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#1zombiegleemaxSep 15, 2003 23:27:38 | I tried to bring this up several times in the Greytalk chat room but was scoffed at and derided. Hopefully some more open-minds are here who can contribute something useful to the idea Basically, it's a way of incorporating the various rules changes throughout the various editions, and even within editions through supplements or conflicting information, into the very fabric of the world as part of history and evolution. For instance. Instead of saying, "No dwarves can be wizards 'cause that's how Greyhawk was originally and that's how it will always be in my games!" you embrace the changes of 3rd edition by giving some reason for it to have happened within the context of the world's history. In this case, you could have it that the despicable derro, created by the Suel as a thrall race, have since overthrown their creators and carved a niche for themselves in various locales in underoerth. Terrorizing the true dwarven races for centuries, some of their sorcerous ability has tainted dwarven bloodlines so that every so often, a dwarf is born with the ability to use magic. This has been compounded by a secretive order of cabalists amongst dwarven-kind who believe that to deny the power of magic to the dwarven race is to doom them to destruction. Already they have lost numerous homelands to invading humans and humanoids who used magic to tip the scales in battle and the dwarven race has been dwindling ever since. So they have fostered generations of dwarven sorcerers and learned from them, much as the Suel did thousands of years ago, and have developed their own wizardry, with the aid of other secretive magical societies like, perhaps, the Silent Ones. But it is only recently, since around 590 C.Y., that dwarven mages have appeared openly, having always feared the repercussions of their kin. Now... to me... this is just ****ing cool. I HATE having rules dictate things, but on the flipside, I like third edition and want to allow dwarven wizards and yes, even halfling paladins! But instead of just plonking the rule down and saying, 'Right, this is how it's gonna be from now on,' I think the more constructive and, far more interesting, way of doing things is justifying the changes as I've done above. This creates a very dynamic situation for the setting as well as giving players a lot more to draw on whilst still allowing you, as the DM, to draw on all previous (to 3rd ed) sources of material, without any need to retrofit them to fit the edition. This subject, btw, was brought to mind once more, by the Specialists thread about the Circle of Eight. In 1st ed, there were no specialists (aside from illusionists, IIRC), but the times, they are a changing... |
#2cwslyclghSep 16, 2003 0:41:06 | For instance. Instead of saying, "No dwarves can be wizards 'cause that's how Greyhawk was originally and that's how it will always be in my games!" of course in a greyhawk novel that came out durring 1st edition there is a dwarven wizard... |
#3gadodelSep 16, 2003 0:55:30 | Hmmm...I agree with an evolutionary standpoint. The game should present options, not limitations. There should be a nice root to grow from and plenty of branching off ways to play. I am not sure if I just said something philosophical-poetic even or something too "well duh!".... |
#4chatdemonSep 16, 2003 2:01:53 | Originally posted by cwslyclgh Those novels also feature: Blimps cross species **** Iuz getting killed by some moron with a dagger first level mages spontaneously casting "a simple 6th level spell" (Author's words, not mine) In other words, Rose Estes' novels are not exactly a tried and true source of greyhawk canon. More to the point, I have no problem with embracing change that crops up from edition to edition, as long as that change does not violate the canon of my greyhawk campaign. Published Greyhawk can have all the halfling paladins, elven necromancers and dwarven mages it wants, but those things wont happen in my game because I long ago came up with in-story reasons for the old limitations, because I had players then that wanted to break the rules and I ruled to enforce them. Other things, like monsters with levels for example, I openly adopt, since I've done similar things in the past. I also willingly accept the cool stuff from new material (3e or d20) that doesn't conflict with anything I've done so far. |
#5cwslyclghSep 16, 2003 3:47:38 | cross species **** is how 1st edition (and second edition for that matter) harpies and minotaurs procreated ;) but yes, the rest was a little lame. they were put out by TSR, and had Greyhawk on the cover however... and by current WotC standards that does make them cannon (Rose Estes was definatly better at writing the choose your own adventure style "Endless Quest" books then she was at the novels). |
