Clerics of Kiri-Jolith control the KoS - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Clerics of Kiri-Jolith control the KoS

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ferratus
Sep 21, 2003 5:00:31 Okay, I was getting suspicious when I veiwed the fact that the Knights of the Rose now require a divine spellcaster level and gain spell progression. That effectively means that all three orders are thick with clerics, and the upper echelons of the Order are completely dominated by them. After all, we are never going to see a high ranking knight described without these cleric or mystic levels.

But, since reading the Age of Mortals, I'm afraid I'm absolutely convinced of it. Observe:

1. With the exception of Linsha Majere (and we know what her relationship with the high command is like), no Sword or Rose knight has been described as a Mystic. They all have at least one level of cleric. There has also been no Rose or Sword knight described without levels in the appropriate prestige classes.

2. During Knight's Trials, they are now presided over by the Grand Master, the High Clerist, and the High Justice. As you can see, the authority which governs the Knights of the Crown is completely absent. As you can also see, that means that a Knight faces a trio of clerics who pass judgement on him. After all, the Grandmaster, Liam Erling, is a Rose Knight. (Ftr5/Clr1/Knight of the Crown 5/Knight of the Sword 5/Knight of the Rose 5). He's an 10th level fighter/11th level Cleric folks.

3. Solamnic Auxillary Mages are now only allowed to gain their magic from Solinari. If that doesn't sound like a clerical demand, I don't know what does. Don't worry though, all the sorcerers will find a home in Raye Oakensheild's camp.

So basically what we are left with, is that clerics hold all of the top military ranks, all of the judicial power, and basically a tighter grip over the entire organization than a mistress on her old lover's credit card.

A good foundation for my campaign reclaiming the identity and heritage of the Solamnic Knighthood, so Sovereign Press... I thank you. If this is entirely unintentional, and you're a little piqued that I'm drawing these conclusions... well what can I say? The story is telling itself from the evidence I've been given.
#2
Dragonhelm
Sep 21, 2003 8:21:18 The Solamnic Knighthood has always had a strong clerical tradition, and I'm glad that they're described as such currently. Prior to the Chaos War, I'm sure you would have also seen clerics of Paladine and, to a lesser extent, Habbakuk.

I don't think the Solamnic Knights ever got used to mysticism, especially being so wrapped up in tradition as they were. Perhaps it was a "necessary evil", especially when one needed a healer. Linsha, obviously, is not your average knight.

My theory is that not all knights have levels in the various prestige classes. This is especially true in the Time of Darkness, and holds true to knights who do not show the purity of heart as others do. However, I would say that those in charge do have levels.
#3
zombiegleemax
Sep 21, 2003 10:34:17 Just as a quick aside, Dragonhelm, do you know whether the post WoS Crown Knights still revere Habbakuk as their patron? The DLCS seems to suggest, to my dismay, that all the Knights have thrown in with Kiri-Jolith alone. This would be disappointing considering that Habbakuk was involved with the Knights of the Crown from the very beginning of the Order. There is a Kingfisher among the Knighthood's symbols for a reason, after all.
#4
Dragonhelm
Sep 21, 2003 11:08:39
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
Just as a quick aside, Dragonhelm, do you know whether the post WoS Crown Knights still revere Habbakuk as their patron? The DLCS seems to suggest, to my dismay, that all the Knights have thrown in with Kiri-Jolith alone. This would be disappointing considering that Habbakuk was involved with the Knights of the Crown from the very beginning of the Order. There is a Kingfisher among the Knighthood's symbols for a reason, after all.

I don't know, to be honest.

I imagine Kiri-Jolith would be taking Paladine's place as the god revered by the Rose Knights (although Paladine won't be far from their thoughts).

As you say, Habbakuk has traditionally been the god revered by the Crown Knights, and I hope that this will continue.

Perhaps more light will be shed on this in the Holy Orders of the Stars book.
#5
Matthew_L._Martin
Sep 21, 2003 11:33:55
Originally posted by Dragonhelm

I don't think the Solamnic Knights ever got used to mysticism, especially being so wrapped up in tradition as they were. Perhaps it was a "necessary evil", especially when one needed a healer. Linsha, obviously, is not your average knight.

