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dl war mage

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Sep 25, 2003 13:26:54 does anyone know wher ei can find the stas of the dl war mage.. it sounds awesome
#2
Dragonhelm
Sep 25, 2003 13:28:46 Age of Mortals.
#3
zombiegleemax
Sep 25, 2003 14:33:32 thanks
#4
zombiegleemax
Sep 25, 2003 20:11:05 I too, have a question about the war mage (I'm waiting for my AoM to arrive!) I'm interested in both becoming a Knight of the Thorn as well as a war mage. BUT, it seems that this would go above 20 levels and become epic. Does this look right?

Fighter 4/Wizard 3/Knight of the Thorn 10/War Mage 5

Those are for the maxed out PrC's of course. This would be a 22-level character. Is there any other way to play the pre-reqs? Thanks! (can't wait to play him!)
#5
Dragonhelm
Sep 25, 2003 20:48:31 Taking an all-too-brief look, I think you would only need 2 levels of fighter, not four. I think you can max out at 20th level.

Now mind you, nobody says that you have to max out. You could just go back and forth between Thorn Knight and War Mage.

Note that the armored spellcasting ability of both classes stack.
#6
zombiegleemax
Sep 25, 2003 20:53:02 I love the idea of the war/thorn knight mage.

It would be very scary seeing a fireball flying at you from a guantleted hand.
#7
josephkell
Sep 25, 2003 22:44:59 Best 20 level War Mage of Dragonlance:

Sorcerer 6/Fighter 1/Thorn 6/War Mage 5/Thorn 7th and 8th

If you are allowed to use Marshal (from the Wizard's site), you get one less BAB, but it lets you add your Charisma modifier to your level to overcome Spell Resistance!

War Mage 5 and Thorn 8 lets you ignore up to 30% arcane spell failure! That is 5% failure in NORMAL Full-Plate!

Sure you are Lawful Evil... but you also add your Charisma modifier to three allies' AC, and you get to add 3 to each DIE of damage from a direct damage spell (too bad it doesn't add on to Enervation or Energy Drain) but turning a 10d6 Fireball into 10d6+30 ROCKS! That is like Maximize right there. If your DM rules that it counts as the damage for Empower... then that is like (1.5 * 10d6) + 45 for a 5th level slot (which is the same as Cone of Cold with the same Battle Magic +3, which would be 15d6+45)

Or Chain Lightning: 20d6+60 to the primary target, and 10d6+30 to each secondary target!

Heck, Magic Missile is much better! 1d4+4 instead of 1d4+1 damage... Scortching Ray is 4d6+12 for each ray.

Basicly it is FREE Empower (except for dice less than d6)

Ray of Frost i s 1d3+3!
#8
iltharanos
Sep 26, 2003 1:46:57 If you throw in the Pyro feat from Song and Silence then the max damage for the unmodified fireball rises to 10d6 + 40.
#9
zombiegleemax
Sep 26, 2003 7:02:34 don't you think that the war mage is a bit overpowerd ?
#10
zombiegleemax
Sep 26, 2003 7:17:40 Nah, it just evens out a battle mage using range to a melee in melee. I always thought a mage should be comparible to a melee but at range compared to melee.
#11
zombiegleemax
Sep 26, 2003 7:30:14 yes, but a fireball or lightning bolt maximized to 90 points of damage is a little bit hard if you ask me. Don't get me wrong, I like the war mage too, but as a human wizard, you can get this prestige class at 6th level which means that you have 5 levels in warmage at 11th level. At this time (presumed that you have taken the maximize feat) you can do your 'infernal blast' fireball (as a 6th level spell) at 90 points of damage.. wow !
#12
zombiegleemax
Sep 26, 2003 8:28:24 Thats 90 if he doesn't save.

Think of a fighter now, in a land with Minotaurs, by 11th level you would have a 26 strength. Add a +3 great sword, weapon specialization and what not you are up to 2d6 +17 and an attack of 21.

Now tweak it with power attack and its 2d6 +31 (+12pa) with two attacks. Thats just with a sword. Not too bad either. Now after 8 levels of fighter we add a few barbarian levels to that Horned warrior,hmm getting the point?

