Racial characteristics - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Racial characteristics

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
banshee
Sep 17, 2003 22:51:22 I was looking at the issue of the Tobril, the latest one, which contains height charts and such. Excellent stuff....though I've always thought that elves should be taller....they should be like FR elves, as in the novels they are consistently described as being taller than humans. In addition, both Laurana (5'6") and Gilthanas (5'7" or something) as examples, were far taller than elves can be according to the DLCS or this issue of the Tobril.

Laurana was either a super-tall elven woman, which she isn't described as being, or the racial heights aren't consistent.

With regards to lifespan, I think the Irda should have a longer span, and should be somewhat taller. The ogres were described as immortal in the beginning, and the irda are the closest things there is to the original ogres, in some ways. In the story Raistlin's Daughter, Raistlin even comments that the Irda make the elves look short-lived in comparison.

Perhaps a span something like Middle-Aged (500), Old (750), Venerable (1000+), with a max of 1000 + 4d100 might be appropriate.

Banshee
#2
baron_the_curse
Sep 18, 2003 0:51:24 I completely agree with you regarding the elves. Porthios was described as being 5’10! While I don’t think that should be the standard for elves they should definitely be a little taller than describe in DLCS. As for the story you are referring I remember it well and many here will probably tell you that was just a Kender tale. Wait; as it turns out I believe it was. Raistlin claimed that event never happened so anything said in that story by him is null since it never occurred. Originally the Irda were listed to live up 550 + 5d10 years in Tales of the Lance, so the table in the Tobril #5 is accurate.
#3
zombiegleemax
Sep 18, 2003 16:09:00 Here's how I see it, Dragonlance has, in its long history (going for 20 years next year yay!), been plagued by inconsistencies. I've known this for a long time too but writing this article for the Tobril brought it all back. I had already written most of that for my Ansalonian Gazetteer back in February 2001 but by then there was no DLCS. WotC had just cancelled the setting so I was free to do a little personal tweaking of heights, ages, etc.

And to go on a minor rant, DL authors of previous products have seemed to me, on occasion, to be a little too quick to change something they didn't like; probably not dwelling too much on the consequences of the change on fans and their home games. I happen to believe there are some things that need changing but I rather err on the side of caution.

But now, DLCS is here. Even if there are things which I don't personally agree with (there always are, for example, I also believe elves should be a little taller). I purposedly chose not to contradict it. As I mention briefly in the article I based all the information for that article on the DLCS and AoM.

When such info was unavailable from those two sources I went back to 2E and even 1E Dragonlance products. My purpose was two-fold:

1. If fans wish to change something they don't agree on the DLCS they institute a house rule that covers every single product available or upcoming. But if the article contradicted the DLCS fans would probably have to institute yet another house rule just to change the Tobril article.

2. The Tobril article guidelines (which I've helped create) institute that articles should support, not replace, official material. So for instance, if you don't like how the WoS ended you'll never see an article on the Tobril detailing an alternate ending (sorry). That's what the Nexus (www.dl3e.com) is for--every single view of Krynn is accepted there.

Just trying to shed a little light on the matter. As always individual DMs (and players) can (should?) decide whether they'll change something, if anything. It's the ultimate freedom.
#4
zombiegleemax
Sep 18, 2003 17:41:14 Shouldn't half-elves live longer in DL? I'm pretty sure Tanis lived about 200+ years before dying in battle.
#5
iltharanos
Sep 19, 2003 1:48:21
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Here's how I see it, Dragonlance has, in its long history (going for 20 years next year yay!), been plagued by inconsistencies.

Oh yeah. The first book in the Elven Nations trilogy of novels describes Speaker of the Stars Sithel as being 1,500 years old, that time of an elf's life when his age is just beginning to show. His wife Nirakina is described as over 1,000 and not showing her age at all.

#6
The_White_Sorcerer
Sep 19, 2003 6:47:16
Originally posted by The Spellcasting Sorcerer
Shouldn't half-elves live longer in DL? I'm pretty sure Tanis lived about 200+ years before dying in battle.

