If you take a look on the borders of Silvanesti in pre-cataclysmic times, there are two remarkable things:
The region later known as Khur and – to a certain degree – Balifor are well within the Silvanesti borders.
Prior to the Kinslayer War the presumably grassy plains between the forest of Qualinesti and Silvanesti are as well within the borders of Silvanesti.
In short, there were large regions of Silvanesti which weren’t forested and inhabited by human tribes.
Or weren’t they?
From the ancient Khur, nothing is confirmed. In the Atlas it’s marked already as desert. On the other hand in one of the Warrior Series about Pirvan (I think „Knight of the Rose“)a full scale siege takes place in the borderlands between Silvanesti and Istar. I think to remember that the region was described as wooded nonetheless even if a bit more like a Savannah.
So, was Khur more of a backward province partially granted to human settlers accepting elven supremacy, an independant state of loosely confederated human tribes and settlements under the rule and protection of Silvanesti or a totally independant country which was counted as Silvanesti land for historical reasons only?
And second, the later plains of dust. Once Silvanesti lands (probably infiltrated by human tribes who didn’t threatened the rule of the elves till the time of the advancing Ergoth), then in times prior to the Cataclysm with Istar risen to power marked as a part of Solamnia. Therefore one can deduce that it must have been ergothian in the times after the Kinslayer wars. But in „The Odyssey of Gilthanas“ it’s said that there existed a plains barbarian kingdom of Kharolis, named after the first queen of these lands ruled matrilinear instead of patrilinear Ergoth, with Tarsis as an important city and even there own bickerings with istarian dominance rising and contesting the female leadership.
So was Kharolis an integral part of Ergoth and later or Solamnia, developed from the tribes as independant and only joining Solamnia as a confederated ally, or a kingdom under the supremacy of Ergoth and later under the formal rule of Solamnia, guarding a certain degree of independance?
Opinions?
M’s Claw
Originally posted by Morgion's Claw
Silvanesti and Kharolis
If you take a look on the borders of Silvanesti in pre-cataclysmic times, there are two remarkable things:
The region later known as Khur and – to a certain degree – Balifor are well within the Silvanesti borders.
Prior to the Kinslayer War the presumably grassy plains between the forest of Qualinesti and Silvanesti are as well within the borders of Silvanesti.
In short, there were large regions of Silvanesti which weren’t forested and inhabited by human tribes.
Or weren’t they?
From the ancient Khur, nothing is confirmed. In the Atlas it’s marked already as desert. On the other hand in one of the Warrior Series about Pirvan (I think „Knight of the Rose“)a full scale siege takes place in the borderlands between Silvanesti and Istar. I think to remember that the region was described as wooded nonetheless even if a bit more like a Savannah.
So, was Khur more of a backward province partially granted to human settlers accepting elven supremacy, an independant state of loosely confederated human tribes and settlements under the rule and protection of Silvanesti or a totally independant country which was counted as Silvanesti land for historical reasons only?
And second, the later plains of dust. Once Silvanesti lands (probably infiltrated by human tribes who didn’t threatened the rule of the elves till the time of the advancing Ergoth), then in times prior to the Cataclysm with Istar risen to power marked as a part of Solamnia. Therefore one can deduce that it must have been ergothian in the times after the Kinslayer wars. But in „The Odyssey of Gilthanas“ it’s said that there existed a plains barbarian kingdom of Kharolis, named after the first queen of these lands ruled matrilinear instead of patrilinear Ergoth, with Tarsis as an important city and even there own bickerings with istarian dominance rising and contesting the female leadership.
So was Kharolis an integral part of Ergoth and later or Solamnia, developed from the tribes as independant and only joining Solamnia as a confederated ally, or a kingdom under the supremacy of Ergoth and later under the formal rule of Solamnia, guarding a certain degree of independance?
Opinions?
M’s Claw
Wow....
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Wow....
Baron, why did you see the need to quote the entirety of Morgion's post and just add a one-word comment? That's neither helpful nor considerate. Given that Morgion's post was immediately before yours, you could have just posted "Wow" as a follow-up without any quoting at all and had the same effect.
Quoting should be either kept to a minimum or avoided completely on forums such as these. On newsgroups it's a different matter, given that folks get the posts by email much of the time. Here, if you quote the whole message it just adds forum clutter.
Cheers,
Cam
First, there are open questions then there might be major facts I didn't took into account etc.
