the leagcies table is slightly off. The 20th legacy Pyric Brand and it's power are tacked on to the end of the 19th legacies power.
Other than that it looks very interesting and I'm tempted to move the party there although WOTI is about to kick off.
Regards,
Gary
Glad you liked the article!
I have to say I love Cara Mitten's picture of the tortle. I didn't know who Cara Mitten was, so I just went and googled her to find her site. Here's a plug: http://hyenapaws.critter.net/ Thanks for the great picture, Cara!
Anyone else has comments on the Mystara material?
Originally posted by Ycore Rixle
Hello All,
In case you haven't seen issue 315 of Dragon yet, it contains an updated rules set for 3.5 Red Steel. The new rules cover red steel, cinnabryl, the Red Curse, Legacies, and of course everybody's favorite Savage Coast race, the tortles.
I wrote the article, so I'd love to hear what you think of it.
Frank Brunner
Thanks for the contribution Frank. Overall I liked it. There were some questions that Herve had brought up on the mailing list which I will repeat here:
Any reason why you did not make an Inheritor a prestige class?
You gave afflicted two legacies while the original rules gave only one, did you feel one legacy did not balance out the negative of the affliction?
The intelligence of 3 requirement to be affected by the Red Curse eliminates animals who were affected under 2E rules. Was this to prevent certain 3rd Edition monsters from getting it?
The article mentions no known cure for the affliction, did you have to cut the 2E cure for space limitations?
The article wasn't clear on the adverse effects of inheritors becoming afflicted, did you have specific rules for that?
Glad you liked it overall. As you have guessed, space limitations were a huge factor with the article. Still, I think the editors did a great job of finding enough space (more than originally intended for the Red Steel article, by the way) to do the setting justice.
Originally posted by NPC Dave
Any reason why you did not make an Inheritor a prestige class?
Space limitations. PrClasses take a lot of room. Also, I felt that the the feat mechanic was a good match with the old rules. The signature ability of the Inheritor was to gain a new legacy every three levels, 1, 3, 6, 9 etc., and that fits nicely with the 3e feat rules.
Originally posted by NPC Dave
You gave afflicted two legacies while the original rules gave only one, did you feel one legacy did not balance out the negative of the affliction?
Yes, although my original afflicted template had greater abilitiy score penalties. I'm sure it was a balancing decision by the editors.
Basically, you can either say that a) Affliction is just this huge detriment that makes the creature a weak object of pity or scorn, or b) Affliction is a horrible twisting that harms the creature but also makes it a dangerous, unpredictable opponent (or a hideous but still competent ally). I liked the second option better, so I added the extra legacy, nat. armor, etc. I hope it's a small enough embellishment that it keeps the flavor and spirit of the original rules while making the campaign even more interesting.
Originally posted by NPC Dave
The intelligence of 3 requirement to be affected by the Red Curse eliminates animals who were affected under 2E rules. Was this to prevent certain 3rd Edition monsters from getting it?
Yes. I thought Nithian Whispers and Amber Sharpness, in particular, would be odd Legacies for an animal to have. In the end, though, I like the flavor of animals having the Red Curse too. I don't see any problem with including it. (Although there is the whole 'Ixion cursed those who intentionally sought power in the region' argument, because how does an animal intentionally seek power? But this problem was present in the 2e rules as well.)
Originally posted by NPC Dave
The article mentions no known cure for the affliction, did you have to cut the 2E cure for space limitations?
Yes.
Originally posted by NPC Dave
The article wasn't clear on the adverse effects of inheritors becoming afflicted, did you have specific rules for that?
Do you mean beyond the doubling of ability score penalties when acquiring the afflicted template if you're an Inheritor? Honestly, that is the only adverse effect of becoming an afflicted Inheritor that I had room to include, and it is mentioned in the article twice on p. 71 (under Abilities at the top of column one and at the bottom flowing into the top of column two). Granted, this is not as significant a penalty as it was in my original version (which had steeper ability penalties for afflicted). This was no doubt a balancing change by the editors. It still is not very far off from my original, and I think it works quite well enough.
Let me know what other questions you have. I don't see the mailing list, but I do watch here and EN World regularly. If there had been more room, I would have loved to include a few more races (lupin, rakasta), more legacies, more political info on the Savage Baronies and Herath... Hm, maybe a sequel article if Dragon decides to do a Campaign Classics 2 issue. Given the popularity of 315, that seems like a great idea!
Though I'm still doing my own version for personal use. :D
The Red Steel article is some pretty good writing... and good editing, if the article is as big as some of the ones mentioned in the Editorial. Kudos all around, and let's keep pushing the Dragon editors for another round of "classics" in another six-to-twelve months.