Actually, Tanis was 134 years old when he died. He was 102 when the War of the Lance started.
#7
shugi
Sep 19, 2003 18:27:44 I'd like to see any novel refer to the actual height of elves. Even in Chronicles, Porthios and Solostaran are described as being very tall, but there's no comparison between elven height and human height. Are these references based on 1st & 2nd edition gaming products, or are we all assuming different things?
#8
banshee
Sep 20, 2003 20:44:18
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I completely agree with you regarding the elves. Porthios was described as being 5’10! While I don’t think that should be the standard for elves they should definitely be a little taller than describe in DLCS. As for the story you are referring I remember it well and many here will probably tell you that was just a Kender tale. Wait; as it turns out I believe it was. Raistlin claimed that event never happened so anything said in that story by him is null since it never occurred. Originally the Irda were listed to live up 550 + 5d10 years in Tales of the Lance, so the table in the Tobril #5 is accurate.

I will point out that if the Irda lifespan issue is not true, since it was in a story that turned out not to be true, why is it that the Valin, which was only ever introduced in that story, has become part of the Irda race? It never was in any of the RPG materials before, and the only basis for it was the story Raistlin's Daughter...

I think in fact, Irda live in small family groups of parents and children, having roughly 1 child every 25 years, I think it said back in 2nd Ed...

Banshee
#9
banshee
Sep 20, 2003 20:47:18
Originally posted by Shugi
I'd like to see any novel refer to the actual height of elves. Even in Chronicles, Porthios and Solostaran are described as being very tall, but there's no comparison between elven height and human height. Are these references based on 1st & 2nd edition gaming products, or are we all assuming different things?

Both Gilthanas and Laurana are over 5'6" in the RPG....and that's written in numerous places....even in Age of Mortals!

The story that refers to elves being taller than humans is the story in the 2nd Generation book wherein Gilthas is first introduced, and travels to Qualinesti, where he becomes King.

Unfortunately, I've got the book backed up in storage, so I can't reference a page number.

Banshee
#10
zombiegleemax
Sep 21, 2003 1:50:05
Originally posted by iltharanos
Oh yeah. The first book in the Elven Nations trilogy of novels describes Speaker of the Stars Sithel as being 1,500 years old, that time of an elf's life when his age is just beginning to show. His wife Nirakina is described as over 1,000 and not showing her age at all.

Yeah I was wondering this as well. Is this another case of an author making a mistake ?
#11
talinthas
Sep 21, 2003 13:37:11 not when you think about the fact that the first generation of elves were god touched. I tend to believe that those elves lived for thousands of years, with each progressivly mortal generation that followed losing more and more of that divine longevity. Sort of like the fall of the ogres, but on a less devastating level.
#12
ferratus
Sep 21, 2003 13:55:51 I've always thought Tal, that that could be the reason that the Silvanesti Elves are so obsessed with racial purity. They fear that the Ogres' fate could be theirs.
#13
iltharanos
Sep 21, 2003 22:09:23
Originally posted by Banshee
Both Gilthanas and Laurana are over 5'6" in the RPG....and that's written in numerous places....even in Age of Mortals!

The story that refers to elves being taller than humans is the story in the 2nd Generation book wherein Gilthas is first introduced, and travels to Qualinesti, where he becomes King.

Unfortunately, I've got the book backed up in storage, so I can't reference a page number.

Banshee

In Age of Mortals, Laurana is 5'6"

In the Tales of the Lance boxed set, the following heights for elves are given:

Serinda Elderwood: 5'9"
Dalamar: 5'9"
Laurana: 5'6"
Gilthanas: 5'8"

Then again, I don't recall any specific mentions of elven height in the novels ...
#14
zombiegleemax
Sep 21, 2003 23:19:44 I always believed that when Solostaran and Porthois were described as being tall it compared to them to other elves and not to the human norms.

Arandur
#15
banshee
Sep 22, 2003 20:48:08
Originally posted by Arandur
I always believed that when Solostaran and Porthois were described as being tall it compared to them to other elves and not to the human norms.

Arandur

No.....the elves were described specifically as being taller Wish I had the book around to quote a page number...

Banshee
#16
shugi
Sep 23, 2003 14:34:54
Originally posted by Banshee
No.....the elves were described specifically as being taller Wish I had the book around to quote a page number...

Banshee

There isn't such a page in Chronicles, but I can't speak for the gaming material (or Elven Nations for that matter). In the Annotated Chronicles, Porthios is described as an "unusually tall and powerfully built" elf (p. 333). Solostaran is described as "taller even than his son Porthios" (p. 342).

I'd still like to know what products list elves as being taller than humans - right now it looks like everyone's guessing.
#17
banshee
Sep 23, 2003 16:46:25 I'm not guessing.....it's the story in which Gilthas originally goes to Qualinesti and assumes the throne.

It mentions that his human blood means he's shorter than other elves.

It's in the Dragonlance: Second Generation book. I just can't access the book right now, as it's in storage....but I remember the passage.

