These are the bad stuff/problems I have with DLCS:
1) Why are the elves (Qualinesti and Silvanesti, not Kagonesti) even more powerful than their PHB equivalents? They have darkvision 30 ft. and two +1 racial skill bonuses in addition to the normal benefits (btw, Spellcraft can't be used untrained, so the +1 bonus to it is useless unless you take at least 1 rank in the skill).
2)The Mystic is weak. I don't have any problems with the spellcasting since both styles, spontaneous and preparation, have their cons and pros. The Cleric, however, has 4 class features more than the Mystic:
- 2 domains instead of just 1
- Heavy Armor Proficiency feat
- Spontaneous casting of cure/inflict spells
- Turn/rebuke undead
Those are quite substantial benefits, I have to say. In order to make the Mystic more balanced, I'm considering of giving the class 4 skill points per level and bonus Metamagic or Item Creation feats every five levels, starting at first. Is that enough? What do you think?
3) The Dragon Rider PrC is useless. In order for a human to be able to have a rideable silver dragon cohort, he has to have 20 character levels...
4) This is a minor issue, but in the description of black dragons in the Dragons chapter it is said that they are very good spellcasters. No they aren't. They're actually the second worst of them all. Should the DL dragons be somehow different?
AoM:
5) The half-kender is very weak. They've got three +1 racial skill bonuses, a +2 on saves against fear, and any favored class. That's it. Even half-elves get more.
6) The Confound Divination class feature of the Legion Sorcerer is both useless and badly described. Here we have one of the "3.0 or 3.5" things: they get a saving throw vs. scrying spells, but those spells already allow one. What about the saving throw vs. area divining thingy - what does it actually allow, with what spells?
7) The war mage gets the arcane spellcasting failure in armor reduction but the class doesn't require any armor proficiency feats nor does it give one. How strange.
8) Call undead spells: the subschool is missing (Summoning?) and the descriptor says "see text" but the text doesn't say anything about it. Is it evil when you summon (or "call"...) evil undead?
9) The second life spell is necromantic but shouldn't it be Conjuration like the rest of the raising/resurrecting spells? And it seems very powerful for its level.
10) The 9th-level undead horde spell's area is a bit vague. What exactly is it? It says it's a wall but doesn't give any dimensions besides "20 ft./level". Huh?
11) The sensitivity mystic domain has deathwatch as its first level spell. However, the spell is Necromancy [evil] now. What should it be changed to?
12) Are ogre titans really monstrous humanoids (and with a non-existent [ogre] subtype...)? How about them being of the giant type...?
13) The cutlass is overpowered. And it probably should be a light weapon instead of Small. 1d6 damage, 18-20 crit threat range, +2 vs. disarming and only a light Martial weapon... sounds more like Exotic to me.
I have some unofficial ideas for solutions to your concerns with the books. You'll probably be able to come up with your own, as that's the nature of the hobby, but if you'd like some examples of alternates for some of these rules, here they are.
Originally posted by Mula
1) Why are the elves (Qualinesti and Silvanesti, not Kagonesti) even more powerful than their PHB equivalents? They have darkvision 30 ft. and two +1 racial skill bonuses in addition to the normal benefits (btw, Spellcraft can't be used untrained, so the +1 bonus to it is useless unless you take at least 1 rank in the skill).
These aren't significant changes. The darkvision doesn't have the usefulness of the dwarven 60 ft and the skill bonuses, as you point out, aren't always immediately useful. Given that there are no PHB elves in the Dragonlance campaign, either, it's not as if they're competing with them.
2)The Mystic is weak. I don't have any problems with the spellcasting since both styles, spontaneous and preparation, have their cons and pros. The Cleric, however, has 4 class features more than the Mystic:
- 2 domains instead of just 1
- Heavy Armor Proficiency feat
- Spontaneous casting of cure/inflict spells
- Turn/rebuke undead
Some of the benefits of the mystic don't really come through if it's taken out of the context of Dragonlance, true enough. Mystics have access to a greater choice of domains than clerics. Mystics can multiclass with wizards; clerics can't. Mystics have Knowledge (nature) as a class skill. Mystics are also the only divine spellcaster available in certain time periods, which while era-specific makes them the only choice if you play in a pre-War of Souls 5th age campaign. Outside of that, mystics are capable of spontaneously casting any spell that they know, not just turning a prepared spell into a healing spell. This includes their domain spells, which clerics typically only get one shot at per day, which makes the mystic more representative of their domain than the cleric.