Frank -- I sincerely hope they use more of your Red Steel material in the future. Can you give us any hints about any of the material got snipped for space reasons?
While I was at first a bit puzzled as to why the Inheritor was a feat, rather than a PrClass, I can easily see now how your method works within the 3/3.5ed rule scheme. Its all good, since I don't use Prestige classes, anyway ;)
Its been a long while since I found so much material in Dragon that I could pull out and use as seeding for my own campaign. But then, maybe its just because I've got a bit of a soft spot for the OD&D/Mystara/Blackmoor/Savage Coast/Hollow World settings.
Since I saw somebody asking about the other Mystaran articles, let's see...
The Hollow World delves into the Azcan Empire, and details a template and feat set for melding saurian qualities to a PC/NPC/monster by twisting the blessings and likeness of the Immortal Ka.
The Mystara article details the lost city of Cynicidea (sp? don't have the article in front of me right now); it was nice to see they didn't go the easy "Let's write about Karameikos" route.
The Blackmoor article was a bit... not what I was expecting. Halfling martial artist PrClass, but with the setting coming out "full-blown" some time next year, I guess they didn't have a whole lot of options.
With it being "classics" as in no-longer-supported-game-settings... I'd love to know why they devoted space to the Realms, Greyhawk and Ghostwalk.
Originally posted by RobJN
Can you give us any hints about any of the material got snipped for space reasons?
Like you said, the editors did a good job. All of the core mechanics that were in my original manuscript made it into the magazine. The one exception, I suppose, would be the rules for panache points. But that's ok, because basically you can just use the Action Point system from d20 Modern or the upcoming Eberron setting to duplicate panache. (Personally in my own campaign we don't use panache.) If there had been more room, maybe lupins, rakasta, and more legacies could have been included. Fighting schools and secret passes would be great too, although they would almost be an article in and of themselves (and in fact they were, IIRC way back in a 1995 Dragon article or so).
Originally posted by Ycore Rixle
Hi Dave!
Glad you liked it overall. As you have guessed, space limitations were a huge factor with the article. Still, I think the editors did a great job of finding enough space (more than originally intended for the Red Steel article, by the way) to do the setting justice.
I've only read the the Mystaran articles at the moment and they all seemed fairly harshly editted, they don't seem to flow very well and try to cover too much. That being said I enjoyed them, though I found myself thinking that I was glad that I knew the setting as without that I might be a bit lost. I'll see how I go with some of the other articles for settings that I don't know so well.
All that being said however it would eb good if Dragon had more regular features of old campaign stuff rather than having to wait for an issue to cram everything in.
The Red Steel article was my favorite of the three, although I did think the Tortle racial traits were missing a few details - mainly, that in 2E Tortles had the ability to withdraw into their shells (in my game, I made this a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, but gives the Tortle a significant AC and Save bonus). The Red Curse/Inheritor stuff looked pretty good, but I have not broken out the old rules for a side-by-side comparison yet. Thumbs up.
The Hollow World article I found to be extremely lame. Initially intrigued by the idea of an evil ritual that siphons off and corrupts part of a deity's power, I got to the part about the ritual granting 'dino-powers' to the base creature and had to laugh. My players would never forgive me for putting them up against Dino-Azcans, and the template is too broken for me to allow PCs access to it. Thumbs down (way down).
The Mystara article was dissapointing. Nothing new here, just 3.5 stats for Zargon (yawn), and the domains for the deities of Cynidicea. Thumbs down.
Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
Originally posted by katana_one
I have to say that I was a little disappointed in the Mystara-related articles. Now that I understand that some content was cut for space limitations (why does this issue seem thinner than others?) I am a bit more forgiving.
The Red Steel article was my favorite of the three, although I did think the Tortle racial traits were missing a few details - mainly, that in 2E Tortles had the ability to withdraw into their shells (in my game, I made this a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, but gives the Tortle a significant AC and Save bonus). The Red Curse/Inheritor stuff looked pretty good, but I have not broken out the old rules for a side-by-side comparison yet. Thumbs up.
The Hollow World article I found to be extremely lame. Initially intrigued by the idea of an evil ritual that siphons off and corrupts part of a deity's power, I got to the part about the ritual granting 'dino-powers' to the base creature and had to laugh. My players would never forgive me for putting them up against Dino-Azcans, and the template is too broken for me to allow PCs access to it. Thumbs down (way down).
The Mystara article was dissapointing. Nothing new here, just 3.5 stats for Zargon (yawn), and the domains for the deities of Cynidicea. Thumbs down.
Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
I agree, the Red Steel article was the best.
I think that the Mystara article probably only got up because it was so related to a B series module that maybe they thought that it would interest the long term players who remembered playing the module. But in terms of the gameworld itself the whole Cynidicea thing is unimportant and a bit boring anyway. I don't know how Mystara would win fans with the article.
And yeah the HW one was a bit a laugh at the game idea mechanics behind it.
Actually, I kind of like that Cynidicea was never expanded on in the official sources. It lends to the "Lost City" kind of feel- it's a culture that ended early and sort of got misplaced in the shuffle of history.
Plus, it adds to the customization of things- those who own the module can include the culture as they like, those who don't own the module don't have to worry about it. The ability to pick and choose was always one of the things that attracted me to Mystara the most. Each of the gazetteers is more like a mini-campaign than anything else; you can just take the ones you want and ignore the ones you don't like. It gives much different options than something like the Realms, which has this encyclopedic tome of everything that must be included.
The one B-series module that never worked out when it came to placement for me was Rahasia. X3 (Castle Amber) was also a difficult one to retrofit, but interesting for a glance at Old Averoigne.
As far as placement of the old modules, that is a very interesting topic. For my own campaign, I placed Rahasia in a remote area of Alphatia, as the Dawn of the Emporers set left a lot of area open for development. You could also easily set it in Norwold or Wendar, in my opinion - anywhere you could put a solitary mountain and an isolated community of elves.
I never ran Castle Amber in my game, although it would not be too difficult to fit in. If memory serves, the characters begin the module having been magically transported through time and space to a Limbo-like pocket dimension. It's conceivable to run this module no matter where the players are.
Originally posted by katana_one
It's not a question of whether or not the original Lost City module was of any value or significance as part of the Mystara campaign, its the article about Cynidicia in Dragon #315 that we are talking about.
yeah bit as a selling point for Mystara ... it well basically isn't. As a reminiscent piece on the world ... well it's reminiscent of that 1 adventure but that's all. As an interesting 3E piece it isn't.
Does it really work for anyone out there?
Originally posted by katana_one
[b]It's not a question of whether or not the original Lost City module was of any value or significance as part of the Mystara campaign, its the article about Cynidicia in Dragon #315 that we are talking about.
Ahh, ok ... haven't read it.
As far as placement of the old modules, that is a very interesting topic. For my own campaign, I placed Rahasia in a remote area of Alphatia, as the Dawn of the Emporers set left a lot of area open for development. You could also easily set it in Norwold or Wendar, in my opinion - anywhere you could put a solitary mountain and an isolated community of elves.
I guess it would work in Alphatia ... just about anything can work in Alphatia, really ... but Norwold? Wendar? Aren't these a bit too northern for an Arabic-feeling module? I did have a thought you could throw it somewhere in Hule though now that you mention it ... there have to be some elves somewhere on their frontiers ... perhaps a small community left from the migrations out of northwest Brun. That would actually fit quite nicely! I guess I was just whining about Rahasia because TSR never really tried to locate it in a canon way like they did with alot of other stuff. But you're right I can think of a few places to toss it in. It would even make the transition from Glantri to the Sind a bit smoother, or perhaps on the Darokin border.
I never ran Castle Amber in my game, although it would not be too difficult to fit in. If memory serves, the characters begin the module having been magically transported through time and space to a Limbo-like pocket dimension. It's conceivable to run this module no matter where the players are.
My problem with X3 isn't location, it's just a few other things. For instance, at the end I seem to remember all the players being granted noble status - in Glantri? Non-wizards? Dwarves and clerics even? Easily fixed of course. But then there are all sorts of other questions, like how on earth would Etienne ... aka the Immortal Rad ... allow the Amber family to vanish into another dimension, and if somehow that did happen, I should think it would be a task for some extremely high-powered adventurers (if not low-level Immortals!). I just found the idea of trying to retrofit that one threw way too many monkeywrenches into the campaign. But it's great for source material on the Ambers.
Another one that's always interesting is B3 (Palace of the Silver Princess). In the intro it's located in Glantri, but later on it gets set down somewhere in eastern Karameikos. Not to mention it details a number of nearby dominions which wouldn't be easy to fit in. Or the title of Haven's ruler - it's a Principality? How can a Grand Duke be the liege of a Princess?
Of course, I'm just picking bones. With enough changes all this could be easily adapted. But it is an interesting topic as to what changes would be necessary.
Originally posted by stanles
I think you're picking up on an important point Habronicus but I think you've got the wrong cause. THese boards are relatively quite deserted because no one is using these boards. Most out in the open Mystaran activity happens on the Mystara Mailing List (the guide for which is at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091/MMLGuide.html).