Finally, there could also be someone with an altogether alternative explanation or theory...
I just feel a little at loss with three postings I deem interesting and no one even giving a try
So come on! Comment!
M's C
Originally posted by Morgion's Claw
Silvanesti and Kharolis
If you take a look on the borders of Silvanesti in pre-cataclysmic times, there are two remarkable things:
Ok well the first question I would have is which Map are you looking at to determine where the borders actually are.
(Nevermind, the further I read I see you are using the Atlas.)
The region later known as Khur and – to a certain degree – Balifor are well within the Silvanesti borders.
OK, I am looking at the map from DLA and the map from the novel "Chosen of the Gods" and both show that the desert region to the north of Balifor belongs to Istar and the region that would become the Khurish nation and the forests of Balifor definately belong to Silvanesti.
Prior to the Kinslayer War the presumably grassy plains between the forest of Qualinesti and Silvanesti are as well within the borders of Silvanesti.
Yes, which is why Balif and his troops are patrolling that region.
In short, there were large regions of Silvanesti which weren’t forested and inhabited by human tribes.
Or weren’t they?
From the ancient Khur, nothing is confirmed. In the Atlas it’s marked already as desert. On the other hand in one of the Warrior Series about Pirvan (I think „Knight of the Rose“)a full scale siege takes place in the borderlands between Silvanesti and Istar. I think to remember that the region was described as wooded nonetheless even if a bit more like a Savannah.
So, was Khur more of a backward province partially granted to human settlers accepting elven supremacy, an independant state of loosely confederated human tribes and settlements under the rule and protection of Silvanesti or a totally independant country which was counted as Silvanesti land for historical reasons only?
I would go with number three "a totally independant country which was counted as Silvanesti land for historical reasons only" and say that that the land was probably in dispute between Istar and Silvanesti. A number of sources say that their are ancient Istarian ruins under the sands of the Khurish deserts.
And second, the later plains of dust. Once Silvanesti lands (probably infiltrated by human tribes who didn’t threatened the rule of the elves till the time of the advancing Ergoth), then in times prior to the Cataclysm with Istar risen to power marked as a part of Solamnia. Therefore one can deduce that it must have been ergothian in the times after the Kinslayer wars.
But in „The Odyssey of Gilthanas“ it’s said that there existed a plains barbarian kingdom of Kharolis, named after the first queen of these lands ruled matrilinear instead of patrilinear Ergoth, with Tarsis as an important city and even there own bickerings with istarian dominance rising and contesting the female leadership.
So was Kharolis an integral part of Ergoth and later of Solamnia, developed from the tribes as independant and only joining Solamnia as a confederated ally, or a kingdom under the supremacy of Ergoth and later under the formal rule of Solamnia, guarding a certain degree of independance?
Opinions?
M’s Claw
Wow, that's a tougher one. I don't have as much info on that. If I had to take a guess I would'nt think it was an intregal part of Ergoth just because of their location. I would think they would be considered more of an ally and not under the direct rule of those counties. But that's just my guess. :D
Indeed those are the possibilities I like most as well...
If you like take a look at those two threads somehow connected with this one:
Lemish
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100886
Solamnic Rule PC
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100886
Greets to the Kender king
M's Claw
So was Kharolis an integral part of Ergoth and later or Solamnia, developed from the tribes as independant and only joining Solamnia as a confederated ally, or a kingdom under the supremacy of Ergoth and later under the formal rule of Solamnia, guarding a certain degree of independance?
First of all sorry for my poor english as english is not my first langage... (and this is my first post!!!)
In DLCS (under Kharolis entry in the fourth age), it is mentionned that Kharolis was under the ruling of Ergothan empire. Shortly After the first cataclysm the Kharolians revolted against the Ergothian and gained their independance.
I haven't my DLCS in front of me right now, but you're sure?
After the first cataclysm, there wasn't much left from the empire to rebel against...
End prior this event, there had been the Rose Rebellion of Vinas....resulting in a Solamnia reaching from Palanthas down to Icewall. Kharolis ceased to be ally/province/whatever from Ergoth from there on in any case.
My favorite theory is, that Kharolis started as a region under the rule of Silvanesti, being somewhat neglected and left uninhabited by the elves (who preferred the forested areas of later Wualinesti and Silvanesti). This region was "infiltrated" by human tribes (mostly plainsmen) who never contested elven supremacy. Perhaps even fleeing the encroaching Ergothian Empire.
