The source of magic looks like...? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

The source of magic looks like...?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
shugi
Sep 16, 2003 12:25:39 Another thread got me thinking about the source of magic on Krynn. Based on various references, Primal Sorcery seems to come from Krynn itself. Mysticism springs from the individual (the "power of the heart"). Clerics/rangers/druids receive their spells directly from their gods.

Wizardry (or High Sorcery if you will) is trickier. If it comes directly from Solinari/Lunitari/Nuitari, why do wizard renegades exist? Do S/L/N simply "channel" the magic to Krynn, and if so, does this exist in concert with Primal Sorcery (i.e. two types of magic based on the world itself) ?

In the Forgotten Realms, all magic (arcane, divine, and even godly) is tied to the Weave. Can Krynnish magic be described as something more tangible?
#2
zombiegleemax
Sep 16, 2003 12:35:33 I actually liked the Weave analogy when people were debating about the powers of Sorcery versus Wizardry. The three gods take the latent magic of te world and organize it, creating a latice work of ordered magical power. Between, under, around, and inside this latticework is the empty space, filled witht he Primal Energies of Magic that the Weave is crafted from. Gives me a good visual and makes sense in Cannon. But it probably won't happen comes it steps ont he toes of those FR milkheads.

The Gods of Magic put their Magic down into the world and then do not interfere. Wizardry is not like Divine Magic. Clerics ask their god for power, Wizards use the power that their gods have surrounded them with. If Sol, Lun,and Nui wanted to police renegade Mages and strip them of their power then they would not have created an organization to do it for them. Gods do not meddle int he affairs of mortals so quickly. Who has had their magic drained in the history of the world that i remember?

Only two people. Raistlin and Palin.

Takhisis blocked off Raistlin's magic, robbing him of it. The three gods did not do that.

Palin refused the magic. By actually being present and draining away his conduits to the magical weaves of High Sorcery and Primal Sorcery the gods stripped him of the Arcane. its not a regular occurence and its not as easy as lunitari snapping her fingers.
#3
Dragonhelm
Sep 16, 2003 12:41:39 Check my article on magic on the Nexus.

The Magic of Souls

L33t Angel - Nuitari was mentioned as having kept magic from a black robe either in Soulforge or in Brothers in Arms.
#4
frostdawn
Sep 16, 2003 12:42:41
Originally posted by Shugi

Wizardry (or High Sorcery if you will) is trickier. If it comes directly from Solinari/Lunitari/Nuitari, why do wizard renegades exist? Do S/L/N simply "channel" the magic to Krynn, and if so, does this exist in concert with Primal Sorcery (i.e. two types of magic based on the world itself) ?

Can Krynnish magic be described as something more tangible?

Divine magic for wizards is made available by the 3 moon gods, and always have. The 3 color robe heirarchy was a means to help temper the amount of power any one mortal could wield so they don't endanger themselves or the world around them. Wizards of the past created the wizard orders, not the gods. The wizard orders just keep each other in balance and check. Just the like how the gods are aligned. Krynn is all about balance between good and evil. The renegades existed back in the early ages of Krynn's history. In later ages, they existed because they didn't want to be controlled by the wizard orders. That, and to be classed as a particular wizard requires the test of high sorcery which could kill a character and at the very least scar them for the rest of their lives. Those 2 things alone are enough to make a wizard become a renegade. Either way, renegades and a red/black/white mage all draw their powers from the moon gods. Hope that helps a little.

#5
zombiegleemax
Sep 16, 2003 12:46:55 Ah yes, I remember that in Soulforge now. The Renegade lady with her fizzling spells. Well, *shrug* who knows then. I guess its as simple as turning off a light. All that lady did was counterfeit coins and get caught, and Nuitari stole her power. Guess that means noone is safe.

Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to retreat to my bomb shelter.
#6
Dragonhelm
Sep 16, 2003 13:35:36
Originally posted by Shugi
Another thread got me thinking about the source of magic on Krynn. Based on various references, Primal Sorcery seems to come from Krynn itself. Mysticism springs from the individual (the "power of the heart"). Clerics/rangers/druids receive their spells directly from their gods.

There's a couple of different ways of looking at magic in the world of Krynn, some of which are a bit conflicting. The appendix of Vanished Moon and the DLCS are the two major sources for info on magic in Krynn.