Banshee
#18
shugi
Sep 24, 2003 10:34:48 I know what you're saying now. The problem is that if 2nd Gen does say that, the logical assumption (elves taller than humans) can't be given as truth. After all...

Goblins (product of elves & ogres) = shorter than both.
Gully dwarves (product of dwarves & humans, or dwarves & gnomes - depending on the source) = shorter than both. Well, shorter than gnomes according to the DLCS - again, AFAIK the novels don't really state the fact either way.

That's definitely the kind of information I'm looking for, though. I'll check it out when I get the chance. Thanks again for the reference, Banshee!
#19
banshee
Sep 24, 2003 20:41:45 Well Shugi, if you find the reference, let me know. I'm pretty sure of what I saw....but I'd be interested in confirmation..

Banshee
#20
iltharanos
Sep 25, 2003 1:41:45
Originally posted by Shugi
I know what you're saying now. The problem is that if 2nd Gen does say that, the logical assumption (elves taller than humans) can't be given as truth. After all...

Goblins (product of elves & ogres) = shorter than both.
Gully dwarves (product of dwarves & humans, or dwarves & gnomes - depending on the source) = shorter than both. Well, shorter than gnomes according to the DLCS - again, AFAIK the novels don't really state the fact either way.

That's definitely the kind of information I'm looking for, though. I'll check it out when I get the chance. Thanks again for the reference, Banshee!

In what source does it say that goblins are the product of a union of elves and ogres? I have never encountered any such reference in any of the Dragonlance books I possess ...
#21
shugi
Sep 25, 2003 3:06:17 Banshee: I found the reference (in the story The Sacrifice). When Gilthas is introduced he is described as being tall. When he has the sun medallion, it's mentioned that he'll always be shorter than other elves because of his human heritage.

Iltharanos: Unfortunately I can't find the reference. TotL does mention that the goblins (and bugbears and hobgoblins) were created from ogres by the Greygem.
#22
iltharanos
Sep 26, 2003 0:27:58
Originally posted by Shugi

Iltharanos: Unfortunately I can't find the reference. TotL does mention that the goblins (and bugbears and hobgoblins) were created from ogres by the Greygem.