Actually, according to Heroes of Hope, the Knights thoroughly embraced mysticism. A group of Rose and Sword Knights was sent to the Citadel of Light after the promulgation of the Revised Measure, and after learning the new magic, were all inducted into the Order of the Rose and charged with teaching mysticism and thus strengthening the spiritual heart of the Knighthood.

"In nearly every Solamnic circle . . . Knights of the Rose teach aspirants the way of the heart. This training also includes education about how the magic of mysticism fits into the Knights' history, beliefs, and traditions. Grand Master Ehrling believes that only by combining an understanding of the past with the spiritual training of the heart can the Knighthood's revitalization continue." (Heroes of Hope, The Magic Within, pp. 39--40).

"On Sancrist Isle, members of the Grand Circle practice their magical skills or teach for at least one hour every day. . . . The Grand Master himself participates in the daily training almost without exception." (ibid., p. 40)

Matthew L. Martin
#6
Dragonhelm
Sep 21, 2003 12:18:23 Good points, Matthew. Also, the KoS have had 38 years without the gods of good.

However, I would counter this with the idea that the KoS have a tradition that dates back centuries upon centuries. Even in adapting mysticism and showing how it fits in with the overall grand scheme of things, I'm sure it is done in such a way as to incorporate the gods of good somehow. Their faith is similar to that of the mystics of the Citadel of Light.

With the return of the gods, I see many KoS switching to the worship of Kiri-Jolith. Some may remain mystics, sure. Yet overall, I think their hearts and their faith lie with the patron gods of the knighthood.
#7
zombiegleemax
Sep 21, 2003 12:37:07 I personally don't see the problem with the KoS having Kiri-Jolith as the current sole patron. His portfolio is war, courage, and honor, and his write up says he is the deity of glory, honor, obedience, justice, and righteous warfare. All things the KoS are supposed to embody. Admittedly, the switch to one god may be the change in philosophy that will lead the Solamnics to support a King of Solamnia, and to prevent such, Majere would be a good choice to join Kijo the Blade, as his portfolio is that of discipline and loyalty. Habbakuk always struck me as an odd choice, since he represents animals, water, and passion. I have always assumed he was one of the original triad simply because he and KJ are brothers, the sons of Paladine. The knights have never struck me as being nature lovers. Besides, Habbakuk may be out of the KoS for the time being simply by his own choice. Look at what the Dragon Overlords have done to Ansalon, environment wise. He may have a lot of work ahead of him, and figures he won't have much time to play with the KoS, so he has, maybe, temporarily left them to his brother while he tackles what he considers more important issues. Either way, I can see the both of them inviting Majere to form a new triad, simply because he was a valued friend and advisor to their father.
#8
khirak_vil_dup
Sep 21, 2003 12:57:56 I hate how the Solamnic Knights have been reduced to one patron Deity. I personally intend to have the Rose Knights uphold the ideals of Paladine (honoring the pantheon of good as a whole, but selecting domains from Paladines list now that he stepped down). Also, just because they had to take levels of cleric to qualify for the prestige classes does not mean they are clerics per se. Afterall, they are not restricted on weapons like a cleric is. They are more like a paladin than a cleric once they start taking the prestige classes. Thats my view anyways.
#9
ferratus
Sep 21, 2003 13:01:05
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The Solamnic Knighthood has always had a strong clerical tradition, and I'm glad that they're described as such currently. Prior to the Chaos War, I'm sure you would have also seen clerics of Paladine and, to a lesser extent, Habbakuk.

Oh they've always had a strong clerical tradition, but they were not a clerical order. They had a clerical branch, the Knights of the Sword, but back in prior editions, when one became a Knight of the Rose his clerical days were behind him, and one could become a Rose Knight without picking up any spellcasting powers (if one switched out before becoming a "Knight Clerist" which frankly most did. After all, you were better off increasing your THAC0 than gaining a couple puny spells. It is the same in 3e, where it is better to increase your BAB rather than gain a couple puny spells and some incredibly minor abilities that don't do you much good in the long run (save for perhaps the charisma bonus).

The Knights have always been more aristocrats than clerics, which is why the novel readers were taken off guard by their clerical incarnation in 3e. Now however, they are more like a catholic monastic order, with the Crown Knights serving as lay brothers, and the Sword and Rose Knights serving as the ordained preists.
#10
Dragonhelm
Sep 21, 2003 13:35:03 Matthew, I wanted to bring to your attention a passage in Age of Mortals. P. 186.