I think this just made a battle mage what he was meant to be. A ranged damage dealer of the highest level!
#13
zombiegleemax
Sep 26, 2003 8:56:50 I'm not really satisfied with that...
45 garantueed points in a 40ft. diameter is still a mighty sum of damage for a 6th level spell.. but I'm not so closefisted as a DM that i won't allow a war mage. I would rather heigthen the requirements. Perhaps 9 or 10 ranks in Concentration and Spellcraft would be fitting or an additional feat which emphasizes the warrior part of the 'war mage' and which is not a standard feat. (leadership or toughness for example)
In addition to the damage the war mage has his other features which are pretty strong too, and the good saves. I doubt that a fighter of same level even a 'powergamed' minotaur would be a match.
#14
zombiegleemax
Sep 26, 2003 9:08:17 You also have to take into accountthat warmage is one of the few other PrCs taht A Wizard of High Sorcery can take.
#15
zombiegleemax
Sep 26, 2003 9:46:36
Originally posted by Hammerhand
Thats 90 if he doesn't save.

Think of a fighter now, in a land with Minotaurs, by 11th level you would have a 26 strength. Add a +3 great sword, weapon specialization and what not you are up to 2d6 +17 and an attack of 21.

Now tweak it with power attack and its 2d6 +31 (+12pa) with two attacks. Thats just with a sword. Not too bad either. Now after 8 levels of fighter we add a few barbarian levels to that Horned warrior,hmm getting the point?

I think this just made a battle mage what he was meant to be. A ranged damage dealer of the highest level!

I almost hate to point this out, but we are talking a +3 weapon at this point for the fighter. For the war mage, we're talking about a feat, that they get as a part of leveling. Not a magic item they have to hope they find.

Your average damage with the minotaur there is 76, assuming both attacks hit, and do average damage. If you're sacking that much to Power Attack, you have a pretty high chance of missing the second attack, dropping your average damage down to 28 points...to one target.

I'll take the 45 to multiple targets if they all make their saves.
#16
zombiegleemax
Sep 26, 2003 9:54:01 Well a mage has to get something. They have no hps and are dead if they get into melee range so why shouldn't they get soemthing.

I don't find War mages over powered at all. They are what they are. There are alot of ways that a melee fighter or cleric can get pretty nasty so why shouldn't a mage.

Also in my campaign the WoHS are in power again so after you go through the order I beleive you are about level 10 or 11 when you hit level 1 War mage.
#17
zombiegleemax
Sep 26, 2003 10:01:56
Originally posted by Hammerhand
Also in my campaign the WoHS are in power again so after you go through the order I beleive you are about level 10 or 11 when you hit level 1 War mage.

that sounds good...

A war mage is also more likely to threaten enemies with 'massive damage'. How do you handle that rule in your campaign ?
#18
zombiegleemax
Sep 26, 2003 10:12:22 I let him do it,hehe. With the fighters laying the smack down from level one we (my group) like to see the mage finally coming into his own and having some fun.

I'm lucky in my game as my group likes to see the other members doing what they do best. So the fighters will wait for the left over from the mages attacks and have a blast doing it,hehe.

Even my white furred, blue eyed Minotaur Knight of the Sword stays back and acts as the mages body guard (protecting the weak) with a shield other spell going.

It's all alot of fun with very little jealousy and a ton of role playing.
#19
zombiegleemax
Sep 26, 2003 17:24:39
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Taking an all-too-brief look, I think you would only need 2 levels of fighter, not four. I think you can max out at 20th level.

Now mind you, nobody says that you have to max out. You could just go back and forth between Thorn Knight and War Mage.

Note that the armored spellcasting ability of both classes stack.

Well after checking the books your right, the base save requirements for a Thorn Knight are met with a Fighter 2/Wizard 3. Thanks Dragonhelm! Don't know where I got those extra two fighter levels from :D

I love the feedback that I'm hearing from the war mage, and I love the fact that the Armor benefits stack
#20
baron_the_curse
Sep 26, 2003 18:02:45
Originally posted by iltharanos
If you throw in the Pyro feat from Song and Silence then the max damage for the unmodified fireball rises to 10d6 + 40.

Right, then you’ll have to at some point use the feats Empower Spell and Maximize Spell. Now your 10d6+40 would do a max of 150 points of damage! Of course you’ll have be a White Robe so half of that damage is Radiant damage in case of demons, and double in case of undead.