Yes, but I always took that passage to mean that some ogres were warped by the Greygem and became goblins, in much the same way land elves were warped and turned into sea elves.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 banshee Sep 17, 2003 22:51:22	I was looking at the issue of the Tobril, the latest one, which contains height charts and such. Excellent stuff....though I've always thought that elves should be taller....they should be like FR elves, as in the novels they are consistently described as being taller than humans. In addition, both Laurana (5'6") and Gilthanas (5'7" or something) as examples, were far taller than elves can be according to the DLCS or this issue of the Tobril. Laurana was either a super-tall elven woman, which she isn't described as being, or the racial heights aren't consistent. With regards to lifespan, I think the Irda should have a longer span, and should be somewhat taller. The ogres were described as immortal in the beginning, and the irda are the closest things there is to the original ogres, in some ways. In the story Raistlin's Daughter, Raistlin even comments that the Irda make the elves look short-lived in comparison. Perhaps a span something like Middle-Aged (500), Old (750), Venerable (1000+), with a max of 1000 + 4d100 might be appropriate. Banshee
#2 baron_the_curse Sep 18, 2003 0:51:24	I completely agree with you regarding the elves. Porthios was described as being 5’10! While I don’t think that should be the standard for elves they should definitely be a little taller than describe in DLCS. As for the story you are referring I remember it well and many here will probably tell you that was just a Kender tale. Wait; as it turns out I believe it was. Raistlin claimed that event never happened so anything said in that story by him is null since it never occurred. Originally the Irda were listed to live up 550 + 5d10 years in Tales of the Lance, so the table in the Tobril #5 is accurate.
#3 zombiegleemax Sep 18, 2003 16:09:00	Here's how I see it, Dragonlance has, in its long history (going for 20 years next year yay!), been plagued by inconsistencies. I've known this for a long time too but writing this article for the Tobril brought it all back. I had already written most of that for my Ansalonian Gazetteer back in February 2001 but by then there was no DLCS. WotC had just cancelled the setting so I was free to do a little personal tweaking of heights, ages, etc. And to go on a minor rant, DL authors of previous products have seemed to me, on occasion, to be a little too quick to change something they didn't like; probably not dwelling too much on the consequences of the change on fans and their home games. I happen to believe there are some things that need changing but I rather err on the side of caution. But now, DLCS is here. Even if there are things which I don't personally agree with (there always are, for example, I also believe elves should be a little taller). I purposedly chose not to contradict it. As I mention briefly in the article I based all the information for that article on the DLCS and AoM. When such info was unavailable from those two sources I went back to 2E and even 1E Dragonlance products. My purpose was two-fold: 1. If fans wish to change something they don't agree on the DLCS they institute a house rule that covers every single product available or upcoming. But if the article contradicted the DLCS fans would probably have to institute yet another house rule just to change the Tobril article. 2. The Tobril article guidelines (which I've helped create) institute that articles should support, not replace, official material. So for instance, if you don't like how the WoS ended you'll never see an article on the Tobril detailing an alternate ending (sorry). That's what the Nexus (www.dl3e.com) is for--every single view of Krynn is accepted there. Just trying to shed a little light on the matter. As always individual DMs (and players) can (should?) decide whether they'll change something, if anything. It's the ultimate freedom.
#4 zombiegleemax Sep 18, 2003 17:41:14	Shouldn't half-elves live longer in DL? I'm pretty sure Tanis lived about 200+ years before dying in battle.
#5 iltharanos Sep 19, 2003 1:48:21	Originally posted by Richard Connery Here's how I see it, Dragonlance has, in its long history (going for 20 years next year yay!), been plagued by inconsistencies. Oh yeah. The first book in the Elven Nations trilogy of novels describes Speaker of the Stars Sithel as being 1,500 years old, that time of an elf's life when his age is just beginning to show. His wife Nirakina is described as over 1,000 and not showing her age at all.
#6 The_White_Sorcerer Sep 19, 2003 6:47:16	Originally posted by The Spellcasting Sorcerer Shouldn't half-elves live longer in DL? I'm pretty sure Tanis lived about 200+ years before dying in battle. Actually, Tanis was 134 years old when he died. He was 102 when the War of the Lance started.
#7 shugi Sep 19, 2003 18:27:44	I'd like to see any novel refer to the actual height of elves. Even in Chronicles, Porthios and Solostaran are described as being very tall, but there's no comparison between elven height and human height. Are these references based on 1st & 2nd edition gaming products, or are we all assuming different things?
#8 banshee Sep 20, 2003 20:44:18	Originally posted by Baron the Curse I completely agree with you regarding the elves. Porthios was described as being 5’10! While I don’t think that should be the standard for elves they should definitely be a little taller than describe in DLCS. As for the story you are referring I remember it well and many here will probably tell you that was just a Kender tale. Wait; as it turns out I believe it was. Raistlin claimed that event never happened so anything said in that story by him is null since it never occurred. Originally the Irda were listed to live up 550 + 5d10 years in Tales of the Lance, so the table in the Tobril #5 is accurate. I will point out that if the Irda lifespan issue is not true, since it was in a story that turned out not to be true, why is it that the Valin, which was only ever introduced in that story, has become part of the Irda race? It never was in any of the RPG materials before, and the only basis for it was the story Raistlin's Daughter... I think in fact, Irda live in small family groups of parents and children, having roughly 1 child every 25 years, I think it said back in 2nd Ed... Banshee