"Although some Knights of the Sword turned to mysticism in order to compensate for their loss of divine magic, almost all of them have willingly accepted Kiri-Jolith into their hearts once more and have received his divine strength in return, led by their High Clerist, the spiritual commander of the Solamnic Knights."

This is under the Kiri-Jolith entry. It says here that he is "one of the patron deities of the Knights of Solamnia..."

Granted, Habbakuk's entry is more focused on nature, but he is still listed as the Fisher King in both Age of Mortals and the DLCS.

Just some added info.
#11
ferratus
Sep 21, 2003 14:50:58 I've got to thinking about how the embrace of mysticism has led to their current state.

I think we can all agree that you didn't need to be a cleric during the WotL or beforehand to be a Rose Knight, even if you disagree with me that the Knights of the Sword were the only clerical branch before the cataclysm as well. Lord Soth, after all, has never struck me as being devout enough to be a cleric, even during his good years. Certainly, I've seen no evidence of clerical magics being granted by Takhisis or anyone else during the War of the Lance. All powers he used (such as wall of ice, fireball, and the power words) came from the Death Knight Template.

Anyway, as I said, you didn't need to be a cleric before the WotL. It would have been impossible, given that there were no clerics.
Now, they may have readily converted after the War of the Lance (what happened to those who didn't?) but what is really interesting is what happens to the Knighthood after the Chaos War.

It is not surprising that the Knights embraced mysticism so readily and fervently. After all, they had just rewritten the previously invoilate Measure, and seem to have lost all traditional notions of honour (see Corruption of Clandestine Circles thread). Thus, needing something to beleive in, the philosophy of the citadel of light, with its moral authority, filled the vaccum.

Keep in mind as well, that the "revised measure" basically turned the Order of the Rose from an aristocratic birthright to a nepotistic cabal. After all, what mattered was sponsorship and approval now and nothing else. This nepotistic cabal, which Linsha was inducted to because she was Palin's daughter and a good citadel of light initiate, favoured the sponsorship of mysticism for the reason given above. Thus, Rose Knights and Sword Knights start looking pretty much the same.

Then Kiri-Jolith wanders back in, and since Goldmoon is dead, they decide that he is a good concrete authority to cling to, and most become his clerics. The mystics that didn't wind up like Linsha, overtly tolerated but gradually being forced out.

Thoughts?
#12
cam_banks
Sep 22, 2003 8:15:25 The Gods have changed tactics somewhat following the War of Souls. They're in a precarious state - many of the mortals of Krynn don't want anything to do with them, content to remain reliant on their own abilities. They don't have the omniscient foresight that they used to have now that Krynn has been relocated in the River of Time. All they have is their power, the ability to grant power to mortals, and thousands of years of tradition and history to try and leverage. The promise of a safe conduct through the Gate of Souls might be another aspect of it, but even that doesn't seem to be terribly convincing.

Kiri-Jolith is in a position where his father, Paladine, no longer heads the Gods of Light and his rival Sargonnas is enjoying considerable success with his minotaurs. KJ needs to actively gain followers and worship, reclaiming as many of the adherants of Good that he can in order to stem the flowing tide of evil which was set into motion with the War of Souls. To this end, it seems only natural that he turned to the Knights of Solamnia.

Habbakuk remains a revered deity for the Knighthood, but in the current era one wonders whether he has any active role in granting spells to the Knights. It's possible that a Knight could qualify with ranger as a core class and achieve spellcasting with Habbakuk's druidical blessing, but that's a much longer route than the straight KJ cleric option. Habbakuk isn't Lawful Good, either, so it appears his primary function is to coordinate his efforts with his brother Kiri-Jolith and support the knights either indirectly (through the boon of influencing warhorses and other animals in their favor, safe passage through wilderness for those who entreat him, etc) or directly (with ranger auxiliaries).

The Knighthood truly has achieved a new state now that it has embodied both its original knightly virtues and its spiritual component. Under Kiri-Jolith's patronage, without Paladine's temperances, the Knights stand upon the brink of a crusade against evil, one more active and aggressive than conducted in the past. Kiri-Jolith's message in the new era is clear - confront evil and darkness wherever it is found, embrace the tenets of the knighthood, be a model of the Oath and Measure, and serve him faithfully.

