I recall reading somewhere that Kharolis had a tradition of being rule by queens who enjoyed horseback riding. I’ve kept that tradition. My Kharolis resembles Spain at the peak of its power in medieval times, basically sweeping ballrooms, knights (with similar Spanish armor), privateers, and so on.
Most of Ansalon is lacking in description of the locals. How exactly do people from Estwilde differ from Ergothians? Creating unique cultures that have no bearing with anything on our world is great, but when that’s not available it doesn’t hurt to hint at what a culture might resemble in our world. As it stands Dragonlance is very richly detail but it needs to delve a little deeper into political structure and culture.
If any of you have detailed your world with more flavor please share. I’m curious as to how each of you view the cultures of Krynn.
The new Dragonlance seems to be heading in the right direction. Hopefully up coming products detailing regions will be made available. Who doesn’t want a sourcebook just on the Elven Kingdoms (when they were around) or Solamnia?
The Uigan of Taladas seemed most like the Mongols, right down to the epicanthic folds in their eyes and the drinking of fermented mare's milk, living in yurts, proverbial born on the horse warriors, etc.
As for the rest ...
The Ice Folk: Scandinavians
The people of Lemish: eastern European (think Transylvanian)
Ergothians: North African, particularly Moroccan
Nordmaarians: vaguely North African
Plainsfolk: American Indian
Istar: Roman/Byzantine
Ice People (of Taladas): Eskimo
Payan Mako: Micronesians (pacific islander)
Baltch: Dutch, hehe.
I never imagined the Nordmaarian as North African. How did you come up with that one? Interesting. Nordmaard I always thought of them as barbarians from the Hyborean Age (Conan The Barbarian type of style).
And since you brought it up, the boxset "Time of the Dragon" was an excellent supplement. The cultures where beautifully detail. I actually fell in love more with Taladas for a while over Ansalon. The continent was ripped with potential for storytelling.
Iltharanos you’ve pretty much nailed it though. The Ice Folk were easy to just sum them up to Eskimos but instead you went with the Scandinavian approach. I like that I think I’ll use it if you don’t’ mind.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I never imagined the Nordmaarian as North African. How did you come up with that one? Interesting. Nordmaard I always thought of them as barbarians from the Hyborean Age (Conan The Barbarian type of style).
Not really sure where I got that from, I guess it was more from the country's location, being semi-tropical, lots of savanna, semi-nomadic tribes ... it reminded me of medieval north Africa. The real question is what was Nordmaar like before the first Cataclysm? According to the maps it was a bunch of islands ...
And since you brought it up, the boxset "Time of the Dragon" was an excellent supplement. The cultures where beautifully detail. I actually fell in love more with Taladas for a while over Ansalon. The continent was ripped with potential for storytelling.
Yeah, I love that boxed set. I've still got it. :D
Iltharanos you’ve pretty much nailed it though. The Ice Folk were easy to just sum them up to Eskimos but instead you went with the Scandinavian approach. I like that I think I’ll use it if you don’t’ mind.
Feel free to do so. :D BTW, have you read the Icewall trilogy of novels? It has some really excellent background info. on the Ice Folk (pre-first Cataclysm).
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I’ve been reading the first four Dune books. They are very demanding works.
Stop there, or, if I've gotten to you in time, stop after the third book. The series does nothing up ramble downhill after about the middle of book two. Book three is still readable; book four is a serious fight, and after that....well, better left unmentioned.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
You got me all down now I was really looking forward to reading about Leto’s rule. Is it really that bad?
It's all subjective. God Emperor of Dune all takes place in a day or two, while thousands of years separate it from the previous book and the one after it. It's like a brief moment in the history of Arrakis, albeit an incredibly significant one.
