Just uploaded a preview version of the DS3.5 stuff.
It's a preview version: What does that mean? For one, there aren't any images in it. Among other things, this makes the doc a whole lot smaller. It also means that this isn't the final release, which means that things are subject to change.
So, what I'd like is for people to look over the document (avialable at http://athas.org/releases/ds3/) and check it for 3.5 sanity. We've been back and forth over the doc, but that doesn't mean that it's perfect yet. The release page will have a list of notes on issues that we're aware of. I 'spect this will grow as we get feedback.
I'd say more, but I'm tired, I've got a morning meeting at work, so I'm going to bed now....
Your venom glands are particularly active.
Regions: Thri-kreen
Benefit: You can use your poisonous bite three times per day.
Normal: You can use your poisonous bite once per day.
---------------------
Regions? Shoudnt it be something like "prerequisite or race" ?
Originally posted by Grummore
I am not at home right now and dont have my old pdf. But doesnt the H-G and TK have the same race abilities but are now ECL +1, which they werent in the first official core release?
They're Level Adjustment +1 ... They're still ECL +3. 3.5 has standardized on referring to Level Adjustments, not to ECLS. They both still start with 2 HD of their individual type.
ECL = HD + LA
where
ECL = Equivalent Character Level
HD = Hit Dice
LA = Level Adjustment
So, if we take the half-giant, he has 2HD, and a LA of +1, so ECL = 3.
Thri-keen description says: Dexterity +4, Wisdom +2, Charisma -4.
But table at page 3 says: +4 Dexterity , -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma
Also in same table for 1/2giant Intelligence there should be "small 1" instead of "*".
Charnel Stench: has (Air, Magma), which should be [Air, Magma] since this is a descriptor.
Heartseeker: Last sentence is a mess. Where is the verb?
Open the Gray Portal: Correct "instealf"
Poisoned Gale: Saving Throw is "See text", but it is never explained what is is. Target saves like against a normal poison? So what is the Save DC?
Protection from Time: Misspelled material component.
Shining Sands: Correct "dur the daytime"
Spamdrew
Originally posted by trotzflocke
Where do I post comments that have nothing to do with 3.5 sanity? Like Cerulean Hail only dealing 1d6 points of damage?
The instructions in this post (the one that's stickied above. You know, the one that says "How to provide feedback" .. that one) still apply.
you might have to roll back a few pages to find the last spells feedback thread, but that's still the plan.
Sometime when I'm offline, I'll have to find all the grammar and spelling errors I saw. (Acrobat Reader doesn't like other programs being open, at least on my computer...)
Originally posted by Heretic Apostate
What are the benefits of being a defiler? I see the "Dark Side Pseudo-Points" approach to going from Preserver to Tainted Preserver to Defiler. But nowhere did I find (in my brief perusal) the benefits...
Sometime when I'm offline, I'll have to find all the grammar and spelling errors I saw. (Acrobat Reader doesn't like other programs being open, at least on my computer...)
Access, mostly. There are a couple of small benefits that you get (outlined in the magic chapter) that you get by default for defiling. If you make the full fall to Defiler, than you get access to a few Defiler specific feats. And, when we publish them, a few Prestige Classes which will require you to be a "comitted" Defiler...
Also spotted some typos and similar but will compile into a single post later...
(Overall looks great, though. Nice work! Especially like the new gladiator - players are hopping up and down to play one...)
Check again. There's a difference between "one full round" and "one full round action". ;)
"Master Kamelion, you disappoint me. Nels holds you in such high esteem."
Check again. There's a difference between "one full round" and "one full round action".
>Hangs head in shame and tries to think of clever Star Wars comeback<
Why yes, so there is. Ooops.
>slinks back off to the monster cages<
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
"Master Kamelion, you disappoint me. Nels holds you in such high esteem."
Check again. There's a difference between "one full round" and "one full round action". ;)
Namely? Both takes a round, so I don't see much difference from playingwise...