#9 banshee Sep 20, 2003 20:47:18	Originally posted by Shugi I'd like to see any novel refer to the actual height of elves. Even in Chronicles, Porthios and Solostaran are described as being very tall, but there's no comparison between elven height and human height. Are these references based on 1st & 2nd edition gaming products, or are we all assuming different things? Both Gilthanas and Laurana are over 5'6" in the RPG....and that's written in numerous places....even in Age of Mortals! The story that refers to elves being taller than humans is the story in the 2nd Generation book wherein Gilthas is first introduced, and travels to Qualinesti, where he becomes King. Unfortunately, I've got the book backed up in storage, so I can't reference a page number. Banshee
#10 zombiegleemax Sep 21, 2003 1:50:05	Originally posted by iltharanos Oh yeah. The first book in the Elven Nations trilogy of novels describes Speaker of the Stars Sithel as being 1,500 years old, that time of an elf's life when his age is just beginning to show. His wife Nirakina is described as over 1,000 and not showing her age at all. Yeah I was wondering this as well. Is this another case of an author making a mistake ?
#11 talinthas Sep 21, 2003 13:37:11	not when you think about the fact that the first generation of elves were god touched. I tend to believe that those elves lived for thousands of years, with each progressivly mortal generation that followed losing more and more of that divine longevity. Sort of like the fall of the ogres, but on a less devastating level.
#12 ferratus Sep 21, 2003 13:55:51	I've always thought Tal, that that could be the reason that the Silvanesti Elves are so obsessed with racial purity. They fear that the Ogres' fate could be theirs.
#13 iltharanos Sep 21, 2003 22:09:23	Originally posted by Banshee Both Gilthanas and Laurana are over 5'6" in the RPG....and that's written in numerous places....even in Age of Mortals! The story that refers to elves being taller than humans is the story in the 2nd Generation book wherein Gilthas is first introduced, and travels to Qualinesti, where he becomes King. Unfortunately, I've got the book backed up in storage, so I can't reference a page number. Banshee In Age of Mortals, Laurana is 5'6" In the Tales of the Lance boxed set, the following heights for elves are given: Serinda Elderwood: 5'9" Dalamar: 5'9" Laurana: 5'6" Gilthanas: 5'8" Then again, I don't recall any specific mentions of elven height in the novels ...
#14 zombiegleemax Sep 21, 2003 23:19:44	I always believed that when Solostaran and Porthois were described as being tall it compared to them to other elves and not to the human norms. Arandur
#15 banshee Sep 22, 2003 20:48:08	Originally posted by Arandur I always believed that when Solostaran and Porthois were described as being tall it compared to them to other elves and not to the human norms. Arandur No.....the elves were described specifically as being taller Wish I had the book around to quote a page number... Banshee
#16 shugi Sep 23, 2003 14:34:54	Originally posted by Banshee No.....the elves were described specifically as being taller Wish I had the book around to quote a page number... Banshee There isn't such a page in Chronicles, but I can't speak for the gaming material (or Elven Nations for that matter). In the Annotated Chronicles, Porthios is described as an "unusually tall and powerfully built" elf (p. 333). Solostaran is described as "taller even than his son Porthios" (p. 342). I'd still like to know what products list elves as being taller than humans - right now it looks like everyone's guessing.
#17 banshee Sep 23, 2003 16:46:25	I'm not guessing.....it's the story in which Gilthas originally goes to Qualinesti and assumes the throne. It mentions that his human blood means he's shorter than other elves. It's in the Dragonlance: Second Generation book. I just can't access the book right now, as it's in storage....but I remember the passage. Banshee
#18 shugi Sep 24, 2003 10:34:48	I know what you're saying now. The problem is that if 2nd Gen does say that, the logical assumption (elves taller than humans) can't be given as truth. After all... Goblins (product of elves & ogres) = shorter than both. Gully dwarves (product of dwarves & humans, or dwarves & gnomes - depending on the source) = shorter than both. Well, shorter than gnomes according to the DLCS - again, AFAIK the novels don't really state the fact either way. That's definitely the kind of information I'm looking for, though. I'll check it out when I get the chance. Thanks again for the reference, Banshee!
#19 banshee Sep 24, 2003 20:41:45	Well Shugi, if you find the reference, let me know. I'm pretty sure of what I saw....but I'd be interested in confirmation.. Banshee
#20 iltharanos Sep 25, 2003 1:41:45	Originally posted by Shugi I know what you're saying now. The problem is that if 2nd Gen does say that, the logical assumption (elves taller than humans) can't be given as truth. After all... Goblins (product of elves & ogres) = shorter than both. Gully dwarves (product of dwarves & humans, or dwarves & gnomes - depending on the source) = shorter than both. Well, shorter than gnomes according to the DLCS - again, AFAIK the novels don't really state the fact either way. That's definitely the kind of information I'm looking for, though. I'll check it out when I get the chance. Thanks again for the reference, Banshee! In what source does it say that goblins are the product of a union of elves and ogres? I have never encountered any such reference in any of the Dragonlance books I possess ...
#21 shugi Sep 25, 2003 3:06:17	Banshee: I found the reference (in the story The Sacrifice). When Gilthas is introduced he is described as being tall. When he has the sun medallion, it's mentioned that he'll always be shorter than other elves because of his human heritage. Iltharanos: Unfortunately I can't find the reference. TotL does mention that the goblins (and bugbears and hobgoblins) were created from ogres by the Greygem.
#22 iltharanos Sep 26, 2003 0:27:58	Originally posted by Shugi Iltharanos: Unfortunately I can't find the reference. TotL does mention that the goblins (and bugbears and hobgoblins) were created from ogres by the Greygem. Yes, but I always took that passage to mean that some ogres were warped by the Greygem and became goblins, in much the same way land elves were warped and turned into sea elves.