I'm right now trying to work out the dynamics and the flavor of a PrC that I got the idea for from my local RPGs store. One guy working there once told me a friend of is had some DS material, mainly B&W drawings, in which one could see a man pulling energy for spells from other men.
In retrospective I think he had seen the drawing in Dragon Kings for the spell Vampiric Youthfulness.
But I got stuck with it ever since. Lately the image as mingled with Paxitus's Tale, from Earth, Air, Fire and Water: what would a defiler do if confronted with a burnt jungle and angry villagers?
He would gesture his lackeys to bring him bound slaves kept for such a time. He would defile them like powerfull undeads sometimes can, and blast the ambitious lot to join the cinders of their beloved trees.
A PrC that allows one to pull energy from animal life like a dragon can (dragon magic rules are currently unpenned), but all it does is allow you to do more damage to people as you cast magic and also to get energy in terrain where there is none. Some slaves are prepared in an arcane ceremony to make their life force availlable to your tapping. You hurt others but suck those dry. Just like the Defile Life (Su) ability from TotDL, but with a twist. Brocken down into three class abilities covering five levels.
A nasty conterpart to the Arch Defiler PrC.
Note: Gives no access to psionic enchantments, just like the undead ability dosen't.
In Whispers of the Storm: Cerulean
In City-State of Draj: Arrow Knight, Eagle Knight, Jaguar Knight, King's Defiler & Moon Priest
Prophecy played a fairly decent sized role in the Prism Pentad. Once that was introduced, it got me thinking of other 'divining' aspects that I thought were left untouched. Soothsayers and Oracles (pun to Jon) always seemed like they would fit on Athas. Coupling this idea with the spirits of the planet and you could easily develope PrCs with a somwhat shamantic feal to them.
Another idea that I always liked was that of dreams. This figured heavily in the adventure Black Spine where a gith leader manipulated the PCs through their dreams. Creating a PrC or two based upon the creation and manipulation of dream states would be rather interesting. The only mechanical references I can think of are from an old Dragon mag. I'll dig it out later and see what I can find.
Some racial based ones would be nice as well. Some PrCs can flesh out a particular race quite nicely (like the Tari and Tareks). Conversions of the racial kits featured in the 2e racial books for Thri-kreen and Elves would be cool too.
Doesn't Tyrian Conspiracy also have the psionic-based assassin (as opposed to the DMG's magic-based one), or was that removed?
It's still in there.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
It's still in there.
But it says nothing about the psionic combat. As the assasin gains power points and powers like a psychic warrior, I assume they got psionic combat modes at the similar rate...
Originally posted by Grummore
What do you give to psion and psychic warrior to compensate then?
Compensate? You're doing psywarriors a favor. They the only class in the game that's actually negatively affected by psionic combat ... And you're letting psions spend their powerpoint on something that's actually useful
I know skouat about balance, so shovel-in the tech talk please !!
Master Defiler
Defiler epitomes, master defilers are sorcerers who have sought the power of ancient undeads and of the Dragon. They gain a more in-depth understanding of the defiling process at the cost of greater spellcasting abilities. Their defiling is of the foulest sort and the power they can muster from the land compares to that of no other mortals. The master defilers need physical stamina to channel the vast energies of their sorcery.
Hit Die: d4
Requirements
To become a master defiler (MaD), a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Knowledge (Arcana): 8 ranks
Spellcraft: 8 ranks
Feats: Destructive Raze, Efficient Raze, Great Fortitude
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells.
Others: Must be a defiler. Must have been brought to the brink of death from an inability to gather energy in an area completely devoid of life.
Class Skills:
The master defiler’s class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill points at each level: 2 + Int modifier
Class features
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Master defilers gain no proficiency in any additional weapons, shields or armor.