Originally posted by Nagypapi
Namely? Both takes a round, so I don't see much difference from playingwise...
"One full round action" takes you your full complement of actions in a round: You need to use your Move Action and your Standard action to perform this. A full attack is an example of a full-round action.
"One Full Round" however, means exactly that: A full round. It takes you from your action this round until your action the next round to complete. Which means that you're spending an entire round doing whatever it is that you're doing. Which means that a lot of people get a chance to try and interrupt you, and that any effects don't take effect until the action is completed, one round after you started them.
Originally posted by guysery2000
Why Static Discharge now belongs to Metacreativity? There is enough powers in 3e Psionics that do not belong to the most logical Discipline (e.g. Levitate is psychoportive, not psychokinetic power), why at least not using a "double discipline power" approach?
Min-maxing. If things are available under different attributes, it kind of throws a new wrench into the monkey-works that is psionics.
... really hoping the 3.5 PsiHB does this mess some justice.
Regions? Shoudnt it be something like "prerequisite or race" ?
Forgotten Realms operates with Region: Elf for example.
Originally posted by flip
"One full round action" takes you your full complement of actions in a round: You need to use your Move Action and your Standard action to perform this. A full attack is an example of a full-round action.
"One Full Round" however, means exactly that: A full round. It takes you from your action this round until your action the next round to complete. Which means that you're spending an entire round doing whatever it is that you're doing. Which means that a lot of people get a chance to try and interrupt you, and that any effects don't take effect until the action is completed, one round after you started them.
Thanks for the clarification!
Originally posted by flip
Min-maxing. If things are available under different attributes, it kind of throws a new wrench into the monkey-works that is psionics.
... really hoping the 3.5 PsiHB does this mess some justice.
When is 3.5 PsiHB due? I'm afraid my hungry den of tembos can't wait so long for the dinner... err... players.
Min-maxing. If things are available under different attributes, it kind of throws a new wrench into the monkey-works that is psionics.
Tnx for the clarification, Flip
P.S. From a quick glance, I like very much the new Gladiator layout :D
Considering Elemental Strike a 5th level spell for Clerics and 4th for Druids, I'd suggest placing it as a 4th level spell for Wrath of the Fire Lords...
Originally posted by Kamelion
Under the Bard class description for "Characteristics" there is reference to the Alchemy skill. Should be changed to read Craft (Alchemy), right?
Yeah. Crap, I thought I'd gotten that one.
I don't have any corrections to send (everyone else posted them before me) but I would like to say great job to Chris, Jon, Peter, Nels, Gabrial, Paul, Nathan, Robert, Neeva, Roger, and Andrej! This is looking awesome and can only get better from here!
I would like to make a request that when the final version is released you couple it with a text only download for ease of printing, or, if there is a way to print without the cool backgrounds, please share that knowledge.
Once again top notch job...
Thysl
Originally posted by Kamelion
Also spotted some typos and similar but will compile into a single post later...
So, where is it? :D
(A mis-spelling of aarakocra near the start of their race write-up is the only one I can recall off the top of my head unfortunately. And I'm really hoping I spelled it right myself just now, too...)
Thanks for using some of mine and Otak-kun's ideas.
Also, what do you plan to do about the PsiHB 3.5?
Originally posted by The One and Only...
Poison Simulation should be clarified so that it can only be cast once per round and that it takes the place of a Quickened power.
Huh? Poison Simulation takes a standard action to cast ...
You might have meant Psionic Draw, which is right after poison simulation, which I've updated with the PsiHB boilerplate on free action powers.
[qb]
Also, what do you plan to do about the PsiHB 3.5? [/b]
Deal with it when it comes out. :shrug: That's not for six months, so there's nothing to do about it at the moment. We'll synch up with it when it's published.
And more, this note is under #1, wich is beside thri-kreen's, while beside half-giant's lies a '*'.
