Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 21, 2003 20:40:00	Specifically how do they differ from the Forgotten realms Drow. 1. Are their cities similar politically, to something you might find under Faerun? 2. Do they have the same pantheon: Lolth, Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee, Eilistraee etc? 3. Are they one of the dominant life forms in their Underdark? 4. Who are their primary enemies? Besides other Elves.
#2 Argon Sep 21, 2003 21:35:12	Well i don't know if you'll believe this or not. But the drow were originally a Greyhawk creation. The drow like many other things Greyhawk specific were raped by the Forgotten Realm setting. So to answer your question yes their very similar. But they have their differences. Their is a land known as The Valley of the mage. This is not the only place drow are encountered but their is a difference. One the drow associate with a human mage that they either owe fealty too or work with closely. Second these same drow work with a subspecies of elf known as Valley Elves(no they will not gag you with a spoon). Valley Elves are not evil they simply accept all members of their race. Now with that said their is also another species of elf known as the Grugach which are extreme isolationists , even attacking members of their subspecies or other members of grugach tribes which would cross into their territory. Now with all I said aboout the drow so far you could pick up more about them at canonfire.com. Which has a tun full of useful information at your disposal. I on the other hand have decided to run my version of Greyhawk without any drow. That's right a world without drow, it works for Krynn. Their are dark elves, but they are simply elves of other subspecies which have chosen a path opposite their elven tradition (not necessarliy evil, and not dark skinned underground elves either). You can read my Elves of Oerth article at http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=346. You decide which one you like better. Enjoy!
#3 zombiegleemax Sep 22, 2003 4:42:19	1. Are their cities similar politically, to something you might find under Faerun? Depends, if you base it off the origonal modules like Queen of the Demonweb Pits (1E) where they where detailed by Gary Gygax, then yep, lots of difference. Places like Erelhei Cinlu where dark cities of decadence and trade first and despotic slave traders and warmongers second. Though that can vary day by day The infighting is slightly different- 2. Do they have the same pantheon: Lolth, Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee, Eilistraee etc? Lolth is a Greyhawk 'diety', the others dont really exist in Greyhawk, they where later FR fabrications and about the only other major religion was the 'Elder Elemental God' who is something of a front for something worse. They tend not to like each other much and its a 'cold war' of attrition between the two. It is also conjecture as to Lolth being either a demon queen or a demon demigod, as to the extent of her power in comparison to other elven dieties. You will find that Drow are just an evil subspecies of olve rather than a race unto their own. 3. Are they one of the dominant life forms in their Underdark? Duergar, Mindflayers, Kua-Toa, Derro and others seem to be kinda plentiful on the encounter tables if I recall. As for dominant, they like to think so and dont brook any argument as to their ultimate superiority over anyone as a species. 4. Who are their primary enemies? Besides other Elves. The above mentioned and meddling/manipulated adventurers Drow in Greyhawk operate behind a screen of misinformation and through underlings, they dont tend to take a hand in things directly, after all, who cares about dead underlings to do something dangerous or risky. You just get more if the weaklings fail. As for other elves being a primary enemy, the surface elves are either too occupied on the surface with more immediate threats or withdrawn into their own lands to bother most drow.
#4 zombiegleemax Sep 22, 2003 5:17:03	I will check out the cannon fire site.
#5 Brom_Blackforge Sep 22, 2003 14:33:50	One comment regarding drow deities: I don't see why the FR drow pantheon couldn't be used in Greyhawk. After all, the demi-human pantheons were originally transplanted wholesale from Greyhawk to FR - no reason why they can't be moved back, even if there have been new additions since. There was an article in Dragon #298 about the drow in Greyhawk, and it referred to some of these other drow deities (Kiaransalee in particular). In any event, to echo what has been said on these boards time and time again, you can do whatever you want in your campaign.
#6 zombiegleemax Sep 22, 2003 18:32:21	I am pretty sure I have that issue, so I will check it out. Thanks.
#7 zombiegleemax Sep 26, 2003 12:38:36	Originally posted by mjolnir1066 2. Do they have the same pantheon: Lolth, Yes, Lolth was the original drow goddess/demon queen when the Drow were introduced in Greyhawk. Vhaeraun, Perhaps. I don't use him, because my Drow society isn't big enough to support that many gods, and I think the Drow society should be tyrannical enough that any faction that directly opposes Lolth would be rooted out and destroyed. Kiaransalee, Sure, every believable culture needs a death goddess. Make her a subordinate of Lolth, like she is in FR and it works fine. Not to say that she enjoys being a subordinate, buts that's how it is. Eilistraee No. Greyhawk has no goodly aligned Drow, and I see no reason to change this.