Obsidian Orb: The master defiler can create a tiny obsidian orb used to gather energy from specially prepared animal life. Creating the orb is taxing, costing the master defiler 100 xp and 50 cp of raw materials. The orb can only be used by the master defiler who created it. To function the orb must be held or be in contact with the skin. The master defiler can at any time use the orb as a conduit for defiling magic, tapping into living beings that have been prepared in an arcane ceremony, and leaving behind an ashen and desiccated corpse. Intelligent animal life gives 4 spell levels of energy per body, while wild animal life gives 1 spell level of energy per 3 hit dice. The energy can be used to substitute energy gathering in zones of poor vegetation or in areas otherwise completely devoid of life, such as the Obsidian Plains. Only two bodies can be tapped at once. For example, a master defiler with three slaves or animals under is control touch and defiles two of them, giving him up to eight levels of spell energy to spend, for a maximum of one spell and one quicken spell, the surplus dissipating into the ground. They must be in touching distance of the master defiler for him to reach and tap their life force. The defiling kills any animal life being taped on the spot, with no chance of later revival.
A master defiler can only have one Obsidian Orb. If he loses it, or it is destroyed, he can create another at the standard cost.
Raze : The terrain yields all to the master defiler. Treat the terrain he defiles in as one category better whenever he uses is orb. This effect stacks with Efficient Raze.
Defile Life : Defiling while using is obsidian orb, the master defiler is under the effect of the undead ability Defile Life (Su) from Terrors of the Dead Lands.
ClassLevel Base Attack Bonus FortSave RefSave WillSave--- Special---Spells/Day
1st------------- +0------------ +0----- +0----- +2 -----Obsidian Orb
2nd------------ +0------------ +0----- +0----- +3--------+1 spellcaster level
3rd------------- +1------------ +1----- +1----- +3 -----Raze
4th------------- +1------------ +1----- +1----- +4--------+1 spellcaster level
5th------------- +2------------ +1----- +1----- +4 -----Defile Life
Oh yeah!
In City-State of Draj: Arrow Knight, Eagle Knight, Jaguar Knight, King's Defiler & Moon Priest
In Whispers of the Storm: Cerulean
In Tyrian Conspiracy: Savage
Where can I find this stuff? Please!
Originally posted by flip
Compensate? You're doing psywarriors a favor. They the only class in the game that's actually negatively affected by psionic combat ... And you're letting psions spend their powerpoint on something that's actually useful
Then explain me in how a psion equal to a wizard... If we take count that the powers list and progression is probably equivalent to the spells list and progression, then in no way the feats progression or items creations is equivalent...!
Explain me please your logic.
Originally posted by Grummore
Then explain me in how a psion equal to a wizard... If we take count that the powers list and progression is probably equivalent to the spells list and progression, then in no way the feats progression or items creations is equivalent...!
Explain me please your logic.
You're looking at this from a different angle than I am. You seem to be thinking that wizards and psions are simply balanced, and that as a component of that balancing, psionic combat has an impact -- for good or ill -- on that balance.
And I've asserted that the only class that's really affected in any way by psionic combat is Psychic Warrior.
But, to answer your question: There are other factors that work into a psion vs wizard balance question ... and it's probably actually better to baseline them against the sorcerer, not the wizard, because of the felxibility in power/spell availability.
Comparing a psion to the Sorcerer:
- Psions have bonus feats. Sorcerers do not.
- Sorcerers get to scale their spells for free, inherent with spellcaster level
- Psions (if they're allowed to at all) must pay with power points to scale their powers.
- Many / Most psionic feats (not meta-psionic or item creation) depend on you having a certain power point resivior, or require that you spend a number of power points to use them.
Thus, nearly everything a psion does puts a drain on his power point resivior -- which in turn has the potential to weaken him by removing some of his most potent psionic feats from play.
To illustrate my first point: a 12th level sorcerer casts a Fireball. 10d6 points of damage, 3rd level spell. A 12th level psion casts Whitefire. 5d4 points of damage, 3rd level power (5 power points). OR, He sinks more power points into it, and does up to 10d4 points of damage. 10 power points spent -- which falls somewhere between a 5th and 6th level power. Scaling, which helps keep lower level powers and spells relevant, costs the psion nearly double the power points, while it costs the wizard, cleric or sorcerer ... nothing.