BTW.. since I'm not an natural english speaker...
1) what on earth "min-maxing" means?
2) I took this phrase from the dwarf's description, what "take to psionics with a vengeance" means?
"Like almost everything that they do, dwarves take to psionics with a vengeance. They make formidable egoists and nomads."
Thanks for the attention!
Originally posted by Fabrício Madruga Lopes
On the 3rd page of the DS 3.5 pre-release, in the Table 2-1: Races, about the inteligence, the note below says that the half-giant can't have intelligence below 3, but it did not mention about thri-kreens... can they have intelligence score below 3?
The error there is actually that the table still lists TK as having a negative Int modifer. They don't anymore.
And more, this note is under #1, wich is beside thri-kreen's, while beside half-giant's lies a '*'.
Fixed.
BTW.. since I'm not an natural english speaker...
1) what on earth "min-maxing" means?
2) I took this phrase from the dwarf's description, what "take to psionics with a vengeance" means?
Min-maxing: The practice of tweaking up a character in a roleplaying game so as to minimize the penalties while maxmizing the benefits.
"With a vengance" ... umm ... roughly, with great passion and entusiasm.
p3. Aarakocra Physical description states: "...and on a distance they "resemble... Should be "from/at a distance..."
Aarakocra Alignment has"aarakoran tribes" - should be "aarakocran tribes"
p4. Aarakocra natural weapons. Is the bite a secondary attack? Should be noted if it is or not.
p12. Thri Kreen relations has "kreen that joins a group of humanoid will..." - should read "group of humanoids..."
p23. Ranger religion mentions "jugada" but I am fairly sure it's "judaga"...
p27 at the top has "the method used label the wizard..."- should read "the method used labels the wizard..."
p34. Crossbow, fixed has "Reloading a fixed cross"bow is full-round action". Should read "Reloading a fixed crossbow is a full-round action".
p35. Lasso has "If you succeed the grapple check..." - should read "If you succeed at the grapple check..."
p37. Under chariot reads "A war chariot build for two riders..." Should read "...built for two riders..."
p39. Under Athasian Resistance to temperatures has "...from Chapter 3, The Environment, in the Dungeon Master Guide." Should read "...from Chapter 8, Glossary (under The Environment), in the Dungeon Master's Guide."
Flavour text for "Shade" has a wayward apostrophe before the word "shelter" in the last sentence.
p42. States "power scaling does not count against the manifester -1 PP limit for metapsionically-altered powers". Should read "...the manifester level -1 PP limit..."
p43. Heat Lash summary replace "it" with "is".
p44. Desert Mirage, Horrid Wilting summary has 1d8 damage/level. Should be 1d6 (1d8 reserved for water elementals and plants).
p45. Earthen Embrace lists Endurance. Should be Bear's Endurance.
p46. Rolling Thunder lists Greater Command. Should be Command, Greater.
p48. 1st level templar spells has incorrect summary for Endure Elements. It now only negates Fort saves for temperature between -50 and 140 degrees.
2nd level templar spells has Lesser Restoration. Should be Restoration, Lesser.
2nd level templar spells has Resist Elements. Should be Resist Energy. Summary reads "ignores 12 damage/round". Should read "ignores 10 damage".
3rd level templar spells lists Protection from Elements. Should be Protection from Energy.
4th level templar spells lists Lesser Geas. Shoud read Geas, Lesser.
5th level templar spells lists Circle of Doom. Should read Inflict Light Wounds, Mass.
6th level templar spells has Greater Glyph of Warding. Should read Glyph of Warding, Greater.
p49. 7th level templar spells lists Greater Scrying. Should read Scrying, Greater.
7th level templar spells lists Lesser Elemental Chariot. Should read Elemental Chariot, Lesser.