After the Kinslayer War, the elven nations parted ways for good and with no connections between the realms, the elven had no use for the plains formerly having to be crossed to reach the other forested realm.
The humans there began forming their own realm.
With the Ergothian Empire being the overwhelming might, there may have been a full-fledged absorption of the Kharolian realm into the Empire, becoming nothing but another province, or - to which I tend more - an allied kingdom paying homage and swearing fealty to the emperor without loosing its independance (kind of Holy Roman Empire of German Nation and the kingdoms of Hungary and Poland under the dynasty of the ottons).
In the novel "The inheritance" it is mentioned that there were kings within the Empire and the emperor himself. Could be a hint, that the empire consissted of proper provinces with kingdoms around being integrated by feudal means (swearing loyalty and obedience to the Emperor).
Then came the Rose Rebellion resulting in the newly found nation of Solamnia, "the eastern provinces" of the Empire. This coincedes with the map P.C. found in the Atlas, showing Solamnia as stretching from Palanthas down to the region of the later Icewall Glacier.
As mentioned in "the odyssey of Gilthanas" there was - just prior to the First Cataclysm - a Kharolian realm ruled traditionally by (warrior)queens, a fact greatly bothering Istar, whose kingpriest cherished the women as being more home-and-hearth-oriented and not meddling in the ruling affairs.
Therefore being also only loosely allied with Solamnia, accepting the "overrule" of the solamnic king or whatever ruling body there was, and surely the protection of the knighthood.
This would be backed up by the non-existing connection between modern Solamnia and the Plains of Dust, non-imaginable if there'd be a common history of hundreds of years...
Well, I did it again
M's Claw
Then came the Rose Rebellion resulting in the newly found nation of Solamnia, "the eastern provinces" of the Empire. This coincedes with the map P.C. found in the Atlas, showing Solamnia as stretching from Palanthas down to the region of the later Icewall Glacier.
I looked in my good old TotL to check the Pre-cataclysm map of Ansalon and I noticed a difference between the Kharolis of Totl and the one of DLCS. The Pre-caclysm show Kharolis south of Solamnia in TotL (where Plains of Dust are now). From description given in DLCS, the Kharolis region seem situated south of Wayreth Forest from Alsip to Tarsis (i'm not even sure that Tarsis is part of Kharolis)
I think Kharolis was at first a colony of Ergoth and became a province of Ergoth prior to cataclysm. That province could have been ruled by a queen (as mentionned in OoG). It is mentionned in DLCS (again in fourth age Kharolis entry: page 263-264) that kharolians rebelled against "century-old ergothian families that had ruled over them"
First the historic nation of Kharolis depicted as a independant nation south of Solamnia (shame on me, it was never a part of Solamnia).
Ist capital was famous Tarsis and its lands are today the Plains of Dust or swallowed by Icewall Glacier.
Those regions were once part of the Silvanesti realm (pre-Kinslayer Wars). It’s their origin as a nation I was wondering in the first place.
Second, modern Kharolis, south/southwest of the kingdom of Thorbardin in the Kharolis-Mountains.
The latter is a very recent nation. If one looks at the maps in the Atlas, those parts were (even in the times of Istar) still nominally part of the Thorbardin-kingdom of the dwarves.
So, I’d assume, that with the Swordsheath Scroll and all the largest parts of this realm were already inhabited by humans (especially if you take in account, that Daltigoth was just over the bay) when the dwarves and Ergoth got mad at each other over mining rights, finally resulting in the said Scroll of peace. Afterwards, the humans still there with some new influx would stay – as before – under the rule of nobles and families from the Empire even if nominally part of the dwarven kingdom. Those „flat“ parts won’t have been settled by dwarves on a large scale.
So, there is no problem with the DLCS stating on 4th age Kharolis being a region where the people threw off the shackles of the ergothian dynasties and continued on their own.
Thak you, these comments helped me a lot
Regards
M’s Claw
Originally posted by Morgion's Claw
Ok, I revised the DLCS and TotL as well as the atlas...so in fact we have to make a difference between the two „Kharolis“:
First the historic nation of Kharolis depicted as a independant nation south of Solamnia (shame on me, it was never a part of Solamnia).
Ist capital was famous Tarsis and its lands are today the Plains of Dust or swallowed by Icewall Glacier.