Woah, that is so nasty and wrong.
#21
shugi
Sep 26, 2003 18:16:35 A minor nitpick - Fireball doesn't actually set things on fire, so the Pyro feat wouldn't stack with it.

But yeah... sick & wrong. I wonder how nasty a Wiz5 / WoHS5 / WarMage5 / Archmage5 would be (if the requirements are even possible)...
#22
daedavias_dup
Sep 26, 2003 22:08:22
Originally posted by Shugi
A minor nitpick - Fireball doesn't actually set things on fire, so the Pyro feat wouldn't stack with it.

But yeah... sick & wrong. I wonder how nasty a Wiz5 / WoHS5 / WarMage5 / Archmage5 would be (if the requirements are even possible)...

Palin's Pyre does though...
#23
iltharanos
Sep 26, 2003 23:31:44
Originally posted by Daedavias
Palin's Pyre does though...

Yep, forgot that part about the Pyro feat and setting things on fire. Still, Palin's Pyre by a 5th level War Mage with the Pyro feat does 3d6 + 12 fire damage and you're on fire and must make a Reflex Save DC 20 or still be on fire the next round. Not too shabby.
#24
zombiegleemax
Sep 28, 2003 18:20:09 The 2 extra levels of fighter, to level 4, probably came from you wanted Specialization.

And, to whomever said that a Mino with a +3 greatsword can do whatever; +3 Greatswords aren't that common. I think of Dragonlance as a low-magic world, as seen by Wyrmslayer only being +2 or whateve it is. Simple as that. Magic, be it mages or rings or Brightblades, is hard to come by, or should.

You shouldn't see fighters bandying about with Full Plate +4, Shield +3 and Flaming Longswords +2. Period.
#25
zombiegleemax
Sep 28, 2003 18:35:22 Dude, check out all of the Dragonalnce NPS, hell even Blister is decked out:

Leather Armor of Cold Resistance +3
+2 Seeking Sling
net of snaring +3

Those are some powerful weapons. And she's onl lvl 12.

Hm, lemme check someone else, someone more powerful...

Rig Mer Krel, lvl 14:
Ring of Protection +3
+4 Glaive of Grimwulf(Artifact that shouldn't be taken into account)
Ring of Evasion
Amulet of Natural Armor +4

And WyrmSlayer is a +3 dragon bane longsword with other powers. You can't just say +3 and be done with it,
#26
zombiegleemax
Sep 28, 2003 19:02:36 yeah, but by comparison he's right, low magic, or at least unobtrusive. Blister is 12th level, but lets look at Alusair Obarskyr of Cormyr(FR): lvl 10, +3 vorpal longsword, mithral dwarven full plate (not really magicall, but significant), +2 large metal shield, Cormyrian signet ring, ring of proof vs detect/loc, ring of freedom of movement, ring of protection +3.