But my real assertion is not that the wizard and psion (or the sorcerer and psion) are balanced, but that psionic combat is largely irrelevant. This is, in no small part, because the attack roll never progresses, while the defense roll progresses for everyone.
Attack roll: d20 + relevant ability.
Defense roll: Will save + (possible) non-psionic buffer.
Against a non-psionic character, the psion has to overcome a non-psionic buffer. Assuming the target is a first level warrior with 10 wisdom, the opposed roll looks something like this:
(attacker) 1d20 + ability score vs (defender) 1d20 + 0 + 8
Unless the psion has an ability score of 26 or higher in his ability score for that particular attack mode, the advantage goes to the defender. regardless of psion level.
The lone exception: Mind Blast, which not only affects non-psions, it affects multiple non-psionic opponents, at a +4 advantage to the attacker. But it costs 9 power points -- the equivalant of a 4th level power. You could probably use it at 4th level, but it'd wipe you out for the day. At higher levels, the defender's will saves go up, while your own attack roll does not.
A psion has a base defense roll of 1d20 + 2 + Wis mod at 1st level. Goes up to +3 at 2nd level. Again, we'll assume a 10 Wisdom. Against a 2nd level psion, in order to have the advantage in this contested roll, the attacker must have an abilty score of 18 (+4). regardless of attacker level.
Of course, there is the fact that combat modes and defense modes interact to produce modifiers. Which means that once the defender has figured out what your preferred attack mode (the one where you've got the highest associated ability score, since you actually _do_ want to hit) is, and select the appropriate defense mode. At this point, of course, the attacker can switch modes, but it's not always one-for-one power point tradeoff. For example, the cheapest defense mode, Empty Mind (1 ppt), is most effective against the most expensive attack mode.
And, of course, since your defense roll goes up with level (Will save) and the attack roll does not, the advantage continually shifts towards the defender. By the time you could afford to enter into a protracted psionic combat (ie, you can attack enough times to actually drain your opponent's stat to 0) The advantage is pretty firmly in the defender's court. Especially once it's obvious that you're attacking a particular attribute.
Psychic Warriors actually suffer a disadvantage, being the only class that does not actually have the benefit of a non-psionic buffer or a good will save. Nor do they get to start the game already knowing every defense mode there is.
It's a complicated, unweildy holdover. As a player, there is no advantage to taking the offensive in a psionic combat. As a DM, its primary use is to drain a PC of power points by forcing him to defend constantly.
Conclusion: It's a complicated, unweildy system that's not really good for much else besides draining power points to no effect.
I think I heard that there is going to be a 3.5 Version of the Psionics Handbook. Saw that somewhere on the Monte Cook homepage in an interview with Bruce Cordell. One of the things that are going to get changed is psionic combat. I hope that it changes significantly with the new edition.
Oh, and there is one thing that makes it wrong to compare psions to sorcerers: there are no sorcerers on Athas. At least as far as I know. And this actually is a boon, because most players would not want to play a psion if sorcerer is also an option.
Originally posted by mjolnir1066
Thanks...I'll go stand in the corner.
Don't mind me, sometimes I forget I'm talking to human beings, or that people have emotions, or something.... looking back at my post, I umm..... may have made that sound a bit harsh...
I think I heard that there is going to be a 3.5 Version of the Psionics Handbook. Saw that somewhere on the Monte Cook homepage in an interview with Bruce Cordell. One of the things that are going to get changed is psionic combat. I hope that it changes significantly with the new edition.
Still can't find the interview with Cordell on Monte's website, but the Revised Psionic Handbook is listed on WOTC's release calander for this coming July. *sigh* I agree about the psionic combat being garbage. I'd rather see a system that fits better into the whole d20 universal everything resembles everything else chargrin. If its an attack, make it work just like a regular attack. If its a defense thing, make it work like armor. Sword against armor, psionic attack against psionic defense. Sounds like a hold over from the re-re-re-revised psi combat in the later days of 2e.
Your right. It started out as July when unnofficially announced, then got moved. At least its closer than July now
