Ogre Mage
-HD: 5
-Level Adjustment: +7
Ogre Titan template
-Level Adjustment: +6
The Ogre Mage Ogre Titan thus has an ECL of 18, but he's only got 5 HD! So following the rules for a balanced party, you could conceivably have the following:
Human Barbarian Level 18 with 18 HD
Human Wizard Level 18 with 18 HD
Dwarf Mystic level 18 with 18 HD
Ogre Mage Ogre Titan with no class levels with a total of 5 HD
That ogre mage titan may have lots of powers and great ability scores ... but if I were him I'd sure as hell stay away from any and all encounters this party ever runs into.
I also find it funny that this ogre mage titan that's equivalent to a regular 18th level character only has a challenge rating of 10. Yes, I know, CR and ECL have nothing to do with each other. Still, it's hilarious to think that this ogre mage titan is technically equal to his 18th level party members but alone is considered an appropriate encounter for 4 10th level shmucks, and not a particularly difficult encounter at that.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I want them ready to use, not "ah crap.. now I gotta spend an hour writting up stats for these things".
What about the sample monsters that come with every template?
Another reason why I strongly believe is that DragonSpawn have to templates because we've been told that the Spawn retain some of the memories and qualities of the original creature. Thus a Spawn created from a fighter is very different from a Spawn created from a farmer. Templates are in the game to handle things like this.
FR
But to address the problem at hand, I think the crux of the matter is the CR/LA system. There aren't specific rules for determining these two values because there are just too many variables to deal with. It all comes down to instinct and experience.
Having said that, I think that regardless of powers granted, such great discrepancy between HD and ECL should be avoided. Like you mention, the Ogre magi Titan may pack one heck of a punch but that doesn't help him at 18th level. And in 3.5 where the designers made a deliberate effort to move away from "do or die" effects and into "suffer or suffer more", hit points are now more valuable at higher levels than in 3.0. Perhaps you could rule something like this (btw, haven't playtested this, I'm just bouncing an idea):
HD 1-3 Can only have a max LA of HD+3.
HD 4-8 Can only have a max LA of HD +5.
HD 9-14 Can only have a max LA of HD +7.
HD 15-20 Can only have a max LA of HD +9.
So if you have a race/template that breaks this rule just don't allow PCs to take it or remove powers droping LA accordingly.
My opinion of Templates in general: I think they are a wonderful mechanic. I'm not bothered in the least by having to create the monsters/NPCs. A frojas mentioned, NPCs with classes take as much or more time and effort to build. And personally, I'd prefer if the MM was just a collection of racial traits like the PC races in the Player's Handbook than an encyclopedia of ready-made monsters (but that's just me); the 3.5 MM is better at this though.
There is also some redundancy that you just do away by using templates or simply increased functionality. For example, skeletons. In 3.0 you had to have a full page table for all sizes. Now you just have a template entry. And what's more, you can now have non-humanoid skeletons with properly implemented abilities and powers. Another example would be vampires. Virtually every single creature can be a vampire (barring unintelligent creatures and so forth); just imagine the redundancy it would be to list every single vampire that could exist in the MM: vampire human, vampire elf, vampire dwarf, vampire centaur, vampire ogre, ad nauseum...
So, IMO, it's not Templates that break the system, they do however, show the fragility of the CR/LA system.
I have to admit that there is a charm to adding a vampire Template to just about anything and it becomes a lot cooler with the lycanthrope Templates. I just wish there where more Template examples ready for use.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Iltharanos, I enjoy reading your posts because you obviously have knowledge of the setting and your posts boast sound reasoning but here... how can you say all templates suck while giving one example (and only 1 problem with that template)?
Yes, it is a somewhat inappropriately titled topic. My true beef with templates is with the mounting level adjustments. Perhaps a better subject heading would be:
"Why templates suck, when applied to creatures that already have a level adjustment, thus making any such creature virtually unplayable as a PC"
That's a rather unwieldy title, so I opted for sheer laziness in selecting my thread title.
But to address the problem at hand, I think the crux of the matter is the CR/LA system. There aren't specific rules for determining these two values because there are just too many variables to deal with. It all comes down to instinct and experience.
Having said that, I think that regardless of powers granted, such great discrepancy between HD and ECL should be avoided. Like you mention, the Ogre magi Titan may pack one heck of a punch but that doesn't help him at 18th level. And in 3.5 where the designers made a deliberate effort to move away from "do or die" effects and into "suffer or suffer more", hit points are now more valuable at higher levels than in 3.0. Perhaps you could rule something like this (btw, haven't playtested this, I'm just bouncing an idea):
HD 1-3 Can only have a max LA of HD+3.
HD 4-8 Can only have a max LA of HD +5.
HD 9-14 Can only have a max LA of HD +7.
HD 15-20 Can only have a max LA of HD +9.
So if you have a race/template that breaks this rule just don't allow PCs to take it or remove powers droping LA accordingly.