9th level templar spells lists Greater Elemental Chariot. Should read Elemental Chariot, Greater.
p51. Blazing Wreath lists damage resistance 25/+3. 3.5 DR should be more like 15/magic and silver or something (not sure myself, really...heh)
p65 (no page number). Sandstone has "...you can turn a 5-footblock..." Should read "...5-foot block..."
And I'm sure that there was another one of those wayward apostrophes somewhere, too, but I can't spot it just now. Ho hum. Enjoy!
Good job on the gladiator guys! Thanks for using some of mine and Otak-kun's ideas.
Yeah, I adopted your Feint idea and your Uncanny Dodge suggestion. Very fitting.
Originally posted by Kamelion
OK, this is after a swift read-through. Apologies for oversights...
Danke. I've applied the updates to the working copy of the doc.
We have a couple of bards being played but they seem be underpowered vs the rest of the party. The main problem seems to be a lack of skill points. We have tried running them at 6 per level and that seems to allow enough breadth without overpowering them. When we tried 8/level they had far to much and had difficulty spending them all without buying large numbers of Knowledge and Craft skills.
I know the standard D&D bard has only 4/level but the loss of spells hasn't really been compensated for in the special abilities.
Anybody else experience similar issues or have your bards been fine?
Originally posted by felixmeister
I know the standard D&D bard has only 4/level but the loss of spells hasn't really been compensated for in the special abilities.
Anybody else experience similar issues or have your bards been fine?
Actually standard 3.5 Bard has 6 skill points per level.
Actually standard 3.5 Bard has 6 skill points per level.
Crap, that'll teach me to post without books to ref.Well I supose it makes the point a little more relevent though, if the standard bard has 6 points/level and spells then the DS3.5 bard is looking even more under-powered.
Maybe giving something to the fighter, like the armor adaption would restore the balance....
Again only IMHO the fighter was a bit weak in 3e, and 3.5e doesn't balanced it, especially compared to the boosted-up ranger...
Why is the description of some of the Gladiator's feats different from the description in the PHP? Would make sense to have them match. Improved Feint is an example. It should have a description like:
"The Gladiator is treated as if having the Improved Feint feat (page 95), even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat."
Feats like Improved Feint are another reason, why the Gladiator seems better than the Fighter. To gain this feat, a Fighter would have to take two feats and meet an attribute prerequisite.
Something more that bothers me: Why is the DS Bard called Bard? This profession has about nothing to do with the standard D&D Bard. And then there is the Brute. This is a Barbarian. Why call it Brute? Why not give something that is (technically) the same as something else the same name. Simplifies things.
Still, the Gladiator is quite powerful. Perhaps too much so. The Fighter can choose his feats, but the Gladiator gets more of them. This is in addition to the fact that he a better hit die.
Gladiator gets 8 *feats*. Fighter gets more. Four of the gladiator's feats are Exotic Weapon Proficiencies. You can't wield four exotic weapons at a time. You'd be lucky if your GM allowed you to carry that around with you.
Why is the description of some of the Gladiator's feats different from the description in the PHP? Would make sense to have them match. Improved Feint is an example. It should have a description like:
Hangover from pre 3.5 when the Improved Feint feat was not in the PHB.
Something more that bothers me: Why is the DS Bard called Bard? This profession has about nothing to do with the standard D&D Bard.
The original DS bard was different from the core D&D bard. So is this one. Athasian bards play a different role in society than generic D&D bards. Athasian bards are mariachi-killer poisonbranding smugglers. ;)
And then there is the Brute.This is a Barbarian. Why call it Brute? Why not give something that is (technically) the same as something else the same name. Simplifies things.
Hmm. Will have to add the answer to this one in the FAQ. This is an old topic. Do a search and see what you can come up with. Essentially it boils down to associations with the name barbarian. Some of those associations were not very athasian in nature. Thus the change. You could argue that we should alter the bard's name as well because of its name associations, but seeing the bard was part of the original DS setting, we saw no reason to change that.