Whether this will cause troubles along the line is unsure, but it's obvious that this new direction won't sit well with old-order hardliners or young mysticism-dependent knights. I doubt, however, that many of the former remain untouched by Kiri-Jolith's new vision, nor do I believe that many of the younger knights were that far away from being KJ's servants in the 5th Age anyway. Epiphanies all around!

Cheers,
Cam
#13
zombiegleemax
Sep 22, 2003 9:10:43
Originally posted by Cam Banks

Habbakuk remains a revered deity for the Knighthood, but in the current era one wonders whether he has any active role in granting spells to the Knights. It's possible that a Knight could qualify with ranger as a core class and achieve spellcasting with Habbakuk's druidical blessing, but that's a much longer route than the straight KJ cleric option. Habbakuk isn't Lawful Good, either, so it appears his primary function is to coordinate his efforts with his brother Kiri-Jolith and support the knights either indirectly (through the boon of influencing warhorses and other animals in their favor, safe passage through wilderness for those who entreat him, etc) or directly (with ranger auxiliaries).

Would a Lawful Good fighter/ cleric of Habbakuk also be an acceptable candidate for Knighthood? Such Knights could find a niche in the command of Solamnia's naval forces or the training and management of cavalry. They would also fit in well as guardians of the Solamnic people and country, defending the nation's borders while the Sword Knights go off on Kiri-Jolith's holy crusades.

I have no problem with, in the current post-WoS setting, the great majority of the Order turning to Kiri-Jolith's teachings - but will this zealous majority show tolerance towards those Knights who still hold Habbakuk dearest in their hearts?
#14
cam_banks
Sep 22, 2003 9:31:44
Originally posted by Twilight Herald

I have no problem with, in the current post-WoS setting, the great majority of the Order turning to Kiri-Jolith's teachings - but will this zealous majority show tolerance towards those Knights who still hold Habbakuk dearest in their hearts?

Well, I would allow it. I don't see any reason why you couldn't have a level or two in cleric of Habbakuk rather than Kiri-Jolith. Aaron Tallbow seems like a Habbakuk sort of guy, with his archery skills and whatnot. The only sticking point is the alignment, but given a cleric of Habbakuk could be Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic Good it means that's not a problem.