#8 zombiegleemax Sep 26, 2003 19:42:34	Although it's antithetical, not to mention heretical, to do this, I'm with Argon on the alternate view of dark elves. Screw canon. The drow have been forever spoilt by Four-rotten Smells. Besides which, the notion of 'dark elves' as portrayed in settings like Dragonlance (Dalamar, for instance), has so much more power and conflict inherent in it that it makes for a far more interesting division in the race and setting. It makes a much more powerful statement about the nature of elves and seperates them and makes them more alien than humans. A dark elf is, quite simply, an evil elf who has been exiled from his homeland. It's so simple and yet carries with it some very powerful, emotional encumbrance and says a lot about the elves and the elf. For instance, no matter the crime, a life is a life and elves hold all life as precious, therefore killing another elf for a crime would be abhorrant for them. On the flipside, the elf, though evil, is still very much an elf and so (usually) has a love for beautiful and natural things as well as elven society and culture. Exiling an elf, therefore, is a terrible punishment as it takes them away from all that they are and is a constant reminder of their crime. It also allows for them to redeem themselves, a hope all elves share whenever one is banished. Much cooler, IMO, than simply making a race of inherently evil beings who worship a spider goddess... geez... been there, done that...
#9 Argon Sep 26, 2003 21:52:05	It makes a much more powerful statement about the nature of elves and seperates them and makes them more alien than humans. A dark elf is, quite simply, an evil elf who has been exiled from his homeland. It's so simple and yet carries with it some very powerful, emotional encumbrance and says a lot about the elves and the elf. For instance, no matter the crime, a life is a life and elves hold all life as precious, therefore killing another elf for a crime would be abhorrant for them. On the flipside, the elf, though evil, is still very much an elf and so (usually) has a love for beautiful and natural things as well as elven society and culture. Exiling an elf, therefore, is a terrible punishment as it takes them away from all that they are and is a constant reminder of their crime. It also allows for them to redeem themselves, a hope all elves share whenever one is banished. Yes finally some one who sees my vision.
#10 Halberkill Sep 29, 2003 17:03:24	Well, there were Drow in Dragonlance also, Raistlin had to defeat one in his tests. Drow were dark elves, but not all dark elves were drow. Halber
#11 Argon Sep 29, 2003 17:44:18	Their were no drow as a sub-race in Dragonlance just like their were no orcs in Dragonlance either. I don't know if anything has changed with the new campaign setting box set. But since first edition and even in second edition their was no drow sub-race,nor was their orcs, nor was their playable draconians like they have now. You may wish to re-read Raistlin's test let me know where the dark skinned white-haired individuals show up in it's text. If you don't believe me try asking long time fans of Dragonlance or better yet try sage advice or hope for a response from the author's.
#12 Brom_Blackforge Sep 30, 2003 8:58:05	Originally posted by Delglath Much cooler, IMO, than simply making a race of inherently evil beings who worship a spider goddess... geez... been there, done that... The way to make "canon" drow cool is to overcome the bland stereotype reflected in this kind of sentiment. Any society can be interesting and complex, if you spend the time to make it that way. Who says all drow must be evil Lolth-worshippers? Certainly, the structure of their society predisposes them to be that way, and that same structure makes it very likely that any dissenters would meet a swift end, but does that mean that they all like it? Why not introduce a faction of good drow (and even Eilistraee)? And even the evil ones certainly don't all get along well with each other. For instance, the article in Dragon #298 did a good job in conveying the conflicts between the dominant noble houses. And you can have evil elves among the surface races without eliminating the drow. What makes them interesting - surface dwellers and drow alike - is giving them a reason for being evil. Just saying they're born that way is a cop-out, and no, it's not very interesting. But hey, in your campaign, do what you want.
#13 Halberkill Sep 30, 2003 14:08:15	Originally posted by Argon Their were no drow as a sub-race in Dragonlance just like their were no orcs in Dragonlance either. I don't know if anything has changed with the new campaign setting box set. But since first edition and even in second edition their was no drow sub-race,nor was their orcs, nor was their playable draconians like they have now. You may wish to re-read Raistlin's test let me know where the dark skinned white-haired individuals show up in it's text. If you don't believe me try asking long time fans of Dragonlance or better yet try sage advice or hope for a response from the author's. I am a long time Dragonlance fan. There was only one drow that he encountered. I think it was the last part of his test in the tower. I can't even remember the book it came from as there are so many, let alone the page numbers. Mayhaps this was a mistake on the author's part, as one book which I do remember, "Weasel's Luck", had a half-orc in it, which is very improbable being there are no orcs in DL to make half-orcs. I have read that there are no orcs in DL, but I have not read anywhere that there are no Drow in DL. Besides this is a Greyhawk forum. Back on topic. In the Gord books, the Drow also worshipped the Demon Prince Grazzt. Also Eclavdra was sort of a "Neutral Evil" drow who got it on with Gord. Halber