Unarmed Strike, 1st Exotic Weapon, Mercy, Arena Guile, Improved Feint, Uncanny Dodge, 1st Armor optimization, 2nd Exotic Weapon, No Mercy, Insightful Feint, Improved uncanny dodge, 3rd Exotic Weapon, 2nd Armor optimization, Parry, 3rd Armor optimization, Superior feint, 4th Exotic Weapon, Improved Parry and 4th Armor optimization.
That's 19 combat specials. The Fighter gets 11 feats. The point about being unable to use more than one or two exotic weapons at once, and more than one armor is valid. Still, the same applies to the Fighter. He will almost never use all of his combat feats in one combat. Especially if he specializes in more than one weapon, and takes improved crit for more than one weapon. And even if I count the 4 exotic weapons and the 4 armor optimizations only once, it is still 13 combat specials to 11 feats.
The Gladiator cannot choose his specials, the fighter can. But in addition to the combat specials, the Gladiator has more skill points and a better hit die. Oh, and the Gladiator has better class skills. Fighters could be much better if they also had bluff as class skill.
That's 19 combat specials. The Fighter gets 11 feats {snip}
Good point. I still haven't converted the party gladiator yet so I haven't playtested it with the recent updates. Its much better than the first draft. I wouldn't try and raise the fighter up to the power level of the gladiator since then you start overtweaking that whole sacred cow called balance, rather, dropping some of the gladiator's benefits (perhaps nixing one of the armor ops, parry, and uncanny dodge, but those are just my picks off the cuff). Playtesting will show things a little better though; I hate giving comments without first testing things out.
Will there be athasian PrCs? I am not knowledgeable enough about the setting to develop my own. A list of appropriate ones from the different splat books might be nice, too.
I shudder when I think about large creatures with spiked chains doing nasty reach stuff with bluff and sneak attack.
Feint only removes the opponent's dex modifier for *one* attack. And if you're going to get Superior Feint, you won't get many rogue levels with sneak attack.
There is a Gladiator PrC in S&F. And while a lot of the material in that book was quite crappy, a look at this PrC does not hurt. The Gladiator PrC is less powerful than the Gladiator class in DS3.5. And you need to meet requirements and cannot take it from the beginning. Does not sound right to me.
On the other hand, many of the high level DS3.5 spells are simply useless, and no spellcaster will probably bother to waste precious slots on them. But that is not the right thread for this, and trotzflocke did extensive and great work on this already (although I do not see the impact of this work in DS3.5).
Unarmed Strike, 1st Exotic Weapon, Mercy, Arena Guile, Improved Feint, Uncanny Dodge, 1st Armor optimization, 2nd Exotic Weapon, No Mercy, Insightful Feint, Improved uncanny dodge, 3rd Exotic Weapon, 2nd Armor optimization, Parry, 3rd Armor optimization, Superior feint, 4th Exotic Weapon, Improved Parry and 4th Armor optimization.
That's 19 combat specials. The Fighter gets 11 feats. The point about being unable to use more than one or two exotic weapons at once, and more than one armor is valid. [...] And even if I count the 4 exotic weapons and the 4 armor optimizations only once, it is still 13 combat specials to 11 feats.
Remember that several of these combat specials as you would call them are situational in nature. F.ex. Parry and Improved Parry only grant benefits against opponents that attempt trip and disarm attacks. They're not as worthwhile as their offensive counterpart feats (Improved Disarm, Improved Trip) that grant a +4 bonus to one type of attack plus additional benefits - a feat you normally don't select unless you intend to use disarm or trip extensively. Mercy is only applicable if you want your opponent alive - and it is useless against opponents immune to subdual damage. Likewise, No Mercy is rarely applicable during combat - it is applicable after an opponent has between -1 and -9 hit points, or against a helpless opponent when you would probably have time to execute a full-round action anyway.