One could also argue that the cleric is a superior class to most of the other PHB classes. It's certainly tougher than the wizard and sorcerer, for example. A cleric with the War and Strength domains makes a better paladin than a paladin in some cases (and that's the case for Kiri-Jolith's clerics in Dragonlance). Perhaps the mystic shouldn't be compared solely to the cleric, in this case - it occupies one of those middle-grounds between the sorcerer and the cleric, has an incredibly flexible role in the campaign (moreso than a cleric, who is an agent of a singular deity), and for many players is a lot easier to manage.
3) The Dragon Rider PrC is useless. In order for a human to be able to have a rideable silver dragon cohort, he has to have 20 character levels...
Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of good ways around this. Silver dragons are just honestly one of the most powerful creatures in the Monster Manual, especially when they're of an age to show up in the game. A dragon rider with a silver dragon cohort is going to be the envy of any other character of the same level with Leadership. Balance issues aren't popular with some people, but believe me - if you're not the guy with the silver dragon (who can walk around in human or elven form when he's not flying the dragon rider into battle, knows spells from the cleric list and 4 domains on top of the sorcerer/wizard list, and has more hit dice than anybody in the party) you aren't going to be terribly happy.
4) This is a minor issue, but in the description of black dragons in the Dragons chapter it is said that they are very good spellcasters. No they aren't. They're actually the second worst of them all. Should the DL dragons be somehow different?
It also says white dragons are stupid, when they're not, compared to most mortals. In Dragonlance, many of the black dragons have been known to use their magic a fair bit - certainly more than the blue dragons, for the most part, and those are some of the better spellcasters. DL dragons are no different from the ones in the Monster Manual, but their attitudes and roles aren't exactly the same.
5) The half-kender is very weak. They've got three +1 racial skill bonuses, a +2 on saves against fear, and any favored class. That's it. Even half-elves get more.
My solution to this minor problem is to give the half-kender a +2 bonus on Bluff checks when used to taunt others. That's half of the kender's bonus. It really does hinge on the abilities of the kender, since the half-kender shouldn't have any ability its kender parent doesn't have. If you're still not comfortable with the race, give them weapon familiarity with kender weapons as well - a hoopak scaled for a medium character is more dangerous than one scaled for a small character.
6) The Confound Divination class feature of the Legion Sorcerer is both useless and badly described. Here we have one of the "3.0 or 3.5" things: they get a saving throw vs. scrying spells, but those spells already allow one. What about the saving throw vs. area divining thingy - what does it actually allow, with what spells?
Scrying underwent a significant change from 3.0 to 3.5 and this did make things tricky when materials are being developed at the same time. That said, the Confound Divination ability might need a little tweaking if you don't think it has enough power. My suggestion would be to give the legion sorcerer a bonus to his Will saves to block scrying or divination attempts equal to his level in legion sorcerer, and allow a successful Will save to not only block the scrying attempt but let the legion sorcerer send false information per a misdirection spell. That would also make the ability's name more meaningful.
7) The war mage gets the arcane spellcasting failure in armor reduction but the class doesn't require any armor proficiency feats nor does it give one. How strange.
For the most part this is a class ability which lets the war mage use any other class levels more efficiently. It's not likely to be as useful to a Wizard of High Sorcery, but it's extremely useful to war mages who are fighter/sorcerers, Knights of the Thorn, Legion Sorcerers, rogue/sorcerers, cleric/sorcerers, etc.
8) Call undead spells: the subschool is missing (Summoning?) and the descriptor says "see text" but the text doesn't say anything about it. Is it evil when you summon (or "call"...) evil undead?
These spells could also be called "Summon Undead", as they work along the same lines as the other summon spells. The "see text" descriptor is a legacy of those other spells, and although the text doesn't actually say it this should be taken to mean that the spell is Evil if it summons an evil undead, Lawful if it summons a lawful undead, etc.
