Ever since Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms setting was first published, it's been TSR/WotC's top-selling setting, relegating the once more-prominant Greyhawk to the sidelines. This has annoyed me for a while now, but I think that I've just discovered why it's so, and now I'm not so angry anymore.
I always thought that the people behind Greyhawk were what was really holding it back. TSR and WotC weren't publishing high enough quality product (in terms of production values). They weren't putting it out in the kind of quantities necessary to rival FR. The TSR brass wanted to oppress the work of Gary Gygax. It was their fault. Either negligence or a malicious conspiracy.
Surely, if the tables were turned and published GR material had outnumbered FR material by a wide margin and had the same glitz, things would be different and GH would be on top.
I don't see it that way anymore. Frankly, I just don't think GH was destined for that level of commercial success. This is not because of any failing, but rather for the very reason I like it so much.
You see, Forgotton Realms and similar popular settings give they vast majority of players and GMs out there exactly what they want: A setting so magic-rich that it rivals the Marvel Universe for sheer spectacle and power. Tons of uber-NPCs that make great cover art and pulp novel fodder. Ridiculous amounts of detail on EVERY aspect of the setting. A very clear differentiation between good and evil, with more purely political clashes and other "shades of grey" conflicts kept to a minimum.
That's what the majority wants; there's no denying it. This is what sells like hotcakes.
But Greyhawk is different. Magic is there, but the village blacksmith isn't a 5th-level wizard stoking his forge with a wand of fireballs. Important NPCs act as contacts, patrons, friends or enemies to the PCs, but they don't determine the course of the world from off-screen. The setting is only an outline and everything isn't always there for you to reference in a "canon" source. The GM and players still have to create large parts of the world as they go. Morality isn't black and white. Sometime good people kill each other and evil ones make better landlords. Furthermore, neutrality is a force to be reckoned with.
This is why I love the setting and it's also why it doesn't appeal to so many. They want simple, easy-to-run comic book-style power trips in a morally-uncomplicated world that's completely fleshed-out by others. That may bore me to tears, but it's what brings in the dough.
As long as Greyhawk remains Greyhawk, so sheer amount of support and no possible marketing strategy will ever cause it to take hold with the masses the way FR has.
So I'm done being bitter about it. It's nobody's fault and it's not a conspiracy. It's just life. Hell, if it keeps GH from becoming more like the stuff that is wildly popular right now, it might even be a blessing.
one thing I do disagree with to some extent is the bit about it being a good thing that not everything is detailed.
What I'm trying to say is that Greyhawk shouldn't be detailed like FR is - but it should be detailed more than it is at the moment. I find it very frustrating to have to create all the "basic" people in the setting. For instance, Cobb Darg and Elaine Mystica from Irongate. I have a setting set in Irongate, so now I have to create them in proper detail. Why shouldn't that be done already? It is fundamental to the setting.
So yes it is good that Greyhawk is not over-detailed, but it is bad that Greyhawk is under-detailed.
One simple thing would probably fix all that. One nice big hardcover. Surely it is not much to ask....
I like Greyhawk for what it was and how it developed in from the ashes. Just think of IUZ as a Hercules on a world conquering binge. Remember Hercules was a god that walked the earth and enjoyed adventuring, drink, and women. Iuz enjoy's pain,suffering, and world conquest.
In the FR campaign they had the Gods War the Time of Troubles. But after that they went back to a world of big bad Zhentilar that never conquer land but travel across the worlds largest desert on an everyday basis. I guess this is why no one likes the Zhents they never stay home. Then you have Mulmaster once again lets amass large armies and attack no one.
In GH wars are fought everyday, as every nation or just about every nation wishes to expand its territory. Ket, Iuz, Furyondy, Nyrond, The Pale, and The Pomarj. Their are others as well but these are the major players in the game. The Northern Kingdom wants it territoy back. How was the United Kingdom of Ahlissa formed if their was no war.