Cheers,
Cam
It’s mention that in Southern Kharolis bronze dragons build Pyramids. I think I recall reading about Pyramids also in the wastelands of Solamnia by the Lost City. Do you think a semi-Egyptian culture could have rule there in pre-cataclysm days? I don’t mean a complete carbon copy but imagine a realm with the ruler is known as the Morning Star, a direct descendent of their aspect of Paladine and dark cults of Morgion and Chemosh lurking beneath the sands.
Rosisha
Rosisha
It is very common for fantasy settings these days to simply copy out of a history book. Forgotten Realms certainly does it, which is why that campaign setting looks like a mish-mash of popular earth cultures as they existed in their most interesting periods.
However, I dislike that approach, because why have a pale imitation when you can simply play in alternate earth? Why ride with Yamun Kahan when you can ride with Ghengis Khan? Why have a campaign reminiscent of Spain, when you can actually go to Spain and boot the Moors out of there?
What is more, why should I chose Dragonlance over the Forgotten Realms (or vice-versa) if they are both a mish-mash of earth cultures? Won't they look pretty much the same when you are finished?
My advice is to wean your self off your dependance on history books. Instead of using pyramids as the sites for tombs of absolute rulers (Egypt) or the sites of human sacrifice (Central American) why not instead use it for something that a casual student of history wouldn't expect. How about using a pyramid as the site of a Germanic kingsmoot?
Once you have trained yourself to think outside the box a little bit, move on to creating fantasy realms out of the fantastic. Wonder about how a people would gather food, raise their families, structure their communities and select their leaders. Then you can start doing stuff that is more original, like having a cult of preist design a pyramid not to bury their kings, but instead as a dungeon filled with hazardous traps and chained monsters, for claimants to the throne to prove their worthiness to rule. No cultures of earth have used pyramids for that reason!
Anyway, that's just my advice. If you feel that I'm full of dingo's kidneys, then feel free to ignore it.
Pyramid as Germanic kingsmoot, noted, stolen, and put into campaign...
Originally posted by Daedavias
Pyramid as Germanic kingsmoot, noted, stolen, and put into campaign...
Good idea. And remember, a Germanic kingsmoot isn't stealing from an Earth culture at all. Right?
Terry does have the right idea, in that you should always feel able to borrow elements from our own history and tweak and twist them a little to serve a new function in the campaign. But you should never feel as if you are lazy or uncreative for borrowing even on a large scale from historical cultures. Why would you want a nation that greatly resembles Earth's own Mongol Empire? Why, because you'd like Mongol Empire-style cultures to interact with your Dragonlance characters.
Don't feel guilty for historical and cultural plagiarism. It's often the quickest, most readily identifiable and easily inserted material you can make use of, and it's very important in a roleplaying game to grab that sense of recognition. Filing the serial numbers off may make for a lousy fantasy novel, but it's ideal for a fantasy game.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Thousands of years pasts? Is Gani even around anymore? And what about her poor displaced royal consort?
I think it takes place something like 4000 years after the third book. I was fairly unimpressed with it, especially with the dramatic changes that were made in the feel of the book.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Good idea. And remember, a Germanic kingsmoot isn't stealing from an Earth culture at all. Right?
Of course it is, that's why its step 1. See, borrowing from history is now such a cliche that many people often feel its a requirement. It's hard to jump right into building societies and cultures from scratch right from the get go, since the mentality is so ingrained in the sci-fi and fantasy community.
Thus, the first stage would be to take traditional historical structures and combine them with other historical structures in unexpected ways. You'll still end up with some german/egyptian hybrid, but it is a little different than the standard.
Then once you start doing that, you'll be able to start thinking about the elements of society independantly, and create societies based on the needs of the terrain, the monsters around, the natural resources available, and your own sociology and political science theories.
Here is a helpful exercise. Imagine that you are the leader of a group of tribesmen seeking to settle a particular area. Thus, before you even think about the culture, draw up some natural landmarks, places of resources large fish-filled lake, salt deposits, gold deposits, etc. These things will determine a lot. For example, if the land is not arable for farmland, the society will be forced to be nomadic. If there are no sources of iron, then you will have to gain it from trade, giving iron merchants a lot of power. This will determine where people settle, and what they do to survive.