#6ArgonSep 16, 2003 8:06:04 | Delgath it looks like you took a page out of my book. The only difference in my campaign it wasn't necessarily the Suel who created the Derro (I know this was published in an issue of Dragon magizine that the Suel created the Derro but I'm putting my spin on it and why most history books might see it the Dragon magizine way.). When the Suel took the gift of magic that had been taught to them by the Elven people's. It didn't take long for the power to be corrupted. The Suel Imperium as they called themselves sort to use their misbegotten magic's to conquer all of Oerth. Luckly for Oerth the Suel people weren't the only ones to be taught this magnificient gift. Another Empire rose around the same time known as the Baklunish people. While the ever wise Flan refused to misuse the elven gifts. The Baklunish Empire was not afraid to delve into the gifts they learned. While the Baklunish Empire was expansionist they were not as ruthless as the Suel in their advances. Another race known for it's greatness was the Dwarves, whom were able to carve a nice chunk of land as their own. Where the humans of the world had tainted the gift of magic the dwarves looked to contain it's use. While many sages and historians will tell you otherwise the dwarven race did use their own form of magic. Their patron god Moradin laid within the fires of the world for several days before he learned such a gift and gave one of his most trusted advisors Dumathoin guidance over the gift. The Dwarves called this Rune Magic believed to have been originated by the Ancient Jotens. Those rare Dwarves who learned this gift were taught to use it wisely. Their was one of their number known as Diirinka, who used the gifts often and against the will of his people. Soon he would claim dominion over his clan. The dwarves had lost some land to the human races. Many claimed it was the humans mastery of magic which had given them the edge. Diirinka was determined to show this feeble race the true power of the dwarven race. In a display of magical might Diirinka and his clan began to claim back some of the lost lands. But all was not well with the dwarves. Diirinka in his quest for power had been excessively using his magics and injured many dwarven warriors in his pursuit of the human infidels. The Dwarven lords had enough of his blantant misuse of his power and exiled Diirinka from all Dwarven lands. Diirinka felt betrayed by his people and his clan suffered much after his exile. It was not long after that Diirinka had found a home amongst the humans he once sought to eradicate from his former home land. A very wise member of the society of the Scarlet ones (Early Scalet brotherhood). Sensed the power of this Diirinka and soon befriended him. It was a union not to be forgotten. Diirinka's new friend showed him the power his people commanded and unlike dwarven society his people encouraged it's use. Diirinka saw the advantages of this new magic and sought to make it his own. With the guidance of his friend Diirinka became a prized student , but the one thing that grew greater than his power was his hatred for the dwarven lords that exiled him for his homeland. It wasn't long before Diirinka got word to his old clan that he was coming to liberate them from their cruel task masters. He did just that attacking his former people and claiming leadership over his clan. His once former enemies the humans were now a part of his armies. Many of the dwarves he once fought for were now his unwilling subjects their former lords slain by his hand. Diirinka forgot the teaching of Dumathoin, and claimed to be a god himself teaching his clan the gifts he learned from the humans. All would not remain this way for long. When the Invoked Devastation and Colorless fire hit Oerth Diirinka found himself without his human armies to help him keep dominion over his kingdom. Soon afterward a rebellion brewed and Diirinka was overthrown. For his misuse of power Dumathoin himself sent Diirinka and his clan deep into UnderOerth were he sealed away the secrets Diirinka and his clan had misused. The time of no magic had begun. As per the teaching's of Dumathoin's priest (keeper of secrets) no Dwarf shall use magic again. For centuries this was the case. But when the Derro clan rose from their deep imprisonment Diirinka had risen to godhood. And now a few Dwarf's of an unknown cabal take up the teaching's of Dumathoin to thwart the Derro from claiming dominion over them once again. A second edition book called the Vikings has rules for Rune Casters. But I prefer to tweak the Geomancer a bit into a true rune casting feel. Also Derro should be allowed to become regular mages while dwarves are limited to Rune Casters, unless they wish to embrace the teaching's of Diirinka. Remember this is my twist do what you like hope this inspires everyone. after all The Derro replace the non-existant drow in my camaign. |
#7HalberkillSep 16, 2003 12:14:25 | Actually in the post-TSR gygax Gord books, it seems very likely that the derro ARE suel that have degenerated over the years. This may also explain why Rose Estes had Slerotin, a suel, be a dwarf wizard in her stories, she probably had access to some background info that had not seen publication, but of course got it slightly mixed up, as in the dwarves encountered in her stories probably should have been derro, and Slerotin was a human pre-derro. Halber |
#8Brom_BlackforgeSep 16, 2003 14:01:54 | I'm all for creative ways of embracing changes, but to some extent, it seems like trying to come up with an in-continuity reason why the Klingons in the Star Trek movies have those forehead ridges while the ones on the TV show didn't. |
#9zombiegleemaxSep 16, 2003 20:55:00 | Originally posted by Brom Blackforge Oh, that one's easy to answer. It's because OST was 'teh lamer' and TNG ROOLZ! :D |
#10Gnarley_WoodsmanSep 17, 2003 13:15:16 | TNG ROOLZ! I agree... TOS does have some nastalgia for me though..... |
#11zombiegleemaxSep 18, 2003 2:24:41 | "DA**IT JIM, our episodes are being dissed again" Dr. McCoy |
#12zombiegleemaxSep 18, 2003 4:14:39 | "It's acting, Jim. But not as we know it..." |