Still, the same applies to the Fighter. He will almost never use all of his combat feats in one combat. Especially if he specializes in more than one weapon, and takes improved crit for more than one weapon.
A fighter still has more versatility which allows for better tactics against specific foes, depending somewhat on his choice of feats of course. If he spends 6 feats to gain more benefits with two different weapons, that's his choice. He could take more useful feats.
One attack per round is all that is needed with some nice sneak attack damage.
Tell it to the half-giant brute/cleric.
There is a Gladiator PrC in S&F. And while a lot of the material in that book was quite crappy, a look at this PrC does not hurt. The Gladiator PrC is less powerful than the Gladiator class in DS3.5. And you need to meet requirements and cannot take it from the beginning. Does not sound right to me.
Make Them Bleed and The Crowd Goes Wild are way overpowered. 20 levels of abilities vs 10 are hardly comparable either. You have to compare those 10 levels with 10 levels of additional classes you can take against the 20 gladiator core class levels.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Tell it to the half-giant brute/cleric.
? Dunno what that is supposed to mean. Half-giants make terrible clerics, of course, unless you roll godly abilities.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Make Them Bleed and The Crowd Goes Wild are way overpowered. 20 levels of abilities vs 10 are hardly comparable either. You have to compare those 10 levels with 10 levels of additional classes you can take against the 20 gladiator core class levels.
The Crowd Goes Wild only applies if there a half-dozen non-combatant spectators. Talk about specific. Make Them Bleed might be too good, but against other fighters-types at this level it will only deal a few points of extra damage which each blow. Still, might be too good, but can be toned down easily: simply remove multiple wounds are cumulative.
Of course one cannot adapt a PrC as a base class. That is not what I said. But one can look for inspiration. The Gladiator PrC is much more of a gladiator, because some of its bonuses apply to arena combat (or something quite similar) only.
Of course one cannot adapt a PrC as a base class. That is not what I said. But one can look for inspiration. The Gladiator PrC is much more of a gladiator, because some of its bonuses apply to arena combat (or something quite similar) only.
And that is why it is a prestige class. Arena-specific features should be the territory of prestige classes. A core class should be more generic.
? Dunno what that is supposed to mean. Half-giants make terrible clerics, of course, unless you roll godly abilities.
A single sneak attack per round would not be sufficient to take down a half-giant with a strength score of 34 and a constitution score of 30. Just cast Bear's Endurance and Bull's Strength, enter rage and hit the little multi-classed rogue as hard as you can as many times as you can per round. That's my point. :D
the group "Improved Feint+Insightful Feint+2/+4+Superior Feint" is worth less than 4 feats (maybe 2);
Mercy/No Mercy thogeter 1 bonus Feat (maybe less:1 Bonus Feat is a more versatile option);
Unarmed Strike+5 Exotic Weapon Proficiencies are worth less than 6 Bonus Feats (again, versatility);
Armor Optimization X4 replaces Heavy Armor Proficiency;
Arena Guile maybe is worth a pair of feats;
Parry/Superior Parry, like Jon said, are worth not too much, maybe the equivalent of 1 Bonus Feat (i think less).
Maybe removing Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge and taking down to 2 skill points/level may balances things out, on a quick glance.
). The gladiator is, somehow, a performer, an arena performer yes, but a performer. He is like a bard and he does rely on some skills. A fighter is the ultimage fighting class, based solely on the tactical or brutal martial knowledge, while the gladiator will try to influence the moral of is ennemy.I know I am not very good at explaining in english, but :
Fighter = Physical and tactical
Gladiator = Physical and emotional
So, as a gladiator, I would put some of my skill points in a "form" of perform, intimidate, bluff and such. And how can you put skills points in such *important* things for a gladiator if you only recieve 2 + int skill points...