.
That link you posted didn't work for me. Can you re-post it?
Originally posted by katana_one
The Red Steel article was my favorite of the three, although I did think the Tortle racial traits were missing a few details - mainly, that in 2E Tortles had the ability to withdraw into their shells (in my game, I made this a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, but gives the Tortle a significant AC and Save bonus).
I'm extremely curious what other folks would do about the old tortle "withdraw into its shell" ability.
Anyone else care to give specifics how they would duplicate this 3.5?
Would the rules for cover and concealment be a good place to get ideas? (Remember this changed from 3.0 to 3.5.) Maybe withdrawing inside the shell is effectively like when a character uses a tower shield for total cover.
Something to consider, that by withdrawing into the shell, the tortle effectively must drop prone. Plus, by a tortle should lose Dex bonuses to AC. One might want to add something that a tortle within its shell is immune to damage from Grappling attacks by creatures size Large and smaller... unless the Strength score of the Grappler is some big number.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Decent natural armor bonus (+3 or +4 maybe) - remember, that this does not stack with armor worn by the tortle.
Can withdraw completely into the shell as a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, but gives the following benefits:
1) additional +4 (or more?) cover bonus to AC (total cover, as from a tower shield, is not possible, as the tortle can still be attacked through his shell - the shell is part of the tortle's anatomy after all)
2) +4 situational modifier to all saving throws (maybe exclude Reflex saves from this bonus, on the other hand, the tortle is well insulated against many types of damage)
3) immunity to gaze attacks
And possibly other benefits I've not thought of yet.
Of course, the tortle loses his Dex bonus to AC, and is therefore vulnerable to sneak attack damage (a deft rouge can just slip a blade inside the shell's openings) and really cannot do anything to resist a grapple, bull rush, or such attacks since he is now prone and immobile.
Of course, nobody in my campaign has ever wanted to play a tortle, so I may just forget about it and save myself the work!
Originally posted by katana_one
Decent natural armor bonus (+3 or +4 maybe) - remember, that this does not stack with armor worn by the tortle.
Natural armor does stack with regular armor in 3.x though.
Originally posted by katana_one
Can withdraw completely into the shell as a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, but gives the following benefits:
1) additional +4 (or more?) cover bonus to AC (total cover, as from a tower shield, is not possible, as the tortle can still be attacked through his shell - the shell is part of the tortle's anatomy after all)
You are correct that attacks cannot be made against a target with total cover... so what about this. Withdrawing in the shell increases the tortle's natural AC from +3 to +7. While withdrawn, all physical damage against the tortle is considered nonlethal damage, unless the attacker takes a –4 penalty to his attacks to do normal damage (unless the attacker can deal normal and nonlethal damage without penalty, in which case he doesn't need to take the –4 penalty).
It is just like when a character tries to deal nonlethal damage with a normal-damaging weapon, but flipped. Anyway... just a concept...
Instead of giving bonuses to all saves when withdrawn, I'd consider giving the tortle improved evasion against any attack to which Reflex save cover bonuses apply (and no Reflex save bonus as the shell would be effectively rated as "soft cover", IMO) rather than save bonuses to Fort, Ref, and Will. Although... I could be persuaded easily on those.
I'm just too stuck on being withdrawn in the shell being a situation where rules for cover apply.Also with regard to grappling, yeah a tortle inside his shell is an easy target to be grappled... but I have this cartoon-bubble of someone inside a tough barrel while it is being squeezed... They had no way of avoiding it, but they aren't suffering any hurt. That's what I was getting at when I proposed that a tortle in his shell wouldn't take damage from a grapple. It would also need to be said that such a tortle couldn't oppose a grapple check or make an Escape Artist check...
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Natural armor does stack with regular armor in 3.x though.
True, but I feel the tortle's shell should be an exception to this rule, and would be stipulated in the racial traits.
… consider giving the tortle improved evasion against any attack to which Reflex save cover bonuses apply … I'm just too stuck on being withdrawn in the shell being a situation where rules for cover apply.
Sounds pretty reasonable. I just figured that a blanket +4 modifier to all saves would be the simplest way to express the cover afforded by the shell.
As for the grappling, how about this - the tortle gains DR 5 against subdual damage while in the shell. Could work, I guess.
Now that I think about it, DR is another way to express the shell in 3.x. Instead of the natural armor bonus, the tortle could have a flat DR 5/- against all attacks (more if fully withdrawn?). Doing this, however, should raise the character's ECL modifier.
Interesting discussion, though!