The scenary changes in GH, while all things remain the same in FR. Heck the closest Fr came to changing their scenary was in the Horde campaign and we all know what happened there. Everything remained unchanged.
So let masses keep their rendition of a good roleplaying world. Because only a choice few deserve GH.
I just had to add that line for all the FR fans out their. Because if they thought we were elitest before, now they really have a reason to believe it. LOL
You see, Forgotton Realms and similar popular settings give they vast majority of players and GMs out there exactly what they want: A setting so magic-rich that it rivals the Marvel Universe for sheer spectacle and power. Tons of uber-NPCs that make great cover art and pulp novel fodder. Ridiculous amounts of detail on EVERY aspect of the setting. A very clear differentiation between good and evil, with more purely political clashes and other "shades of grey" conflicts kept to a minimum.
SPOON FED MATERIAL
[RANT]
I agree. However, I'd still like to see a new supplement for Greyhawk. Not much more than a rehashing of the 1998 Players Guide to Greyhawk by Ann Brown....Minus to rehashed review of the City of Greyhawk.
Adding in of course some more of the "Mysterious Places" style adventure hooks and some 3.5 compatible crunchy bits like updated magic items, Greyhawk Specific monsters (3.5 version of the Greyhawk Dragon, Mist Wolf, Kech or Yeth Hound).
Write ups on major NPC's (Mordenkainen, The Circle of Eight, Taurin Deathstalker). Updated Prestige Classes encompassing the ones released so far, and expanding and adding new ones like the Knights of the Heart, Knights of the watch, Knights of Luna, Druid of the Old Faith, and Gnarley Rangers.
Descriptions of capital cities akin to the format presented in the Forgotten Realms Adventures Hardback with the little maps to go with them. (Actually not a bad model for what I'm looking for) A nice shiny new map to go with it. Using the new flash artwork on a nice hard cover would be great, but not completely necessary.
The supplement should be a copmanion piece for the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. Taking advantage of the material already published and building on it.
Just something to keep us up to date. I don't want thirty new supplements in 2 years like the FR.
[/RANT]
Bleh. Lorraine Williams was not exactly a corporate genius, but she wasn't THAT stupid. Nobody in big business makes concerted efforts to get revenge on someone over something so petty, especially when it means diverting profits to a non-profitable venture.
FR over GH was a business decision and, quite frankly, an intelligent one. Get over it. The same goes for the current situation. It's business. Pure'n'simple. There is, quite simply, no money in GH. Whatever way you spin it or for whatever reason, it's just not profitable to make GH products.
Maybe someday that may change, but for now, give up the ghost already, the horse is dead...
Egyptians transported into a direct Tolkien knock off fantasy world?? Everytime I come across something about Forgotten Realms I must gag. The only thing I can think of is that it became the official world at the right time and had most of the D&D computer games and novels published around it. I found the Dragonlance world pretty lifeless but the first 6 books had such good characters I read them all. And that seems to keep Dragonlance alive as a game setting for some reason. Forgotten Realms has both the official game setting stamp for most of D&D's mainstream existence and Drizzt and others selling it. Only thing I can figure since it is just so silly.
Perhaps the biggest reason for FR's phenomenal success is the work of R.A. Salvatore. As has been stated above, the mega-appeal of Drizzt Do'Urden demanded commercial capitalization. Drizzt is the Michael Jordan of fantasy.
And this is a simple concept, but even the name, Forgotten Realms has an attractively mysterious and semantic appeal. What's in a name? A whole lot. To a newcomer, what sounds more exciting? A world called Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms.
There is of course the whole Greyhawk/RPGA relationship. Greyhawk seems to have an entirely different purpose - to be an evolving world with a course decided at RPGA conventions and other events. Players make greyhawk. Salvatore, Knaak et. al. make FR.
Just a few humble comments. An interesting question, with interesting opinions. I do agree, in the end, money decisions govern the visibility and commercial expedients of the product.
