It's really, really annoying and unnecessary to have five countries in the Flaneass with two names between them. Do we really need three Uleks and two Urnsts? My players are constantly forgetting not only which one is which but which one they're currently in! Even as the GM, I cannot for the life of me manage to keep the County, Principality, Duchy, etc seperate in my mind consistantly.
Would it be too much to ask to ditch this silly and confusing approach and give each country on the map its own name in a future product? It would save me a lot of headaches and confusion.
heh heh
Halber
Wow, Yamo, I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic. I hope the latter.
Nope. Completely serious. You must admit, the setting gains nothing by having so many countries with such similar names. All it does is make it more difficult to keep them all straight. It would be smarter design to give them unique names for ease of use.
Such a change could easily be explained in setting terms, as well. Not all the modern nations in the Greyhawk setting were always known by the names the are today. Perhaps the Urnst and Ulek states (or just their rulers) simply decided to assert their individuality a little more by taking more unique titles for each of their realms. There's plenty of historical precident for such a thing. Look at how many name changes Russia alone went through in the last century on Earth.
If you don't look at it in terms of tradition for tradition's sake, it really is a more sensible and elegant way to handle it.
For stuff set in 591, the nations are different. If WotC ever decides to "fast forward" the world, I would probably suggest trimming or merging a handful of countries, and I suspect the Uleks and Urnsts would be first on the list.
--Erik
If you want nations to be named conveniently, use Faerun. Political forces are what drive the naming of countries in Greyhawk, not the artificial conventions of the settings users.
Now, if you have a hard time with the naming, I suggest YOU do something about it. Have Turrosh Mak find some source of power that enables him to send more troops into the Ulek states, forcing them to work together against the common threat and in so doing, require a Field General to oversee all military operations and then, in fit of pique at the political machinations of the various states, have him perform a coup and join the states as one, the Kingdom of Ulek, united against the goblinoid armies.
Or whatever takes your fancy. Instead of whinging to the writers, whose hands are tied, do something about it yourself, in your own campaign. Mould it to your liking. That's what Greyhawk is for... it's your world, do with it what you will.
There are many real instances of countries, provinces really, sharing part of their name. Why the need for such a gratuitous change?
While I certainly think a number of political changes are needed, changing names just for the sake of it is hardly a good basis for developing a setting.
If it is a problem you can fix it quickly as the DM. A dynastic marriage can unite the Urnst states. The cost of the ongoing Wars with Turosh Mak could bankrupt the Ulek states. Since Keoland has given up its imperial policies, they could rejoin Keoland. Personally, I hate both of these possibilities, but they would remove the problem for your players.
You mean aside from an aura of potential historical accuracy and an increase in the feeling of immersion in something that really truly could have evolved over centuries? That's one of GH's strengths, if you ask me.
Seriously, though, I think having multiple Urnsts and Uleks adds to the "feel" of the setting. Although I still can't keep straight what races dominate which Ulek...
But the other posters have a point. The states of Ulek were originally a single people and in a sense still are the same nation, but three distinct, independent political entities. Same goes for Urnst. The "official" titles of the North Kingdom and Ahlissa both imply association with the Aerdy. As others have said, no one confuses North Dakota with South Dakota, or British Columbia with Columbia. I think it's just an issue of familarity. Once you and your players have a bit more experience with the setting, you'll wonder why you ever suggested such a silly thing.Before 1989, it was relly confusing: Did I live in west or east germany? It was really a mess, none of my classmates in scool could remember these silly name conventions. Federal repulic of germany? German democratic republic?
Why couldn't they find unique names for both countries?
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;)
.....1. For the writers to play the game. You know, D&D. The system we are supposed to be playing when using the setting. Using the same system as we are would really help.
2. For the writers to play the SAME game. You know, 3.5. Not 3E. Not 3.5 plus a bunch of option books still in playtest. Not the preliminary version of D&D 4. But 3.5. Using the same version of the same system would help even more.