Cheers,
Cam

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ferratus Sep 21, 2003 5:00:31	Okay, I was getting suspicious when I veiwed the fact that the Knights of the Rose now require a divine spellcaster level and gain spell progression. That effectively means that all three orders are thick with clerics, and the upper echelons of the Order are completely dominated by them. After all, we are never going to see a high ranking knight described without these cleric or mystic levels. But, since reading the Age of Mortals, I'm afraid I'm absolutely convinced of it. Observe: 1. With the exception of Linsha Majere (and we know what her relationship with the high command is like), no Sword or Rose knight has been described as a Mystic. They all have at least one level of cleric. There has also been no Rose or Sword knight described without levels in the appropriate prestige classes. 2. During Knight's Trials, they are now presided over by the Grand Master, the High Clerist, and the High Justice. As you can see, the authority which governs the Knights of the Crown is completely absent. As you can also see, that means that a Knight faces a trio of clerics who pass judgement on him. After all, the Grandmaster, Liam Erling, is a Rose Knight. (Ftr5/Clr1/Knight of the Crown 5/Knight of the Sword 5/Knight of the Rose 5). He's an 10th level fighter/11th level Cleric folks. 3. Solamnic Auxillary Mages are now only allowed to gain their magic from Solinari. If that doesn't sound like a clerical demand, I don't know what does. Don't worry though, all the sorcerers will find a home in Raye Oakensheild's camp. So basically what we are left with, is that clerics hold all of the top military ranks, all of the judicial power, and basically a tighter grip over the entire organization than a mistress on her old lover's credit card. A good foundation for my campaign reclaiming the identity and heritage of the Solamnic Knighthood, so Sovereign Press... I thank you. If this is entirely unintentional, and you're a little piqued that I'm drawing these conclusions... well what can I say? The story is telling itself from the evidence I've been given.
#2 Dragonhelm Sep 21, 2003 8:21:18	The Solamnic Knighthood has always had a strong clerical tradition, and I'm glad that they're described as such currently. Prior to the Chaos War, I'm sure you would have also seen clerics of Paladine and, to a lesser extent, Habbakuk. I don't think the Solamnic Knights ever got used to mysticism, especially being so wrapped up in tradition as they were. Perhaps it was a "necessary evil", especially when one needed a healer. Linsha, obviously, is not your average knight. My theory is that not all knights have levels in the various prestige classes. This is especially true in the Time of Darkness, and holds true to knights who do not show the purity of heart as others do. However, I would say that those in charge do have levels.
#3 zombiegleemax Sep 21, 2003 10:34:17	Just as a quick aside, Dragonhelm, do you know whether the post WoS Crown Knights still revere Habbakuk as their patron? The DLCS seems to suggest, to my dismay, that all the Knights have thrown in with Kiri-Jolith alone. This would be disappointing considering that Habbakuk was involved with the Knights of the Crown from the very beginning of the Order. There is a Kingfisher among the Knighthood's symbols for a reason, after all.
#4 Dragonhelm Sep 21, 2003 11:08:39	Originally posted by Twilight Herald Just as a quick aside, Dragonhelm, do you know whether the post WoS Crown Knights still revere Habbakuk as their patron? The DLCS seems to suggest, to my dismay, that all the Knights have thrown in with Kiri-Jolith alone. This would be disappointing considering that Habbakuk was involved with the Knights of the Crown from the very beginning of the Order. There is a Kingfisher among the Knighthood's symbols for a reason, after all. I don't know, to be honest. I imagine Kiri-Jolith would be taking Paladine's place as the god revered by the Rose Knights (although Paladine won't be far from their thoughts). As you say, Habbakuk has traditionally been the god revered by the Crown Knights, and I hope that this will continue. Perhaps more light will be shed on this in the Holy Orders of the Stars book.
#5 Matthew_L._Martin Sep 21, 2003 11:33:55	Originally posted by Dragonhelm I don't think the Solamnic Knights ever got used to mysticism, especially being so wrapped up in tradition as they were. Perhaps it was a "necessary evil", especially when one needed a healer. Linsha, obviously, is not your average knight. Actually, according to Heroes of Hope, the Knights thoroughly embraced mysticism. A group of Rose and Sword Knights was sent to the Citadel of Light after the promulgation of the Revised Measure, and after learning the new magic, were all inducted into the Order of the Rose and charged with teaching mysticism and thus strengthening the spiritual heart of the Knighthood. "In nearly every Solamnic circle . . . Knights of the Rose teach aspirants the way of the heart. This training also includes education about how the magic of mysticism fits into the Knights' history, beliefs, and traditions. Grand Master Ehrling believes that only by combining an understanding of the past with the spiritual training of the heart can the Knighthood's revitalization continue." (Heroes of Hope, The Magic Within, pp. 39--40). "On Sancrist Isle, members of the Grand Circle practice their magical skills or teach for at least one hour every day. . . . The Grand Master himself participates in the daily training almost without exception." (ibid., p. 40) Matthew L. Martin