Okay, I went looking for other examples from the FRCS, deliberately avoiding magic weilding classes, as naturally they would have access to a large amount of extra magic items. Almost all of the other characters in the book either have levels in arcane or divine spellcasting classes or are leveled higher than would be appropriate for comparison. Magic is far more prevalent in other settings, so I would call DL low magic. Note, though, the legendary magic items of DL: Wyrmslayer, Wyrmsbane, Mantooth/Darkstar, Honor's Face, Sword of Tears, the Dragonlance, the Dragon Orbs, the Staff of Magius. They are significant because special magic items are so rare. In that list above, the Sword of Tears and the Greater Dragonlances are the only thing above a +3, and they are considered artifacts by most people within the game world. In Fr or Greyhawk, they would have been uncommon, but a footnote to the other magical Items running about the worlds.
#27
zombiegleemax
Sep 28, 2003 19:20:15 I'm aware of that but I'm also saying that magic is not as abnormal as everyone thinks. Despite misconceptions DL warriors do not walk around wearing mundane longswords and leather armor. There are magical items. +3 Greatswords are far more common than everyone thinks.
#28
zombiegleemax
Sep 28, 2003 19:47:52 That I'll agree to, simply because in weapon descriptions, it seems the preferred way of enhancing a weapon is to give it special abilities as oppossed to higher bonuses than a +3 maximum. A simple +3 enhancement is probably not going to draw attention to itself most times, and if you look at all those characters who weild magic items, most are probably not even aware their enhancement only items are magical, just thinking of them as well crafted weapons, often passed through family, or recovered from foes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 25, 2003 13:26:54	does anyone know wher ei can find the stas of the dl war mage.. it sounds awesome
#2 Dragonhelm Sep 25, 2003 13:28:46	Age of Mortals.
#3 zombiegleemax Sep 25, 2003 14:33:32	thanks
#4 zombiegleemax Sep 25, 2003 20:11:05	I too, have a question about the war mage (I'm waiting for my AoM to arrive!) I'm interested in both becoming a Knight of the Thorn as well as a war mage. BUT, it seems that this would go above 20 levels and become epic. Does this look right? Fighter 4/Wizard 3/Knight of the Thorn 10/War Mage 5 Those are for the maxed out PrC's of course. This would be a 22-level character. Is there any other way to play the pre-reqs? Thanks! (can't wait to play him!)
#5 Dragonhelm Sep 25, 2003 20:48:31	Taking an all-too-brief look, I think you would only need 2 levels of fighter, not four. I think you can max out at 20th level. Now mind you, nobody says that you have to max out. You could just go back and forth between Thorn Knight and War Mage. Note that the armored spellcasting ability of both classes stack.
#6 zombiegleemax Sep 25, 2003 20:53:02	I love the idea of the war/thorn knight mage. It would be very scary seeing a fireball flying at you from a guantleted hand.
#7 josephkell Sep 25, 2003 22:44:59	Best 20 level War Mage of Dragonlance: Sorcerer 6/Fighter 1/Thorn 6/War Mage 5/Thorn 7th and 8th If you are allowed to use Marshal (from the Wizard's site), you get one less BAB, but it lets you add your Charisma modifier to your level to overcome Spell Resistance! War Mage 5 and Thorn 8 lets you ignore up to 30% arcane spell failure! That is 5% failure in NORMAL Full-Plate! Sure you are Lawful Evil... but you also add your Charisma modifier to three allies' AC, and you get to add 3 to each DIE of damage from a direct damage spell (too bad it doesn't add on to Enervation or Energy Drain) but turning a 10d6 Fireball into 10d6+30 ROCKS! That is like Maximize right there. If your DM rules that it counts as the damage for Empower... then that is like (1.5 * 10d6) + 45 for a 5th level slot (which is the same as Cone of Cold with the same Battle Magic +3, which would be 15d6+45) Or Chain Lightning: 20d6+60 to the primary target, and 10d6+30 to each secondary target! Heck, Magic Missile is much better! 1d4+4 instead of 1d4+1 damage... Scortching Ray is 4d6+12 for each ray. Basicly it is FREE Empower (except for dice less than d6) Ray of Frost i s 1d3+3!
#8 iltharanos Sep 26, 2003 1:46:57	If you throw in the Pyro feat from Song and Silence then the max damage for the unmodified fireball rises to 10d6 + 40.
#9 zombiegleemax Sep 26, 2003 7:02:34	don't you think that the war mage is a bit overpowerd ?
#10 zombiegleemax Sep 26, 2003 7:17:40	Nah, it just evens out a battle mage using range to a melee in melee. I always thought a mage should be comparible to a melee but at range compared to melee.