Originally posted by Yamo
You see, Forgotton Realms and similar popular settings give they vast majority of players and GMs out there exactly what they want: A setting so magic-rich that it rivals the Marvel Universe for sheer spectacle and power. Tons of uber-NPCs that make great cover art and pulp novel fodder. Ridiculous amounts of detail on EVERY aspect of the setting. A very clear differentiation between good and evil, with more purely political clashes and other "shades of grey" conflicts kept to a minimum.
That's what the majority wants; there's no denying it. This is what sells like hotcakes.
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but that's not what most appeals to me. I prefer less magic, more swordplay (there's a reason why "sword" comes first in "sword and sorcery" - because that's the way it should be!). And as much as I like Tolkien, I find that having more ambiguity (as Moorcock does) makes for more dynamic characters and more interesting conflicts. Maybe I am in the minority, but I just wanted to go on record. Maybe if enough people say that this is what they want, the industry will respond.
I don't know what's worse, the conspiracy theories, the anti-conspiracy theories, the calls for more products, or now this.
Why FR instead of GH?
So they didn't have to have Gary Gygax's name on every product. The same reason for 2nd ed., a similar reason for AD&D.
Could GH have had the sales of FR?
Of course it could! Don't try and pretend. TSR tried running that line on people back during the FtA days. Apparently they figured we couldn't count 10 GH products in one year and compare it to 10 FR products in one month, and avoid them "telling us it was raining".
People buy what's available. If it's for FR, they buy FR. If it's for GH, they buy GH. Most people anyway.
I wound up buying Known World/Mystara stuff, which despite needing conversion, I felt was better than FR any day.Nowadays of course, GH fans are so set in their ways new product gets trashed by someone, no matter how good it might be.
Let's not get on too high of a high horse here. Remember, like GH, FR was a home campaign world that eventually evolved into a full-blown published setting. Nowadays, thirty years later, the hobby has evolved to the point where directly ripping fantasy or historical elements whole cloth are frowned on and comparatively rare, but back then, it wasn't that unusual, especially since the hobby was still in it's relative infancy. The hobby is rife with rather blatant 'tributes' to real-world fiction, mythologies and concepts.
And before you gripe about FR having the egyptian knock-offs running around, remember that the Olmans in GH are little more than the same thing but with a mesoamerican twist. Rhenee? Gypsys. Etc. etc. In all of the older settings (and some of the more recent, as well), there are plenty of direct adoptions of real-world mythology or cultures. Par for the course.
People buy what's available.
Isn't this attitude why TSR went bankrupt?
Wait a miniute...
...Lorraine? Is that you?
;)
Seriously, though, people buy what they want. Many times more people out there actively desire the FR paradigm and not the GH one. Sad, but true. It's simpler (although seemingly paradoxically so by being more detailed), less political and morally complex and more power trip-friendly.
The conspiracy theories are bunk. Switching the ratio of GH to FR around would do nothing but hurt WotC's bottom line and both game lines in the long run. They publish where the money is, and the money is where it is because of the preferences of the buyers.
The crowd here (myself included) loves Greyhawk, but there's no sense pretending that we're representative of anything but a very, very small niche market.
No. Their attitude was,
"People will buy everything we put out no matter what, and we can eat the losses on the boxed sets because they will make people buy a ton of other stuff."
Which was of course completely wrong.
However, what I said is true. People will buy what is available. If all that is available is FR, then people who are going to buy something are going to be buying FR. If all those FR product were instead GH products, people would have been buying GH products, with all the benefits and flaws of FR products of the era. Many GH fans wound up buying products for other settings simply because that was all that was available. However different those settings may have been from GH didn't matter in the long run. But it wasn't a choice of settings that killed TSR.
I say this after having been through a gazillion discussions with FR, GH and position neutral fans. People who either 'give GH a go' or who were once GH'ers and now prefer FR, all prefer FR due to personal preference, not because of what is available.