Then think about how you will control your leadership. Are you most likely to use brute force? To control by having enough money to buy everyone off? Are you more likely to share power with others? This will determine whether or not you have a democracy, monarchy, merchant oligarchy, etc.
Then wonder about religion and myth. How do people explain the things in the world around them? What is their purpose? What is the story behind that peculiar rock formation? Is the diety you follow loving or vengeful? This will decide the role of clerics, and also give you some adventure sites.
Finally, figure out who is going to be disenfranchised in this society, or who does not have firm grip over power. These will give you the troublemakers and enemies of your new little kingdom.
From answering those questions, you'll have info to have a coherent place in which to start a campaign. There will be more questions of course, and more detail that needs to fleshed out, but these are the ones you should start with.
Don't feel guilty for historical and cultural plagiarism. It's often the quickest, most readily identifiable and easily inserted material you can make use of, and it's very important in a roleplaying game to grab that sense of recognition. Filing the serial numbers off may make for a lousy fantasy novel, but it's ideal for a fantasy game.
Yeah, it is quick and easy. I just figured I should offer my advice and let them know that there are other options available.
I may be just full of dingos kidney's though.
Originally posted by ferratus
However, I dislike that approach, because why have a pale imitation when you can simply play in alternate earth? Why ride with Yamun Kahan when you can ride with Ghengis Khan? Why have a campaign reminiscent of Spain, when you can actually go to Spain and boot the Moors out of there?
Ferratus, there is nothing wrong with borrowing from historical sources as Cam pointed out. Rosisha’s Bakali society is a creative, excellent take on the lizard folk. So what if it was base on the Mayans? Not even Krynn is 100% free of historical influence. The whole point of the thread was to give advice on what similarities might exist between Krynn’s cultures and our own.
I’m going to assume you really hate the Minotaur Empire of Taladas since it so obviously influenced by Rome and the Abanasinian plainsmen for ripping-off Native American wardrobe. These obvious influences shouldn’t be frowned upon because they have help evolved a fictional culture into something different and unique.
I don’t believe for one minute that anyone in this forum is shackled by historical dependency. I’ve read enough threads to honestly believe the majority here thinks “outside the box”. It’s pretty harsh and rude to accuse anyone of laziness and uncreative thinking because they reached the conclusion that the Khur resemble Arabians, based on the obvious hints and clues the authors provide us with. I’m not singling out Iltharanos I’m just using it as an example. And after rereading the Khur again I have to agree with him.
I have yet to come across a High Fantasy setting that’s free of historical influence. If you can think of one that’s great. But keep in mind that if that Setting has any knights or the cultures have ever war with one another over religious differences it’s probably influence by our Crusades or something similar.
And by the way using pyramids as a death trap is a great idea.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
The whole point of the thread was to give advice on what similarities might exist between Krynn’s cultures and our own.
Right, which is why I finally decided to speak up. See, I wanted to point out that you could also do societies and cultures that contrast with earth's own.
I’m going to assume you really hate the Minotaur Empire of Taladas since it so obviously influenced by Rome and the Abanasinian plainsmen for ripping-off Native American wardrobe.
I dislike how the minotaurs of the league dress yes, and I hate that they use Roman titles. I love however, how they have a completely different legal, cultural and economic reality than ancient Rome.
The ones I really dislike on Taladas are the Uigan, while I absolutely adore Thenol and the Armach-Nesti.
Likewise, I dislike Istar because it is based on a mixture of the Papal States and Ancient Rome. I love Paul B. Thompson's and Tonya Cook's ancient Ergoth though, since it could be either Persian, Chinese, Mayan, Mongolian...
These obvious influences shouldn’t be frowned upon because they have help evolved a fictional culture into something different and unique.