3. Fort the writers to play the setting. You know, Greyhawk. It doesn't matter all that much if it is LG, FtA GH, FutureHawk, CthuluHawk, or any other sort of Greyhawk. But have an active campaign set in the world.
If they could put those together first it would be a really significant advance for all products that might be written for the setting.
Originally posted by Samwise
The change I'd REALLY like to see?
1. For the writers to play the game. You know, D&D. The system we are supposed to be playing when using the setting. Using the same system as we are would really help.
You want them to use a 2e/Hackmaster hybrid for future Greyhawk material?
woohoo!
:D
Originally posted by Erik Mona
That's assuming there will be future products.
For stuff set in 591, the nations are different. If WotC ever decides to "fast forward" the world, I would probably suggest trimming or merging a handful of countries, and I suspect the Uleks and Urnsts would be first on the list.
--Erik
Don't feel like you need to consolidate countries. The three Uleks and two Urnsts never bothered me. Judging by the posts, I'd say that most people are able to differentiate them without difficulty.
I'll agree though that when there are future Greyhawk products, the people involved in producing them should be people who know and care about the setting. If the people involved come from different sides of one of the great canon debates, then include both viewpoints as variants. I'd rather have lots of options than none at all.
I realise that they're independent states but so was the County of Sunndi, which declared full independence from the Great Kingdom and became a kingdom following the wars. In my view, the least complicated part of it all is the names!
Alternately, refer to the state by its ruler or its capital city as often as possible.
"Jurnre" is actually the archaic name for the County Ulek region. It wouldn't be hard to come up with canon-friendly alternate names.
http://chivalricorders.org/nobility/holyroman/hreimpas.htm
Of which a sample of the states/fiefs:
i Nassau-Usingen
ii Nassau-Weilburg
iii Nassau-Saarbrücken
iv Solms-Branfels
v Solms-Lich
vi Solms-Hohen-Solms
vii Solms-Rödelheim
viii Solms-Laubach
ix Isenburg-Birstein
x Isenburg-Büdingen-Meerholz-Wächtersbach
xi Stollberg-Gerdern-Ortenberg
xii Stollberg-Stollberg
xiii Stollberg-Wernigerode
xiv Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg
xv Sayn-Wittgenstein-Wittgenstein
xvi Wild- und Rheingraf zu Grumbach
xvii Wild- und Rheingraf zu Rheingrafenstein
xviii Leiningen-Hartenburg
xix Leiningen-Heidesheim and Leningen-Guntersblum
xx Westerburg Christophsche Linine
xxi Westerburg Georgische Linine
xxii Reussen von Plauen
xxiii Schönburg
xxiv Oretenburg
xxv Crichingen
And for the full frightening complexity of it all in one pic:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~deubadnw/history/maps/d1547.jpg
If you're having problems - stick the Darlene map up at every session and soon all that info will sink in by osmosis. If that doesn't work - get smarter players. :D
P.
Don't feel like you need to consolidate countries. The three Uleks and two Urnsts never bothered me. Judging by the posts, I'd say that most people are able to differentiate them without difficulty.
But if there were a cool story or mini-campaign that involved the political reunification of either the Uleks or Urnsts, I'd be very interested. In other words, don't reunite them to simplfy the map. But also don't avoid doing so if there's a cool adventure to be gotten out of it.
The County is east of the Duchy. Its rulers have been known for their political astuteness as they have the Duchy of Urnst, Nyrond, the Duchy of Tenh, the Theocracy of the Pale, and the Bandit Kingdoms as neighbors. While not neccesarrily being powerful, the County has maintained its autonomy over time through careful political maneuvering. If you can remember that it is the County of Urnst that has to deal with its neighbors in this way, you should remember that it must be the eastern most of the two nations.
There's also the Republic of Korea which is not to be confused with the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Or the Republic of the Congo as opposed to the Democratic Republic of the Congo. History is filled with examples like these.
Yeah! And why is Kansas City in Missouri? Shouldn't it be in Kansas? :D
--Ghul