I've turned people into GH fans and I've found people who simply despise the setting no matter what I throw at them. The majority prefer FR and I think that is as plain as day if you ask around.
You have to be a certain type of person to prefer GH. And the majority just aren't like us
I'm to the point now I couldn't care less the why first TSR and now WotC do the things they do. If a new product is put out for GH I'll probably buy it but I already know I couldn't use it as is. Since 3.5 came spewing from their hole I don't see the point in buying anything from them. They expect everyone to drop around a hundred bucks on rule tweaking
, their nuts. I liked 3E the way it was, if anything, I would have liked to see a 2E "Options" type book for 3E. It probably would have sold better than 3.5 did. WotC would do well to pay attention to sites like Canon, Community 3E, Planetadnd and others like them to see what the actual players are coming up with and contributing to sites. I've found more useful information and ideas on sites like those than in their books since I first switched to 3E.
But thats just my 2 cp, I am happy in the minority.
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but that's not what most appeals to me. I prefer less magic, more swordplay (there's a reason why "sword" comes first in "sword and sorcery" - because that's the way it should be!). And as much as I like Tolkien, I find that having more ambiguity (as Moorcock does) makes for more dynamic characters and more interesting conflicts. Maybe I am in the minority, but I just wanted to go on record. Maybe if enough people say that this is what they want, the industry will respond.
Finally a fellow compatriot! I also believe Delgath has proven many points stated already. It takes a certain kind of person to like GH. Most fans not all fans of the GH setting found it to be more flavorful than FR because of it's view on magic. With that said if you read modules and even many other articles and books in the GH setting magic is not toned down. So I place the level of magic I wish to have present in my campaign. The main reason for my preference of the GH setting is it's history. The original authors and later Carl Sargent contributed a well thought out campaign scenario. The people, races, cultures, and languages all have certain appealing effects.
FR tends to generalize everything and utilize's its main characters in the setting as mascots. Dark Sun had some new atributes to a setting, my favorite of which was the defiler and preserver classes but the setting was to monotonous for me. Dragonlance had some great novels in the beginning Chronicles was the best of the series. But for some reason I enjoyed GH more even though DL seems to have a lower level of magic use it was the inclusion of dragon riders which turned me off to the setting. Ravenloft would of been better as a complete gothic setting without the standard pc races. Instead different human species should of been the core of the campaign maybe even allowing vampiric, lycanthropic, or other type of undead pc's. Birthright was actually well written but had a stagnant type of feel to it. Perhaps it was the way the world was detailed. But It was the lowest magic level world ever published by TSR/WOTC.
In any case I think that some of these settings hurt others because they each had scenario's that appealed to similar groups.
I for one tried to mix Birthright with GH and Darksun with FR. Dragonlance and Ravenloft were better of being separate from every other setting. In the end I stuck with GH, but must admit that what little was published for each setting was often over looked for some thing else. So where as my full allocated dollars would have gone to one specific setting. Instead it was spread between 4 or 5 settings only to be tossed out or given to someone else you wished to have it.
i believe in dynamic changes but the realms couldn't afford anything drastic with all the authors and designers putting out products. i became so bored with the realms, and with D&D as well. so for a few years i played other systems, i DMed a few games now and then with the realms but the passion wasn't there.
now with my homebrew campaign that fizzled after a year, i took up the GH books once again. i like what happenend, the wars kept a dynamic change that was appealing, and best of all, it wasn't the cliched fight of good versus evil. numerous factions and countries all jumped on the war bandwagon. cool.
now my problem is that there is too much inspiration. focusing on one aspect is my biggest problem.
as far the realms selling more product, let them. i prefer the greyhawk world as it is. enjoyable, with no two-sword wielding drows anywhere in sight.
Both have their advantages,
FR is a no-brainer to run, everything is laid out of a plate for starting GM's and quite a few hundred bucks has been sunk into aquiring the books for the setting. And theyre beautiful books too, nicely laid out and full of usefull things.