You nailed it right on the head. With the 3.5 changes to the instant-death spells like disintegrate, playable PCs are all about the HD. Going back to my original example with the Ogre Mage Titan that's ECL 18. As a titan one benefit is he's got a +4 to saves against Necromantic effects. You say to yourself, sure, that's handy. But let's look at this Ogre Mage Titan in the context of his 3 other 18th level standard race party members.
Picture this scene:
Ogre Mage Titan (OMT) and 3 party members stumble upon Big Bad Evil Guy (BBEG, a.k.a. NE human Wizard 18). Not a difficult encounter, right?
BBEG, being relatively bright, figures that the 15 foot tall blue behemoth is the biggest threat.
BBEG fires Energy Drain at OMT.
BBEG likely hits the Large-sized OMT and rolls average for the negative levels he now lays down on OMT. BBEG rolls the 2d4 and thus gets a 5.
OMT laughs, I have massive ability scores and SR 19 and a +4 to save against Necromantic effects.
BBEG laughs harder, pointing out his caster level of 18, the lack of a save allowed by Energy Drain, and the fact that Energy Drain applies only to the HD of the target creature. BBEG then laughs some more when OMT (with a total of 5 HD), keels over dead from the negative levels gained.
This example only emphasizes the unplayability of such a creature with a double digit level adjustment.
My opinion of Templates in general: I think they are a wonderful mechanic. I'm not bothered in the least by having to create the monsters/NPCs. A frojas mentioned, NPCs with classes take as much or more time and effort to build. And personally, I'd prefer if the MM was just a collection of racial traits like the PC races in the Player's Handbook than an encyclopedia of ready-made monsters (but that's just me); the 3.5 MM is better at this though.
There is also some redundancy that you just do away by using templates or simply increased functionality. For example, skeletons. In 3.0 you had to have a full page table for all sizes. Now you just have a template entry. And what's more, you can now have non-humanoid skeletons with properly implemented abilities and powers. Another example would be vampires. Virtually every single creature can be a vampire (barring unintelligent creatures and so forth); just imagine the redundancy it would be to list every single vampire that could exist in the MM: vampire human, vampire elf, vampire dwarf, vampire centaur, vampire ogre, ad nauseum...
So, IMO, it's not Templates that break the system, they do however, show the fragility of the CR/LA system.
I agree, templates are a wonderful tool for DMs. They bring added depth and variety to the roleplaying experience, since the mechanic provides numerous monster combos with which to challenge your players.
I don't have a problem creating NPCs with templates. The real problem is that applying even one template to a creature with a miniscule level adjustment results in an unplayable PC race.
e.g. A half-ogre Ftr 1 with the red dragonspawn template.
Half-ogre: Level Adjustment +1
Red Dragonspawn template: Level Adjustment +4
Thus, with 1 HD to his name, this half-ogre red dragonspawn is equivalent to a standard 6th level PC, according to the rules. But is he really? If you were this half-ogre red dragonspawn, would you rush to fight the enemy's 6th level human barbarian? What about a 5th level human barbarian? 4th? 3rd?
In the end it boils down to templates being great for NPCs, but a terrible idea for PCs. This is what I have a problem with. Templates truly allow one to make unique and interesting characters ... but these are characters that simply cannot get into any combat (and survive) that is technically appropriate for their ECL. This isn't so much a problem with campaigns that run multiple sessions with but one or two combat encounters. It is a serious problem, though, for any campaign where you have even one or two combats per session.
You know what the capabilities of your party are better than anyone else. Thats why I don't look at a monster's CR. I look at its HD/HP, attack bonuses, damage, SA's and saves, then compare them to the party. Thats the best way to do it.
And theres nothing stopping you from giving the Half-Ogre class levels.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
And theres nothing stopping you from giving the Half-Ogre class levels.
Sure there are, the rules. A half-ogre red dragonspawn fighter 1 (1 HD) is technically equivalent to the human fighter 6 (6 HD). Technically. Combat-wise, not really. Given how screwy level adjustments are, will I have any half-ogre red dragonspawn characters running around? Maybe, but then they'll likely die right away. Interestingly, despite the availability of such "unique" characters, every single player in every 3rd edition campaign I've run has played a character with no level adjustment (and most of those are human). Likely they realize the inherent imbalance characteristic of the "adjusted" races.
EDITED: I think you misunderstood my post. It's not that the half-ogre red dragonspawn isn't tough enough for my PCs. The issue is that the half-ogre red dragonspawn PC is too weak to survive combat against encounter levels that are technically appropriate for its ECL.
Originally posted by iltharanos
Sure there are, the rules.
EDITED: I think you misunderstood my post. It's not that the half-ogre red dragonspawn isn't tough enough for my PCs. The issue is that the half-ogre red dragonspawn PC is too weak to survive combat against encounter levels that are technically appropriate for its ECL.
The rules are not set in stone (Something I have to remind one of my players on an almost weekly basis
). There are quite a few creatures that only get HD advancement when giving them classes makes them more interesting, so why not do so. It works well.I agree with your inital assessment about the effectiveness of the race as a PC which was why I suggested giving/allowing class levels.