I disagree. How can it be unique if you are copying from something else? The more historical references you make, the less the information has come from your own head. If you incorporate the Knights Templar into your campaign for example, that's the brainchild of St. Bernard of Clairvaux, not you.
It’s pretty harsh and rude to accuse anyone of laziness and uncreative thinking because they reached the conclusion that the Khur resemble Arabians, based on the obvious hints and clues the authors provide us with. I’m not singling out Iltharanos I’m just using it as an example. And after rereading the Khur again I have to agree with him.
Certainly Khur does resemble Arabia. I'll probably never roleplay an adventure in Khur. ;) Like I said, if I want to go to Arabia...
As for the laziness or uncreative thinking, those are Cam's words. I think that D&D is a pretty lazy thing to do all round, no matter what you're doing with it. I mean, you sit on your butt the whole time whether designing or playing. It's not like football where you get some fresh air and exercise, or practical like learning how to take apart and fix a car or computer.
I have yet to come across a High Fantasy setting that’s free of historical influence. If you can think of one that’s great. But keep in mind that if that Setting has any knights or the cultures have ever war with one another over religious differences it’s probably influence by our Crusades or something similar.
Certainly you cannot stop subconcious influence. I mean, what human nature comes from the study of the humanities, and history is a fundamental part of knowing how we behave.
In regards to Dragonlance and other D&D worlds, yeah we are shackled with an earth-based medieval technology. We are also shackled by the fact that we roleplay humans, and races that act like humans (in stereotypical ways).
However, we are not shackled with the need to copy historical events, personalities, or societies. That's why I prefer to avoid it, but that is only my own personal taste.
[/b]
On the one hand, borrowing or directly importing elements from earth is certainly viable. We write from our own experiences and knowledge, do we not? Forgotten Realms is a great example of an alternate earth culture. If memory serves correctly, it was meant as an alternate earth to begin with.
On the other hand, I'm actually going to have to agree somewhat with Ferratus. One should realize that we're dealing with fantasy worlds, and that some things will be affected by the world. We also write from our imaginations.
Take the Darksword trilogy for example. In it, we see a world that is founded on the idea that magic is everything. The world takes on a neat (and spooky!) flavor due to that.
Many worlds meet in between this, borrowing from earth culture, yet fitting them together in unique ways, or presenting neat twists on it. Legend of the Five Rings takes feudal Japanese culture, yet adds twists in the form of magic and the clans. While familiar, this setting is also new and refreshing.
Dragonlance, IMO, is like this too, taking from earth culture somewhat (especially with timeless elements as knights, wizards, and dragons), yet adding in some neat twists (3 moons for example). It is very fairy-tale in nature.
Any of these approaches are valid. It isn't a matter of how close or how far away from earth you make a world, or whether you just go with an alternate earth (ala d20 Modern).
What matters is that you make it interesting and fun. Why is it that the Forgotten Realms, which is very much an earth clone, sells so well? Why do other settings that seem so alien sell well? Why do the ones that are in between sell well?
The answer is the same. The designers and writers made the setting interesting and fun.
Originally posted by ferratus
Right, which is why I finally decided to speak up. See, I wanted to point out that you could also do societies and cultures that contrast with earth's own.
I disagree. How can it be unique if you are copying from something else? The more historical references you make, the less the information has come from your own head. If you incorporate the Knights Templar into your campaign for example, that's the brainchild of St. Bernard of Clairvaux, not you.
Have you ever read David Cooks FR novel Horselords? I found the book fun to read but disappointing in the end. Here is the story in a nutshell. Mongol-like horsemen throw themselves against the Dragon Wall that protects a Chinese style dynasty. “Yawn” I wonder where they got that from? I understand your point and when is taken to that extreme I can completely sympathize with your point of view.
However, to answer your question I view the Que-Shu differently from Native American because culturally they are very different in many aspects. The use of Native American clothing pepper with some cultural similarities only help flesh out the plainsmen more.