#11 zombiegleemax Sep 26, 2003 7:30:14	yes, but a fireball or lightning bolt maximized to 90 points of damage is a little bit hard if you ask me. Don't get me wrong, I like the war mage too, but as a human wizard, you can get this prestige class at 6th level which means that you have 5 levels in warmage at 11th level. At this time (presumed that you have taken the maximize feat) you can do your 'infernal blast' fireball (as a 6th level spell) at 90 points of damage.. wow !
#12 zombiegleemax Sep 26, 2003 8:28:24	Thats 90 if he doesn't save. Think of a fighter now, in a land with Minotaurs, by 11th level you would have a 26 strength. Add a +3 great sword, weapon specialization and what not you are up to 2d6 +17 and an attack of 21. Now tweak it with power attack and its 2d6 +31 (+12pa) with two attacks. Thats just with a sword. Not too bad either. Now after 8 levels of fighter we add a few barbarian levels to that Horned warrior,hmm getting the point? I think this just made a battle mage what he was meant to be. A ranged damage dealer of the highest level!
#13 zombiegleemax Sep 26, 2003 8:56:50	I'm not really satisfied with that... 45 garantueed points in a 40ft. diameter is still a mighty sum of damage for a 6th level spell.. but I'm not so closefisted as a DM that i won't allow a war mage. I would rather heigthen the requirements. Perhaps 9 or 10 ranks in Concentration and Spellcraft would be fitting or an additional feat which emphasizes the warrior part of the 'war mage' and which is not a standard feat. (leadership or toughness for example) In addition to the damage the war mage has his other features which are pretty strong too, and the good saves. I doubt that a fighter of same level even a 'powergamed' minotaur would be a match.
#14 zombiegleemax Sep 26, 2003 9:08:17	You also have to take into accountthat warmage is one of the few other PrCs taht A Wizard of High Sorcery can take.
#15 zombiegleemax Sep 26, 2003 9:46:36	Originally posted by Hammerhand Thats 90 if he doesn't save. Think of a fighter now, in a land with Minotaurs, by 11th level you would have a 26 strength. Add a +3 great sword, weapon specialization and what not you are up to 2d6 +17 and an attack of 21. Now tweak it with power attack and its 2d6 +31 (+12pa) with two attacks. Thats just with a sword. Not too bad either. Now after 8 levels of fighter we add a few barbarian levels to that Horned warrior,hmm getting the point? I think this just made a battle mage what he was meant to be. A ranged damage dealer of the highest level! I almost hate to point this out, but we are talking a +3 weapon at this point for the fighter. For the war mage, we're talking about a feat, that they get as a part of leveling. Not a magic item they have to hope they find. Your average damage with the minotaur there is 76, assuming both attacks hit, and do average damage. If you're sacking that much to Power Attack, you have a pretty high chance of missing the second attack, dropping your average damage down to 28 points...to one target. I'll take the 45 to multiple targets if they all make their saves.
#16 zombiegleemax Sep 26, 2003 9:54:01	Well a mage has to get something. They have no hps and are dead if they get into melee range so why shouldn't they get soemthing. I don't find War mages over powered at all. They are what they are. There are alot of ways that a melee fighter or cleric can get pretty nasty so why shouldn't a mage. Also in my campaign the WoHS are in power again so after you go through the order I beleive you are about level 10 or 11 when you hit level 1 War mage.
#17 zombiegleemax Sep 26, 2003 10:01:56	Originally posted by Hammerhand Also in my campaign the WoHS are in power again so after you go through the order I beleive you are about level 10 or 11 when you hit level 1 War mage. that sounds good... A war mage is also more likely to threaten enemies with 'massive damage'. How do you handle that rule in your campaign ?
#18 zombiegleemax Sep 26, 2003 10:12:22	I let him do it,hehe. With the fighters laying the smack down from level one we (my group) like to see the mage finally coming into his own and having some fun. I'm lucky in my game as my group likes to see the other members doing what they do best. So the fighters will wait for the left over from the mages attacks and have a blast doing it,hehe. Even my white furred, blue eyed Minotaur Knight of the Sword stays back and acts as the mages body guard (protecting the weak) with a shield other spell going. It's all alot of fun with very little jealousy and a ton of role playing.
#19 zombiegleemax Sep 26, 2003 17:24:39	Originally posted by Dragonhelm Taking an all-too-brief look, I think you would only need 2 levels of fighter, not four. I think you can max out at 20th level. Now mind you, nobody says that you have to max out. You could just go back and forth between Thorn Knight and War Mage. Note that the armored spellcasting ability of both classes stack. Well after checking the books your right, the base save requirements for a Thorn Knight are met with a Fighter 2/Wizard 3. Thanks Dragonhelm! Don't know where I got those extra two fighter levels from :D I love the feedback that I'm hearing from the war mage, and I love the fact that the Armor benefits stack