Those regions were once part of the Silvanesti realm (pre-Kinslayer Wars). It’s their origin as a nation I was wondering in the first place.
Second, modern Kharolis, south/southwest of the kingdom of Thorbardin in the Kharolis-Mountains.
The latter is a very recent nation. If one looks at the maps in the Atlas, those parts were (even in the times of Istar) still nominally part of the Thorbardin-kingdom of the dwarves.
That is exactly what I did for my article in Tobril #1. I wrote up Kharolis' history from Cataclysm to present. The "modern" Kharolis came about when many followed a Prince out of the growing Plains of Dust and into Thorbardin lands south of Qualinesti. They had to pay the dwarves tribute in the form of agricultural goods, because the Thorbardin dwarves wanted a new supply of "surface" food after the Dwarfgate Wars estranged them from their Hill Dwarf kin.
Then diamonds were found, which changed everything...
Anyway, check out Tobril #1 at: www.dragonlance.com/tobril/
Yes, I remember your information on Kharolis and I like it very much (you also did some great and interesting posts earlier on the DL-L as I was happy to find out some days ago :-)
But what do you think of human settlers prior to the cataclysm? Like settling the lands from the coast as ergothian settlers? Its a long way (to tipperary, no) the Kharolis mountains, and as it seems, the dwarves never got that far away from them...
Surely the Cataclysm brought refugees from the new Plains of Dust, ancient Kharolis.
Concerning ancient Kharolis, as I had to revise prior postings, it seemed never to part of neither Ergoth nor Solamnia, but always a independant barbarian kingdom risen from abandoned silvanesti lands, with queens instead of kings and some hefty conflicts with Istar and Solamnia in the time just before the Cataclysm..
That's at last how I see things down there.
Regards
M's Claw
Originally posted by Morgion's Claw
But what do you think of human settlers prior to the cataclysm? Like settling the lands from the coast as ergothian settlers? Its a long way (to tipperary, no) the Kharolis mountains, and as it seems, the dwarves never got that far away from them...
Surely the Cataclysm brought refugees from the new Plains of Dust, ancient Kharolis.
I have lost track of my sources (since this article is a year old) but I do remember I used the novel Stormblade, and I know that I read the fact that it was dwarven lands in that area somewhere (perhaps in Dwarven Kingdoms of Krynn).
Mostly, though, it was all drawn up from looking at the "national borders" on the Totl Map. There was a political border drawn in the plains of dust around Tarsis. A rather sizeable one.
Then there was Kharolis, which was written down under Qualinesti. This obviously was to refer to the Kharolis mountains, but it could have also referred to a country. I chose the latter option, because I wasn't too keen on doing another Plains of Dust kingdom.
Yes, the Cataclysm brought refugees from ancient Kharolis, they followed the Prince out because all of their caribou herds were dying. I was working under the conceit that it was unsettled Tundra, because I didn't have room to describe a lengthy conquest in addition to all the other things that were going on.
If that stretches your suspension of disbelief too much, I would suggest that there are a few hill dwarf villages, and many goblin tribes that the Kharolians decimated.
[b]
Concerning ancient Kharolis, as I had to revise prior postings, it seemed never to part of neither Ergoth nor Solamnia, but always a independant barbarian kingdom risen from abandoned silvanesti lands, with queens instead of kings and some hefty conflicts with Istar and Solamnia in the time just before the Cataclysm..
Yep... I wonder if Karada has anything to do with it all? ;)
I know they had a Queen around the time of the Cataclysm, but I didn't realize that female sex was a requirement of succession. That could be another reason why Kharolis is lead by a "Grand Prince" now, instead of a King.
In addition, just because it was a prerequisite to the throne to be female doesn't have to say it's still like that. One could imagine that people took the cataclysm perhaps as a sign, that the kingpriest had been right and that there shouldn't be women on the top of the realm.
Those were perhaps the ones leaving the region whereas traditionalists of ancient kharolis were determined to stay in the ancestral plains..even if it meant to have serious problems simply to survive.
I remember this (somehow unhappy) novel "Murder in Tarsis". From it one could deduce, that besides the civilized humans in Tarsis, there developped a nomadic semi-barbaric culture of horsemen in the Plains. Those would be the "true" heirs of ancient Kharolis backed up by some other humans from Neraka or such lands bringing new human into the area after the Cataclysm.
greets
M's Claw