But, I dont know what it is about FR that makes it a second cousin to GH, abit a well dressed if slightly retarded cousin, that makes me think I cant really affect the surroundings as a single group of players. We just cant seem to achieve anything to buck the status-quo and the GM is having a bit of trouble adapting to the power level as a whole, which see's level 18 characters with saving throw DC's and so forth on par with our old 32nd level troopers in GH and having uber-powerful archmages in every hamlet as the towns guardian. Its not exactly an easy place to survive or adventure in either and the attrition rates have made it hard to get attached to characters for very long.
GH is like an old pair of boots, simple, comfortable and easy to live with, which we have done for over 10 years now with the same characters and you can see the impact those characters have made, making it a much more different place to the one which is in our old and tattered books. I like that, it makes it a personal place to be if a way Ive been unable to get attracted to FR with.
As for Wotc producing more stuff for GH, yeah sure we'd all buy it in a flash but the fact is we're a hard working group who's not a stranger to making it up as we go and making elements that no one else has bothered to add since production stopped.
Looking at it in the long term, if Wotc dosnt want my money, then so be it and the game wont stop either way when theyre dead and buried in the past as a previous owner.
Not now, but if back when novels and computer games were being published for the game the roles were reversed then I think the public preference would be different.
Steve_MND - To some extent anything with dwarves, elves, and orcs is a Tolkien derivative, but at least in GH they made the elves more Celtic and didn't include a whole part about elves leaving over the sea from the earth exactly like LotR. And Elminster the amazing Gandalf ripoff. In other words GH manages to have its own distinct feel while FR just feels like every other generic fantasy world. And I don't even mind if your campaign has Thor as a god in it but, making a whole story about Egyptians being transfered to the world and how their gods negotiate into the world pantheon is such a mechanical contrivance and a bit hokey. There's just nothing interesting I've ever read about the FR world and I'm always left wondering if a 12 year old is the actual author. No pizzazz at all. I wouldn't say I've seen some home campaigns that are better written I'd say that most home campaigns I've seen are better written. There is just nothing interesting to it! Okay, rant over return to normalcy.
For GH to have been as successful as FR you would have to have a RA Salvatore writing novels full of annoying characters, misc other hack authors writing novels full of even more annoying characters, plus tying all these novels into game supplements, computer games, poseable action figures and breakfast cereal. It's much more than just comparing box sets.
Icewind Dale vs. Gord the Rogue which one was on the Best Seller's List? Would you really want Drizzle to be located in Oearth? You know it could have been done and popularized GH rather that FR, but at what price?
All the crap that all the GH fans hate about the FR setting are what makes it a better "seller". If GH was to be as popular as FR then there would *have* to be lots of hack novels tied to lame modules, poseable actions figures (Collect ALL of the Circle of Eight!!!!), Licensed Character tie-in's, breakfast cereal and all the other "bad" things people dislike about FR.
bushfire
In other words, all those extra products don't have to be crap. It is possible to create all of those things as quality products. But yeah, it's highly unlikely.
I'd spout about how I agree or disagree with the rest, but it's starting to feel like I'm shooting the same old gun and hitting nothing.
All I can say is, get out there and buy the ToEE computer game. Maybe if it does well enough it will turn some designer/corporate heads toward Greyhawk.
Originally posted by Jagermeister
All I can say is, get out there and buy the ToEE computer game. Maybe if it does well enough it will turn some designer/corporate heads toward Greyhawk.
Thats probably good advice. Also buy, and encourage others to buy, the novels based on Against the Giants and ToEE. I suspect that the success of the novels was as much a driving force behind the production of FR supplements as anything else. Goodness knows they sold more novels then they did games they were based on.
Making a Greyhawk supplement probably isn't worth much to WoTC without the rest of the tie-ins. So buy the computer games, buy the novels, buy the poseable actions figures, buy the breakfast cereal.