#20 baron_the_curse Sep 26, 2003 18:02:45	Originally posted by iltharanos *If you throw in the Pyro feat from Song and Silence* then the max damage for the unmodified fireball rises to 10d6 + 40.** Right, then you’ll have to at some point use the feats Empower Spell and Maximize Spell. Now your 10d6+40 would do a max of 150 points of damage! Of course you’ll have be a White Robe so half of that damage is Radiant damage in case of demons, and double in case of undead. Woah, that is so nasty and wrong.
#21 shugi Sep 26, 2003 18:16:35	A minor nitpick - Fireball doesn't actually set things on fire, so the Pyro feat wouldn't stack with it. But yeah... sick & wrong. I wonder how nasty a Wiz5 / WoHS5 / WarMage5 / Archmage5 would be (if the requirements are even possible)...
#22 daedavias_dup Sep 26, 2003 22:08:22	Originally posted by Shugi A minor nitpick - Fireball doesn't actually set things on fire, so the Pyro feat wouldn't stack with it. But yeah... sick & wrong. I wonder how nasty a Wiz5 / WoHS5 / WarMage5 / Archmage5 would be (if the requirements are even possible)... Palin's Pyre does though...
#23 iltharanos Sep 26, 2003 23:31:44	Originally posted by Daedavias Palin's Pyre does though... Yep, forgot that part about the Pyro feat and setting things on fire. Still, Palin's Pyre by a 5th level War Mage with the Pyro feat does 3d6 + 12 fire damage and you're on fire and must make a Reflex Save DC 20 or still be on fire the next round. Not too shabby.
#24 zombiegleemax Sep 28, 2003 18:20:09	The 2 extra levels of fighter, to level 4, probably came from you wanted Specialization. And, to whomever said that a Mino with a +3 greatsword can do whatever; +3 Greatswords aren't that common. I think of Dragonlance as a low-magic world, as seen by Wyrmslayer only being +2 or whateve it is. Simple as that. Magic, be it mages or rings or Brightblades, is hard to come by, or should. You shouldn't see fighters bandying about with Full Plate +4, Shield +3 and Flaming Longswords +2. Period.
#25 zombiegleemax Sep 28, 2003 18:35:22	Dude, check out all of the Dragonalnce NPS, hell even Blister is decked out: Leather Armor of Cold Resistance +3 +2 Seeking Sling net of snaring +3 Those are some powerful weapons. And she's onl lvl 12. Hm, lemme check someone else, someone more powerful... Rig Mer Krel, lvl 14: Ring of Protection +3 +4 Glaive of Grimwulf(Artifact that shouldn't be taken into account) Ring of Evasion Amulet of Natural Armor +4 And WyrmSlayer is a +3 dragon bane longsword with other powers. You can't just say +3 and be done with it,
#26 zombiegleemax Sep 28, 2003 19:02:36	yeah, but by comparison he's right, low magic, or at least unobtrusive. Blister is 12th level, but lets look at Alusair Obarskyr of Cormyr(FR): lvl 10, +3 vorpal longsword, mithral dwarven full plate (not really magicall, but significant), +2 large metal shield, Cormyrian signet ring, ring of proof vs detect/loc, ring of freedom of movement, ring of protection +3. Okay, I went looking for other examples from the FRCS, deliberately avoiding magic weilding classes, as naturally they would have access to a large amount of extra magic items. Almost all of the other characters in the book either have levels in arcane or divine spellcasting classes or are leveled higher than would be appropriate for comparison. Magic is far more prevalent in other settings, so I would call DL low magic. Note, though, the legendary magic items of DL: Wyrmslayer, Wyrmsbane, Mantooth/Darkstar, Honor's Face, Sword of Tears, the Dragonlance, the Dragon Orbs, the Staff of Magius. They are significant because special magic items are so rare. In that list above, the Sword of Tears and the Greater Dragonlances are the only thing above a +3, and they are considered artifacts by most people within the game world. In Fr or Greyhawk, they would have been uncommon, but a footnote to the other magical Items running about the worlds.
#27 zombiegleemax Sep 28, 2003 19:20:15	I'm aware of that but I'm also saying that magic is not as abnormal as everyone thinks. Despite misconceptions DL warriors do not walk around wearing mundane longswords and leather armor. There are magical items. +3 Greatswords are far more common than everyone thinks.
#28 zombiegleemax Sep 28, 2003 19:47:52	That I'll agree to, simply because in weapon descriptions, it seems the preferred way of enhancing a weapon is to give it special abilities as oppossed to higher bonuses than a +3 maximum. A simple +3 enhancement is probably not going to draw attention to itself most times, and if you look at all those characters who weild magic items, most are probably not even aware their enhancement only items are magical, just thinking of them as well crafted weapons, often passed through family, or recovered from foes.