9) The second life spell is necromantic but shouldn't it be Conjuration like the rest of the raising/resurrecting spells? And it seems very powerful for its level.
Conjuration (healing) may be a more appropriate school for this spell, although it does have necromantic aspects (specifically the manipulation of life force). However, it's spell level is fine - it's essentially a Raise Dead spell on a trigger mechanism, and Raise Dead is a 5th level spell.
10) The 9th-level undead horde spell's area is a bit vague. What exactly is it? It says it's a wall but doesn't give any dimensions besides "20 ft./level". Huh?
This spell could have been called "Wall of Souls", since that's more or less what it is. It's described as a sheet 20 ft long/level, so that when it's cast by a 17th level cleric the wall is 340 ft long. This behaves exactly like the wall of fire spell, in that respect, which has a similar sheetlike nature.
11) The sensitivity mystic domain has deathwatch as its first level spell. However, the spell is Necromancy [evil] now. What should it be changed to?
Drop the [Evil] descriptor for the purposes of this domain, if this is a problem.
12) Are ogre titans really monstrous humanoids (and with a non-existent [ogre] subtype...)? How about them being of the giant type...?
I don't see any reason why ogre titans couldn't continue to possess the giant type, no. They're artificial, mind you - ogre titans never existed in Krynn's history. Plus, Irda aren't giants, they're humanoids, so there's precedent for the shift, and ogre titans have a lot of elven blood traits by virtue of their creation, so that's another thing to consider. If you change the rule, however, creatures who become ogre titans who didn't possess the giant type beforehand (such as minotaurs) should have their type changed to giant.
13) The cutlass is overpowered. And it probably should be a light weapon instead of Small. 1d6 damage, 18-20 crit threat range, +2 vs. disarming and only a light Martial weapon... sounds more like Exotic to me.
The Small/Medium/etc qualities of weapons no longer applies in 3.5, so the cutlass would be a one-handed martial weapon. It's more or less a scimitar with a +2 disarm bonus, so if you dropped the threat range to 19-20 instead of the scimitar's 18-20 in return for that bonus and being able to be used as a light weapon for Weapon Finesse (like a rapier), that might work better for you.
I hope some of this helped! Generally I like to think the books have a great deal more positive than negative elements - certainly I haven't made very many house rules of my own for my current Dragonlance campaign. But, as always your mileage may vary on the extent to which these work for your preferences so consider the above to be a suggestion in that direction.
Cheers,
Cam
1) Why are the elves (Qualinesti and Silvanesti, not Kagonesti) even more powerful than their PHB equivalents? They have darkvision 30 ft. and two +1 racial skill bonuses in addition to the normal benefits (btw, Spellcraft can't be used untrained, so the +1 bonus to it is useless unless you take at least 1 rank in the skill).
for the same reason minotaurs are inferior to the Monster manual ones, they have been adapted to a specific world. even then most people would still take the extra feat and +1 skill per level.
3) The Dragon Rider PrC is useless. In order for a human to be able to have a rideable silver dragon cohort, he has to have 20 character levels...
the ECL for a dragon is considered a - 3 when determining the dragon you ride. you could actually ride a Silver Dragon at 17. even still, Dragons are bad mama-jamas and your complaining that you have to wait until you rise in level to recieve the strongest possible mounted Dragon. not to mention you can achive a young gold dragon as a mount earlier then that and the Dragons HD increase with your Rider level.
7) The war mage gets the arcane spellcasting failure in armor reduction but the class doesn't require any armor proficiency feats nor does it give one. How strange.
I didnt see a war mage but I know that the knight of the Thorn which gets the same benefit specifically states needing all Martial weapon proficencies as well as heavy armor.
8) Call undead spells: the subschool is missing (Summoning?) and the descriptor says "see text" but the text doesn't say anything about it. Is it evil when you summon (or "call"...) evil undead?
its says in the PHB that what ever Monster you summon with the alignment listed becomes a spell of that Alignment.
The rest are pretty good assesments. I would say the undead horde follows the same mechanics as the other wall spells. other then that I cant help you too much from work.