Just be prepared to deal with the fact that for every new Greyhawk module you get you will have to put up with a hack novel to go along with it. Oh, and neither of them will be written by EGG.
bushfire
Originally posted by Jagermeister
All I can say is, get out there and buy the ToEE computer game. Maybe if it does well enough it will turn some designer/corporate heads toward Greyhawk.
I'd recommend against buying the game. Although it's based in Greyhawk, it's primarily a hack'n'slash game and so there's really very little Greyhawk in it to be 'immersed' in and it's also an unfinished, very buggy game (Troika's own admission, Atari forced them to publish it even though it wasn't finished). Personally, I'm tired of the software industry thinking they can get away with foisting half-finished crap on the consumer.
And anyway, like I said above, the material put out doesn't have to be crap. If it is, don't buy it. So what if Greyhawk doesn't get as much attention as FR.
Think about this... the people currently in charge of doing ANYTHING Greyhawk are also major fans of the setting. That means that most of the stuff that gets put out is going to be, at the very least, done in the spirit of Greyhawk (whatever that is...). Although, having said that, it also means hardly anyone else can put anything out for the setting either. You take the good with the bad I suppose.
Originally posted by rostoff
Don't flame me, love the adventures and the setting, but EGG not writing the novels is a good thing. Gord's adventures seemed to be someone writing down what happened in a game session, not American literature.
This is very true. They were interesting at best, and a laborious read at worst. Though if I may recommend "City of Hawks" which is a collection of greyhawk related short stories by Gygax. This book is the best he has ever written, better than alot of fantasy books I have read, and is an enjoyable book, even if you never read any of the others in the series.
Halber
Lets also have some honesty...Drizzt Do'Urden is popular because Drow were popular...thanks to the G, D and Q-series modules (with another couple thrown in for the A-series and the T-series). Its because of Drizzt that we have this whole nonsense about Rangers wielding two weapons at once (thats funny...I didnt realise woodsmen learned to fight Florentine....its called the Duelist that wields 2 weapons...but that is rant for another day).
Forgotten Realms was everywhere and Greyhawk was almost nowhere after N1 Cult of the Reptile God (IIRC...that was the last 1st Edition Greyhawk module to be created). Sure, there was the joke version of Castle Greyhawk (which is fun for a laugh....but is in no way a real representation of the Castle...and lets not even go into the pathetic excuse of a module Ruins of Castle Greyhawk.....a spelljammer indeed.)
As for Forgotten Realms....no thanks. The setting blows chunks. Everytime Ive had to play in FR, Ive managed to convince the DM to let me bring in a Greyhawk PC.
About the only thing decent with the FR 3/3.5 setting is the nation specific Feats (which it would be nice if they added a number of them for Greyhawk). Otherwise...its just a pale imitation of Middle-Earth for power gaming wonks.
Originally posted by Keolander
About the only thing decent with the FR 3/3.5 setting is the nation specific Feats (which it would be nice if they added a number of them for Greyhawk). Otherwise...its just a pale imitation of Middle-Earth for power gaming wonks.
Don't sugar-coat it Keolander, tell us how you really feel. :DThe Gods in Greyhawk seem to be more personal
(St. Cutbert, gotta love em).
What I could never understood is why they took Tiamat to Forgotten Realms and left Bahamut as if he never existed?
I also wish they would at least put city map supplements (City of Greyhawk, etc.), because it is very time consuming creating cities maps and the like.
I do not think that it would be too much time to create stuff for the Greyhawkers, just some city maps, please.
Originally posted by SputnikCorp
i've read somewhere that the comedy adventure "castle greyhawk" was a final stab at gygax. sour grapes towards mr. gygax from leaving TSR i guess.
CEO: What's on the agenda today? Profits? Loss? Expenditure?
Board Member #1: We're going to make a module that is a pubescent snipe at Gary Gygax!
CEO: Fantastic! I hate that guy!
Board Member #2: How much money will it make us?
Board Member #3: Absolutely none. It will, however, cost us the good will of all our fans and make us look like retards.