#6 Dragonhelm Sep 21, 2003 12:18:23	Good points, Matthew. Also, the KoS have had 38 years without the gods of good. However, I would counter this with the idea that the KoS have a tradition that dates back centuries upon centuries. Even in adapting mysticism and showing how it fits in with the overall grand scheme of things, I'm sure it is done in such a way as to incorporate the gods of good somehow. Their faith is similar to that of the mystics of the Citadel of Light. With the return of the gods, I see many KoS switching to the worship of Kiri-Jolith. Some may remain mystics, sure. Yet overall, I think their hearts and their faith lie with the patron gods of the knighthood.
#7 zombiegleemax Sep 21, 2003 12:37:07	I personally don't see the problem with the KoS having Kiri-Jolith as the current sole patron. His portfolio is war, courage, and honor, and his write up says he is the deity of glory, honor, obedience, justice, and righteous warfare. All things the KoS are supposed to embody. Admittedly, the switch to one god may be the change in philosophy that will lead the Solamnics to support a King of Solamnia, and to prevent such, Majere would be a good choice to join Kijo the Blade, as his portfolio is that of discipline and loyalty. Habbakuk always struck me as an odd choice, since he represents animals, water, and passion. I have always assumed he was one of the original triad simply because he and KJ are brothers, the sons of Paladine. The knights have never struck me as being nature lovers. Besides, Habbakuk may be out of the KoS for the time being simply by his own choice. Look at what the Dragon Overlords have done to Ansalon, environment wise. He may have a lot of work ahead of him, and figures he won't have much time to play with the KoS, so he has, maybe, temporarily left them to his brother while he tackles what he considers more important issues. Either way, I can see the both of them inviting Majere to form a new triad, simply because he was a valued friend and advisor to their father.
#8 khirak_vil_dup Sep 21, 2003 12:57:56	I hate how the Solamnic Knights have been reduced to one patron Deity. I personally intend to have the Rose Knights uphold the ideals of Paladine (honoring the pantheon of good as a whole, but selecting domains from Paladines list now that he stepped down). Also, just because they had to take levels of cleric to qualify for the prestige classes does not mean they are clerics per se. Afterall, they are not restricted on weapons like a cleric is. They are more like a paladin than a cleric once they start taking the prestige classes. Thats my view anyways.
#9 ferratus Sep 21, 2003 13:01:05	Originally posted by Dragonhelm The Solamnic Knighthood has always had a strong clerical tradition, and I'm glad that they're described as such currently. Prior to the Chaos War, I'm sure you would have also seen clerics of Paladine and, to a lesser extent, Habbakuk. Oh they've always had a strong clerical tradition, but they were not a clerical order. They had a clerical branch, the Knights of the Sword, but back in prior editions, when one became a Knight of the Rose his clerical days were behind him, and one could become a Rose Knight without picking up any spellcasting powers (if one switched out before becoming a "Knight Clerist" which frankly most did. After all, you were better off increasing your THAC0 than gaining a couple puny spells. It is the same in 3e, where it is better to increase your BAB rather than gain a couple puny spells and some incredibly minor abilities that don't do you much good in the long run (save for perhaps the charisma bonus). The Knights have always been more aristocrats than clerics, which is why the novel readers were taken off guard by their clerical incarnation in 3e. Now however, they are more like a catholic monastic order, with the Crown Knights serving as lay brothers, and the Sword and Rose Knights serving as the ordained preists.
#10 Dragonhelm Sep 21, 2003 13:35:03	Matthew, I wanted to bring to your attention a passage in Age of Mortals. P. 186. "Although some Knights of the Sword turned to mysticism in order to compensate for their loss of divine magic, almost all of them have willingly accepted Kiri-Jolith into their hearts once more and have received his divine strength in return, led by their High Clerist, the spiritual commander of the Solamnic Knights." This is under the Kiri-Jolith entry. It says here that he is "one of the patron deities of the Knights of Solamnia..." Granted, Habbakuk's entry is more focused on nature, but he is still listed as the Fisher King in both Age of Mortals and the DLCS. Just some added info.
#11 ferratus Sep 21, 2003 14:50:58	I've got to thinking about how the embrace of mysticism has led to their current state. I think we can all agree that you didn't need to be a cleric during the WotL or beforehand to be a Rose Knight, even if you disagree with me that the Knights of the Sword were the only clerical branch before the cataclysm as well. Lord Soth, after all, has never struck me as being devout enough to be a cleric, even during his good years. Certainly, I've seen no evidence of clerical magics being granted by Takhisis or anyone else during the War of the Lance. All powers he used (such as wall of ice, fireball, and the power words) came from the Death Knight Template. Anyway, as I said, you didn't need to be a cleric before the WotL. It would have been impossible, given that there were no clerics. Now, they may have readily converted after the War of the Lance (what happened to those who didn't?) but what is really interesting is what happens to the Knighthood after the Chaos War. It is not surprising that the Knights embraced mysticism so readily and fervently. After all, they had just rewritten the previously invoilate Measure, and seem to have lost all traditional