Originally posted by Mula
I received my copies of DLCS and AoM yesterday and already now I have a few issues with both of them. The great majority of the material in the books is good, but especially AoM has an amateurish or an unfinished feel to it: 3.0 or 3.5, the quality of the writing (not typos) in certain parts, a few weird design issues (why does Goldmoon have heal and restoration permanently Empowered with her Citadel Mystic class ability?), the Table of Contents... it feels like it's been done in a hurry.
These are the bad stuff/problems I have with DLCS:
1) Why are the elves (Qualinesti and Silvanesti, not Kagonesti) even more powerful than their PHB equivalents? They have darkvision 30 ft. and two +1 racial skill bonuses in addition to the normal benefits (btw, Spellcraft can't be used untrained, so the +1 bonus to it is useless unless you take at least 1 rank in the skill).
Now they are no less powerfulthan dwarves. Remember, their favored class is wizard, so the weapon proficiencies they gain are useless when they take the WoHS prestige class.
2)The Mystic is weak. I don't have any problems with the spellcasting since both styles, spontaneous and preparation, have their cons and pros. The Cleric, however, has 4 class features more than the Mystic:
- 2 domains instead of just 1
- Heavy Armor Proficiency feat
- Spontaneous casting of cure/inflict spells
- Turn/rebuke undead
This is purely skeptical, much like the wizard/sorceror power debate.
7) The war mage gets the arcane spellcasting failure in armor reduction but the class doesn't require any armor proficiency feats nor does it give one. How strange.
You realize that every character is effectively proficient in padded, leather, and masterwork studded leather armor, right? Since they have no armor check penalty, they don't have any adverse affects on the character. Funny how these are the best armors to use with the class in the first place, isn't it?
12) Are ogre titans really monstrous humanoids (and with a non-existent [ogre] subtype...)? How about them being of the giant type...?
Look at the orge titan picture, they are just blue elves, essentially.
Mystics can multiclass with wizards; clerics can't
Where exactly does it say this?
Originally posted by Mucknuggle
Where exactly does it say this?
A wizard's only loyalty is to magic. A cleric's full commitment and faith is to his god. You cannot put split your loyalties between the magic of the Moons and the magic of the Holy Orders. In addition, you cannot be both a spellcaster drawing on ambient magic (mysticism and sorcery) and one that draws on focused or directed magic (cleric and wizard).
The following multiclass combinations, therefore, won't work:
Wizard/cleric, wizard/druid, wizard/ranger (after 3rd level ranger): Conflict between magic and deity.
Wizard/sorcerer, wizard/bard, cleric/mystic, druid/mystic, ranger (after 3rd level ranger)/mystic: Conflict between focused magic and wild magic.
You can happily be a cleric/sorcerer, or a cleric/bard (clerics of Branchala, anyone?), or a bard/sorcerer, or even a bard/mystic. All of these are fine. The real stickler is the wizard, and cleric in some cases.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Kai Lord
You still didn't answer his question. ;)
This is me cleverly covering up for that with helpful rules fu.
Bottom line is - it doesn't say anywhere in the DLCS that clerics can't multiclass with wizards. But it's implied heavily under the Wizard of High Sorcery PrC and in other sections detailing magic and the Gods, and it's been raised earlier in questions to SP staff who've more or less agreed that there are serious issues with those multiclasses.
But on the other hand, if you want multiclassed minotaur wizard/druids running about with greatswords and wearing chain mail, no problem.
Cheers,
Cam
DLCS pg. 45
Clerics can never worship more than one deity at a time, though a cleric may switch allegiance.
DLCS pg. 53
The act of casting an arcane spell is an act of worship to Solinari, Nuitari, or Lunitari, depending on the spellcaster's alignment.
(I'm pretty sure I'm okay quoting that..if not, just say so Dragonhelm and I'll edit.)
Originally posted by Nevine
(I'm pretty sure I'm okay quoting that..if not, just say so Dragonhelm and I'll edit.)
No problem. Thanks Nevine!
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Nevine
(I'm pretty sure I'm okay quoting that..if not, just say so Dragonhelm and I'll edit.)
It's cool. Quick quotes like that are okay. Reprinting entire prestige classes (example) is where this becomes a no-no.