CEO: Brilliant strategy!
Board Member #2: Does it come with chits?
There are still many GH fans who will eat up any product on GH they can get their hands on. Take TOEE. Good selling product so far. Not phenomenal, but I guarantee the project pulled a profit. But to ignore GH because it isn't the gold mine that FR is seems to be putting all your eggs in one basket and it kind of alienates people like me who are primarily GH fans.
I don't want GH to be detailed like FR. I want GH to get a moderate level of attention. To be honest, I'd be satisfied if they make the LG journal as detailed as they used to. I know LG isn't exactly the same as a comprehensive campaign setting, but it's good stuff nonetheless.
I don't know of one FR campaign where the PCs are laden to their max encumbrance with artifact level items who have woed all Seven Sisters and are on a first name basis with Elminster. I've got other reasons for not favoring FR, but most of them are simply for lack of cohesive interaction between the various nations and other power groups.
I'm not sticking up for the setting in light, but just wondering how many of the complaints about FR are based solely on one's general assumptions and how many are actually complaints that one has witnessed.
I also played a FR one-shot that was pretty ridiculously over-powered. It was then that I decided that Magic of Faerun was broken as hell. And I was playing the wizard in the party.
Then there was City of the Spider Queen. Oh yes, that was LOADS of fun, let me tell you. No ultra-powerful magic in that module, no siree bob.
Ever heard of a campaign called Living City? I've seen players of 10th level character who have 2 inch binders filled and dedicated solely to certs of magic items.
I think there's some justification for the belief. We GHers like to blow some stories out of proportion because we feel the setting is taking undue attention away from D&D's original setting sometimes. However, just because we might occassionally exaggerate doesn't mean that FR is a nice little medium-magic world.
Epic Level Handbook anyone?
Epic Level Handbook anyone?
Which unfortunately is also supposed to be for GH as well. I glanced at the write up of Mordenkainen, then placed it back on the shelf.
I know of not one single FR campaign that is run that way.
I believe this. I also believe that lots of other folks (myself included) have run across ones that are.
So while I respect your experience, expecting your anecdotal evidence to overcome someone else's contradictory anecdotal evidence is a waste of time at most.
Well, as I said, that was one of my more mature FR experiences.
Halber
So while I respect your experience, expecting your anecdotal evidence to overcome someone else's contradictory anecdotal evidence is a waste of time at most
Perhaps the post was misunderstood. I was simply curious as to how many people are truly speaking from personal experience. I have talked to some people on these boards who have confessed that they have never and will never sit in on a FR game simply based upon their own presumptions of how much the game will be tailored for power-gaming, hence, the post was not simply a waste of time in and of itself, no more than yours was.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Which unfortunately is also supposed to be for GH as well. I glanced at the write up of Mordenkainen, then placed it back on the shelf.
Ack! That was an AWFUL version of Mordenkainen. I hate how NPC write-ups never take advantage of all the things a regular PC would take advantage of, for instance wish spells to raise abilities, and uber magic items.
Even Elmunchkin's write-up was lame, but giving Mordenkainen a Staff of Fiery Burning was just so unimaginative and retarded that I wonder why they even bother doing such write-ups.
As for playing in FR...
The last PNP game I was in was with a new group. The DM preferred FR and since I was desperate to play I decided, what the hell, I'll give it a go. I ended up quitting the game not because he ran it as overpowered, but rather because he wouldn't allow ANYTHING different from his very strict interpretation of the rules. I hate that... my primary source of enjoyment in roleplaying is... surprise, surprise, roleplaying, and I make up characters that I have to reverse engineer to fit the rules and sometimes they don't always fit well so I have to request adjustments. Nothing major, just things like the variant Urban Ranger in the splatbook. But he wouldn't allow anything different from the core rules so I got sick of it and left. I found out later that he was just being a prick to me as he later gave someone the urban ranger variant... anyway, point is, everyone runs their games differently, regardless of whether it's Oerth or Faerun.