Mysticism is the Power of the Heart, but it is also the power of life. The way I view it is that all living things have a spiritual energy to them - a "divine spark", if you will. The divine energy of all living things forms sort of a living web of energy surrounding Krynn. Mystics are those who have a natural talent for using this spiritual energy. They look within themselves to find their own divine spark, which is tied to the living web of spiritual energy known as mysticism.

Clerical magic (which I call Devotion) is the bond between mortal and god. They too tap into divine energies, save that Devotion comes from the gods.

Think of mysticism as an inner faith, while Devotion is a leap of faith. While the sources of each type of divine magic is different, they all draw upon the same divine energies of the cosmos.

Wild Sorcery is said to be the leftover arcane energies that were used in the forging of the world. It is highly elemental in nature. In the Age of Dreams, this magic was seen as a danger, and so the gods of magic removed themselves from the heavens. Soon the moons Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari orbited Krynn.

High Sorcery is the arcane magic of the moon gods. The moon gods take the arcane power of Wild Sorcery, and purify it from the "taint" of Chaos. It is a more pure form of arcane magic, but it requires great skill and dedication to use. Unlike the other gods, the Moon Gods return the power of High Sorcery to the world of Krynn indiscriminately, thereby allowing for those who walk outside of the orders of High Sorcery to become renegades.

Both Wild Sorcery and Mysticism are too weak prior to the Age of Mortals to be used by the average person. However, the defeat of Chaos sent his energies into the world, which in turn amplified the powers of ambient magic.

Wizardry (or High Sorcery if you will) is trickier. If it comes directly from Solinari/Lunitari/Nuitari, why do wizard renegades exist? Do S/L/N simply "channel" the magic to Krynn, and if so, does this exist in concert with Primal Sorcery (i.e. two types of magic based on the world itself) ?

Renegades are those who use arcane magic outside of the Orders of High Sorcery, and who pose a threat by their usage of magic. Gnome wizards, for example, are localized to Mt. Nevermind, so they're not considered a threat.

Like I mention above, I believe that the moon gods indiscriminately give arcane energy to the world.

Think of it like a glass of water, where the water is magic. Most gods give it to you one drop at a time, on an as needed basis. You are dependent upon that god for the magic. The moon gods give you the entire glass, where you can take what you need, when you need.

In the Forgotten Realms, all magic (arcane, divine, and even godly) is tied to the Weave. Can Krynnish magic be described as something more tangible?

I think the Four Powers model in Vanished Moon works okay. I'm not sure if we can make a more tangible design or not. I'll think about it.
#7
darthsylver
Sep 16, 2003 21:36:27 This is how I see the magic. You two types power from the gods and power from the world (earth, air, even the very people of the world).

Then you have two types of people, those who for some reason have a close connection to a power source, and those who do not.

Bard, a person who develops a close connection to the power of the world (specifically people)

Cleric, a person who is either born with-or develops a close connection with one of the gods.

Druid, a person who has a close connection with the power of the world.

Mystic, a person who develops a close connection to the power of the world (specifically themselves and the people around them).

Paladin, a person who develops a close connection with one of the gods.

Ranger, a person who develops a close connection with the power of the world.

Sorceror (3.5) a person born with a close connection to the power of the world.

Sorceror (5th age) a person who develops a close connection with the power of the world.

Wizard, a person who develops a close connection to the power of the world.

Now my theory about magic in krynn. All magic originally came from the gods. This enables all gods to grant spells and stuff.

The three gods of magic infused the world with their magic (in short gave up the power to grant spells, this explains why there is no clerics to the gods of magic). The gods however still maintain a connection to the power of the world, which enables them to suppress someone's ability to use this magic. This also would help explain the tides of arcane magic with the changing of the moons.

Now should someone ever learn how to use the power of all three of the gods of magic, then that person would become truly powerful (as evidenced by raistlin, and perhaps the scions). The gods of magic did not forsee and so the scions were allowed to rise. When it became evident, (the havoc created by the earth swallowing the dragons) the gods guided the scions into hiding and helped to establish the orders of magic. They also laid down some laws and regulations to help insure this did not happen again. Which is where we get the WoHS.