notions of honour (see Corruption of Clandestine Circles thread). Thus, needing something to beleive in, the philosophy of the citadel of light, with its moral authority, filled the vaccum. Keep in mind as well, that the "revised measure" basically turned the Order of the Rose from an aristocratic birthright to a nepotistic cabal. After all, what mattered was sponsorship and approval now and nothing else. This nepotistic cabal, which Linsha was inducted to because she was Palin's daughter and a good citadel of light initiate, favoured the sponsorship of mysticism for the reason given above. Thus, Rose Knights and Sword Knights start looking pretty much the same. Then Kiri-Jolith wanders back in, and since Goldmoon is dead, they decide that he is a good concrete authority to cling to, and most become his clerics. The mystics that didn't wind up like Linsha, overtly tolerated but gradually being forced out. Thoughts?
#12 cam_banks Sep 22, 2003 8:15:25	The Gods have changed tactics somewhat following the War of Souls. They're in a precarious state - many of the mortals of Krynn don't want anything to do with them, content to remain reliant on their own abilities. They don't have the omniscient foresight that they used to have now that Krynn has been relocated in the River of Time. All they have is their power, the ability to grant power to mortals, and thousands of years of tradition and history to try and leverage. The promise of a safe conduct through the Gate of Souls might be another aspect of it, but even that doesn't seem to be terribly convincing. Kiri-Jolith is in a position where his father, Paladine, no longer heads the Gods of Light and his rival Sargonnas is enjoying considerable success with his minotaurs. KJ needs to actively gain followers and worship, reclaiming as many of the adherants of Good that he can in order to stem the flowing tide of evil which was set into motion with the War of Souls. To this end, it seems only natural that he turned to the Knights of Solamnia. Habbakuk remains a revered deity for the Knighthood, but in the current era one wonders whether he has any active role in granting spells to the Knights. It's possible that a Knight could qualify with ranger as a core class and achieve spellcasting with Habbakuk's druidical blessing, but that's a much longer route than the straight KJ cleric option. Habbakuk isn't Lawful Good, either, so it appears his primary function is to coordinate his efforts with his brother Kiri-Jolith and support the knights either indirectly (through the boon of influencing warhorses and other animals in their favor, safe passage through wilderness for those who entreat him, etc) or directly (with ranger auxiliaries). The Knighthood truly has achieved a new state now that it has embodied both its original knightly virtues and its spiritual component. Under Kiri-Jolith's patronage, without Paladine's temperances, the Knights stand upon the brink of a crusade against evil, one more active and aggressive than conducted in the past. Kiri-Jolith's message in the new era is clear - confront evil and darkness wherever it is found, embrace the tenets of the knighthood, be a model of the Oath and Measure, and serve him faithfully. Whether this will cause troubles along the line is unsure, but it's obvious that this new direction won't sit well with old-order hardliners or young mysticism-dependent knights. I doubt, however, that many of the former remain untouched by Kiri-Jolith's new vision, nor do I believe that many of the younger knights were that far away from being KJ's servants in the 5th Age anyway. Epiphanies all around! Cheers, Cam
#13 zombiegleemax Sep 22, 2003 9:10:43	Originally posted by Cam Banks Habbakuk remains a revered deity for the Knighthood, but in the current era one wonders whether he has any active role in granting spells to the Knights. It's possible that a Knight could qualify with ranger as a core class and achieve spellcasting with Habbakuk's druidical blessing, but that's a much longer route than the straight KJ cleric option. Habbakuk isn't Lawful Good, either, so it appears his primary function is to coordinate his efforts with his brother Kiri-Jolith and support the knights either indirectly (through the boon of influencing warhorses and other animals in their favor, safe passage through wilderness for those who entreat him, etc) or directly (with ranger auxiliaries). Would a Lawful Good fighter/ cleric of Habbakuk also be an acceptable candidate for Knighthood? Such Knights could find a niche in the command of Solamnia's naval forces or the training and management of cavalry. They would also fit in well as guardians of the Solamnic people and country, defending the nation's borders while the Sword Knights go off on Kiri-Jolith's holy crusades. I have no problem with, in the current post-WoS setting, the great majority of the Order turning to Kiri-Jolith's teachings - but will this zealous majority show tolerance towards those Knights who still hold Habbakuk dearest in their hearts?
#14 cam_banks Sep 22, 2003 9:31:44	Originally posted by Twilight Herald I have no problem with, in the current post-WoS setting, the great majority of the Order turning to Kiri-Jolith's teachings - but will this zealous majority show tolerance towards those Knights who still hold Habbakuk dearest in their hearts? Well, I would allow it. I don't see any reason why you couldn't have a level or two in cleric of Habbakuk rather than Kiri-Jolith. Aaron Tallbow seems like a Habbakuk sort of guy, with his archery skills and whatnot. The only sticking point is the alignment, but given a cleric of Habbakuk could be Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic Good it means that's not a problem. Cheers, Cam