Originally posted by Delglath
Ack! That was an AWFUL version of Mordenkainen. I hate how NPC write-ups never take advantage of all the things a regular PC would take advantage of, for instance wish spells to raise abilities, and uber magic items.
Even Elmunchkin's write-up was lame, but giving Mordenkainen a Staff of Fiery Burning was just so unimaginative and retarded that I wonder why they even bother doing such write-ups.
Recently there was a write up for Rary and his buddies in the Bright from the LGJ which was pretty good.
If you disinfect it first you might find it useful ;)
Originally posted by StevieS
If you disinfect it first you might find it useful ;)
I should probably clarify that I make the distinction between the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and the Living Greyhawk Journal as being legitimate sources of Greyhawk information, whereas the Living Greyhawk campaign/game/triads, etc. are not.
This is mainly due to the fact that I've found most material by the triads to be ill-thought out, ill-considered tripe. I wish a plague upon the Living Greyhawk campaign and all it's players and especially the triads. It has, IMO, done more to kill Greyhawk than anything else has in it's entire history.
I happen to enjoy LG and I think it has actually done well to keep GH limping along.
P.S. - The TOEE is buggy, and yes it is hack-n-slash, but the original TOEE PnP module was...100% hack-n-slash too. That's the way Gary liked 'em and that's the way he made 'em.
Devin (playing in GH before a lot of you were born!)
Originally posted by Delglath
I should probably clarify that I make the distinction between the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and the Living Greyhawk Journal as being legitimate sources of Greyhawk information, whereas the Living Greyhawk campaign/game/triads, etc. are not.
This is mainly due to the fact that I've found most material by the triads to be ill-thought out, ill-considered tripe.
In some cases, I agree.
In others though, such as Keoland (for example, there are others) have extremely useful websites with a wealth of info that is just as valuable to the home DM (with some minor adjustments to reconcile LG Canon and Homebrew Canon) as it is to an LG player.
Other sites make me wish there was some sort of global policing on bad websites to shut them down.
P.S. - The TOEE is buggy, and yes it is hack-n-slash, but the original TOEE PnP module was...100% hack-n-slash too. That's the way Gary liked 'em and that's the way he made 'em
Absolute out and out BALONEY. In the liner notes for The Temple itself (inside the module) Gary gave warnings for PCs who thought that going into the Temple and slaughtering everything in site was a good idea. The idea was NOT to kill everyone and everything. Disruption of the operation does NOT mean killing everyone you think is a bad guy.
There are suggestions for INFILTRATING the Temple....not blowing it sky high. The ONLY reason that the Temple's inhabitants were butchered in the canon version of the events in World of Greyhawk was because Lord Robilar got involved. A 15th level Fighter is going to reduce the place to tiny bits of goo...which is what Robilar did. Tenser and some of the other original Greyhawkers got involved as well.
Sorry...as I stated on the ToEE boards, if you wanna play your Paladin as Lawful Stupid....be my guest. The chunks of unidenitifiable matter that are left of your corpse will be a reminder to others that using your head is how to play D&D (and how Gary and Dave wanted it played)
Lawful Stupid? No. Lawful Impulsive? Maybe. Lawful Overzealous? Sure, why not.
Ahh....the heady days of 2nd Edition and the stupid rules governing Lawful Good Paladins.....heh. :D
Originally posted by Keolander
The chunks of unidenitifiable matter that are left of your corpse will be a reminder to others that using your head is how to play D&D (and how Gary and Dave wanted it played)
Have you ever read any of Gygax's stories about the old games? His play style was very hack-n-slash.
I'm guessing that that warning in ToEE and the similar one in TOmb of Horrors were added simply to give you advance notice of the sheer lethality of those two adventures.
Originally posted by chatdemon
Have you ever read any of Gygax's stories about the old games? His play style was very hack-n-slash.
Heh, more like 'Fireball-n-disintegrate', given his predisposition towards magi