Now how to explain what raistlin did, simple, he used the gods own rules against them until the right time. He began by learning the rules of solinari, then lunitari and finally nuitari. After this he understood how the gods power worked and in short how to strip the power from gods. Fortunately for everyone he changed his mind.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shugi Sep 16, 2003 12:25:39	Another thread got me thinking about the source of magic on Krynn. Based on various references, Primal Sorcery seems to come from Krynn itself. Mysticism springs from the individual (the "power of the heart"). Clerics/rangers/druids receive their spells directly from their gods. Wizardry (or High Sorcery if you will) is trickier. If it comes directly from Solinari/Lunitari/Nuitari, why do wizard renegades exist? Do S/L/N simply "channel" the magic to Krynn, and if so, does this exist in concert with Primal Sorcery (i.e. two types of magic based on the world itself) ? In the Forgotten Realms, all magic (arcane, divine, and even godly) is tied to the Weave. Can Krynnish magic be described as something more tangible?
#2 zombiegleemax Sep 16, 2003 12:35:33	I actually liked the Weave analogy when people were debating about the powers of Sorcery versus Wizardry. The three gods take the latent magic of te world and organize it, creating a latice work of ordered magical power. Between, under, around, and inside this latticework is the empty space, filled witht he Primal Energies of Magic that the Weave is crafted from. Gives me a good visual and makes sense in Cannon. But it probably won't happen comes it steps ont he toes of those FR milkheads. The Gods of Magic put their Magic down into the world and then do not interfere. Wizardry is not like Divine Magic. Clerics ask their god for power, Wizards use the power that their gods have surrounded them with. If Sol, Lun,and Nui wanted to police renegade Mages and strip them of their power then they would not have created an organization to do it for them. Gods do not meddle int he affairs of mortals so quickly. Who has had their magic drained in the history of the world that i remember? Only two people. Raistlin and Palin. Takhisis blocked off Raistlin's magic, robbing him of it. The three gods did not do that. Palin refused the magic. By actually being present and draining away his conduits to the magical weaves of High Sorcery and Primal Sorcery the gods stripped him of the Arcane. its not a regular occurence and its not as easy as lunitari snapping her fingers.
#3 Dragonhelm Sep 16, 2003 12:41:39	Check my article on magic on the Nexus. The Magic of Souls L33t Angel - Nuitari was mentioned as having kept magic from a black robe either in Soulforge or in Brothers in Arms.
#4 frostdawn Sep 16, 2003 12:42:41	Originally posted by Shugi Wizardry (or High Sorcery if you will) is trickier. If it comes directly from Solinari/Lunitari/Nuitari, why do wizard renegades exist? Do S/L/N simply "channel" the magic to Krynn, and if so, does this exist in concert with Primal Sorcery (i.e. two types of magic based on the world itself) ? Can Krynnish magic be described as something more tangible? Divine magic for wizards is made available by the 3 moon gods, and always have. The 3 color robe heirarchy was a means to help temper the amount of power any one mortal could wield so they don't endanger themselves or the world around them. Wizards of the past created the wizard orders, not the gods. The wizard orders just keep each other in balance and check. Just the like how the gods are aligned. Krynn is all about balance between good and evil. The renegades existed back in the early ages of Krynn's history. In later ages, they existed because they didn't want to be controlled by the wizard orders. That, and to be classed as a particular wizard requires the test of high sorcery which could kill a character and at the very least scar them for the rest of their lives. Those 2 things alone are enough to make a wizard become a renegade. Either way, renegades and a red/black/white mage all draw their powers from the moon gods. Hope that helps a little.
#5 zombiegleemax Sep 16, 2003 12:46:55	Ah yes, I remember that in Soulforge now. The Renegade lady with her fizzling spells. Well, shrug who knows then. I guess its as simple as turning off a light. All that lady did was counterfeit coins and get caught, and Nuitari stole her power. Guess that means noone is safe. Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to retreat to my bomb shelter.