I love the Thenol. I love the Glass Sailors! And while the Uigan Raiders where not original I was very happy with the Tiger Clan Elves. Taladas is unique in many aspects and I found it more appealing than Ansalon for a while, I hope it transfers to 3rd Edition one day.
Originally posted by ferratus
I debated on whether to offer my advice, since you guys seem to be having fun, but I figured I'd let you know my point of veiw.
It is very common for fantasy settings these days to simply copy out of a history book. Forgotten Realms certainly does it, which is why that campaign setting looks like a mish-mash of popular earth cultures as they existed in their most interesting periods.
However, I dislike that approach, because why have a pale imitation when you can simply play in alternate earth? Why ride with Yamun Kahan when you can ride with Ghengis Khan? Why have a campaign reminiscent of Spain, when you can actually go to Spain and boot the Moors out of there?
Probably because many people enjoy certain elements of earth history but not the whole of any one time. Others likely enjoy Yamun Khahan because in the Forgotten Realms he can have a magical flaming katana and it wouldn't appear at all incredulous, whereas Genghis Khan wielding magic in a historical earth would look odd.
What is more, why should I chose Dragonlance over the Forgotten Realms (or vice-versa) if they are both a mish-mash of earth cultures? Won't they look pretty much the same when you are finished?
Do you think that Dragonlance and the Forgotten Realms look pretty much the same? They seem rather different, despite the cultural mish-mash.
My advice is to wean your self off your dependance on history books. Instead of using pyramids as the sites for tombs of absolute rulers (Egypt) or the sites of human sacrifice (Central American) why not instead use it for something that a casual student of history wouldn't expect. How about using a pyramid as the site of a Germanic kingsmoot?
Once you have trained yourself to think outside the box a little bit, move on to creating fantasy realms out of the fantastic. Wonder about how a people would gather food, raise their families, structure their communities and select their leaders. Then you can start doing stuff that is more original, like having a cult of preist design a pyramid not to bury their kings, but instead as a dungeon filled with hazardous traps and chained monsters, for claimants to the throne to prove their worthiness to rule. No cultures of earth have used pyramids for that reason!
Anyway, that's just my advice. If you feel that I'm full of dingo's kidneys, then feel free to ignore it.
Some people enjoy history books. Some people enjoy Dragonlance. Some people that enjoy both like seeing historical events in Dragonlance. There's nothing unimaginative about that, or indicative of constrained thinking. If anyone here really wanted to play in a world that was truly fantasy and had no historical ties, then they likely wouldn't be playing in a world with:
Humans
Knights in Shining Armor
Dragons
Good
Evil
Religion
They'd play in the world of Ghartoosh, with:
Ghartochians (beings composed of animated protoplasm that reproduce when they reach an epiphany about the uselessness of life)
Harmonians (Ghartochians that exist only to consume Ghartochians that don't reach epiphanies)
Mork (the Ghartochian practice of nonbeing)
Shoorg (beings composed of Qorts [the building block of the reality in which Ghartoosh exists] that exist to consume Ghartochians and convert them into Soor-Qorts [the building block of the next higher state of unbeing])
Seriously though, did you think that up or can you somehow delve in time into the very sleeping mind of H.P. Lovecraft?
Either way I loved it. I also run a CORE Command game, do you mind if I use that as a “joke” society? Is to damn funny.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I foam in the mouth at the prospect of running a Ghartochian campaign.
Seriously though, did you think that up or can you somehow delve in time into the very sleeping mind of H.P. Lovecraft?
Either way I loved it. I also run a CORE Command game, do you mind if I use that as a “joke” society? Is to damn funny.
Yeah, I just cooked that up. But, I did play Cthulu way back in high school, once. No telling how influenced I was by that experience.
If you manage to get something useful from the Ghartochian Campaign, go right ahead. :D You'd better hurry though, no telling how long it'll be before I copyright the whole thing! ;)