#6 Dragonhelm Sep 16, 2003 13:35:36	Originally posted by Shugi Another thread got me thinking about the source of magic on Krynn. Based on various references, Primal Sorcery seems to come from Krynn itself. Mysticism springs from the individual (the "power of the heart"). Clerics/rangers/druids receive their spells directly from their gods. There's a couple of different ways of looking at magic in the world of Krynn, some of which are a bit conflicting. The appendix of Vanished Moon and the DLCS are the two major sources for info on magic in Krynn. Mysticism is the Power of the Heart, but it is also the power of life. The way I view it is that all living things have a spiritual energy to them - a "divine spark", if you will. The divine energy of all living things forms sort of a living web of energy surrounding Krynn. Mystics are those who have a natural talent for using this spiritual energy. They look within themselves to find their own divine spark, which is tied to the living web of spiritual energy known as mysticism. Clerical magic (which I call Devotion) is the bond between mortal and god. They too tap into divine energies, save that Devotion comes from the gods. Think of mysticism as an inner faith, while Devotion is a leap of faith. While the sources of each type of divine magic is different, they all draw upon the same divine energies of the cosmos. Wild Sorcery is said to be the leftover arcane energies that were used in the forging of the world. It is highly elemental in nature. In the Age of Dreams, this magic was seen as a danger, and so the gods of magic removed themselves from the heavens. Soon the moons Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari orbited Krynn. High Sorcery is the arcane magic of the moon gods. The moon gods take the arcane power of Wild Sorcery, and purify it from the "taint" of Chaos. It is a more pure form of arcane magic, but it requires great skill and dedication to use. Unlike the other gods, the Moon Gods return the power of High Sorcery to the world of Krynn indiscriminately, thereby allowing for those who walk outside of the orders of High Sorcery to become renegades. Both Wild Sorcery and Mysticism are too weak prior to the Age of Mortals to be used by the average person. However, the defeat of Chaos sent his energies into the world, which in turn amplified the powers of ambient magic. Wizardry (or High Sorcery if you will) is trickier. If it comes directly from Solinari/Lunitari/Nuitari, why do wizard renegades exist? Do S/L/N simply "channel" the magic to Krynn, and if so, does this exist in concert with Primal Sorcery (i.e. two types of magic based on the world itself) ? Renegades are those who use arcane magic outside of the Orders of High Sorcery, and who pose a threat by their usage of magic. Gnome wizards, for example, are localized to Mt. Nevermind, so they're not considered a threat. Like I mention above, I believe that the moon gods indiscriminately give arcane energy to the world. Think of it like a glass of water, where the water is magic. Most gods give it to you one drop at a time, on an as needed basis. You are dependent upon that god for the magic. The moon gods give you the entire glass, where you can take what you need, when you need. In the Forgotten Realms, all magic (arcane, divine, and even godly) is tied to the Weave. Can Krynnish magic be described as something more tangible? I think the Four Powers model in Vanished Moon works okay. I'm not sure if we can make a more tangible design or not. I'll think about it.
#7 darthsylver Sep 16, 2003 21:36:27	This is how I see the magic. You two types power from the gods and power from the world (earth, air, even the very people of the world). Then you have two types of people, those who for some reason have a close connection to a power source, and those who do not. Bard, a person who develops a close connection to the power of the world (specifically people) Cleric, a person who is either born with-or develops a close connection with one of the gods. Druid, a person who has a close connection with the power of the world. Mystic, a person who develops a close connection to the power of the world (specifically themselves and the people around them). Paladin, a person who develops a close connection with one of the gods. Ranger, a person who develops a close connection with the power of the world. Sorceror (3.5) a person born with a close connection to the power of the world. Sorceror (5th age) a person who develops a close connection with the power of the world. Wizard, a person who develops a close connection to the power of the world. Now my theory about magic in krynn. All magic originally came from the gods. This enables all gods to grant spells and stuff. The three gods of magic infused the world with their magic (in short gave up the power to grant spells, this explains why there is no clerics to the gods of magic). The gods however still maintain a connection to the power of the world, which enables them to suppress someone's ability to use this magic. This also would help explain the tides of arcane magic with the changing of the moons. Now should someone ever learn how to use the power of all three of the gods of magic, then that person would become truly powerful (as evidenced by raistlin, and perhaps the scions). The gods of magic did not forsee and so the scions were allowed to rise. When it became evident, (the havoc created by the earth swallowing the dragons) the gods guided the scions into hiding and helped to establish the orders of magic. They also laid down some laws and regulations to help insure this did not happen again. Which is where we get the WoHS. Now how to explain what raistlin did, simple, he used the gods own rules against them until the right time. He began by learning the rules of solinari, then lunitari and finally nuitari. After this he understood how the gods power worked and in short how to strip the power from gods. Fortunately for everyone he changed his mind.