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
A single sneak attack per round would not be sufficient to take down a half-giant with a strength score of 34 and a constitution score of 30. Just cast Bear's Endurance and Bull's Strength, enter rage and hit the little multi-classed rogue as hard as you can as many times as you can per round. That's my point. :D
What are we doing? Making up numbers for characters? Well, my half-giant has a strength of 50 and constitution of 40. And what is that going to prove? Especially, what does it have to do with the Gladiator being powerful? Nothing. Of course, you can make up all sorts of situations where other classes are more powerful than the Gladiator, and I can make up all sorts of situations where that is not the case. Unfortunately, such a discussion cannot be about specific situations, but it has to be very generic.
Half-giants get -4 to WIS, if I am not mistaken. And -4 to CHA. They get less BAB, because of their starting HD and ECL. They make terrible clerics, but excellent fighter-types. You spend the first two rounds casting (if you can cast 2nd level spells at all). Does not sound too great, really. Just take a single classed Half-giant Brute, this will probably be more effective.
As for your comment about base classes having to be more generic: why make a Gladiator in that case? One could easily build a Fighter around the gladiator concept. Multiclass with Rogue if you need this dirty fighting style of fighting. There is a Gladiator because it should be noticably different from a fighter. The Barbarian/Brute goes for raw strength, the Fighter goes for Expertise. Give the Gladiator some bonuses when fighting one-on-one, this would make him unique.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Make Them Bleed and The Crowd Goes Wild are way overpowered. 20 levels of abilities vs 10 are hardly comparable either. You have to compare those 10 levels with 10 levels of additional classes you can take against the 20 gladiator core class levels.
But they are quite fitting for a prestige class. This core DS gladiator would be 100% as well, if it would be prestige class. it is too powerful for a core class.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
And that is why it is a prestige class. Arena-specific features should be the territory of prestige classes. A core class should be more generic.
Then why make gladiator a core class? Just because 2e had it? Or you have the feeling you need one more core class? I assure you, you don't. The current selection is quite okay even without a core gladiator class.
Gladiator by definition is a warrior with arena specific features, as you wrote. And -as you wrote rightly- it is screaming to be PrC.
Go with a PrC with easy requirements, like the gladiator PrC from Sword & Fist. Two fighter feats, +5 BAB, 4 ranks on intimidate or perform. ANY class can do it, if it goes to the fighting direction a bit, even wizards and psions. For a fighter or psychic warrior these are almost sure things to have without any effort. So the PrC can be widely available, yet situational specific as it should be.
The current core gladiator should be named more appropriate as "melee master", as its abilities fitting that role rightly. It has connections to arena fight, right, but still not a "real" gladiator.
What are we doing? Making up numbers for characters? Well, my half-giant has a strength of 50 and constitution of 40.
Unlike your example, mine was viable at 7th level. But irrelevant now. :p
You spend the first two rounds casting (if you can cast 2nd level spells at all).
Whether this is accomplishable depends on starting range, neh? But again, irrelevant now.
Unfortunately, such a discussion cannot be about specific situations, but it has to be very generic.
Then I suggest running some tests. Let us know the results. That is relevant now.
Then why make gladiator a core class?
Not going down that road again. Do a search.
Congratulations for your work Athas.org's Staff!!
I also thank Kamelion for the thousands notes you presented...
What "IMHO" means?? (sorry I'm not an natural english speaker...)
What "Datto" means???
"Humans are fools, and hopelessly naive as well. They outnumber us; they are everywhere, and yet they have no more sense of their strength than a rat. Let us hope that the Datto remain that way." Page 9
Other thing, what is an "Injury Poison"?? (within Bard's Friend description on page 34). Does it means that you must have an open wound (bleeding one) for it to be effective??
That's all, for now. (hoping not to atract Jon's lightning bolts...)
Thanks for your attention...
Datto = Elven for "human"
Injury poison = a poison that only takes effect if you inflict damage on the target, i.e. coating a dagger, needle etc. It does not require a bleeding wound to take effect.
IMHO = Abbreviation for "in my honest opinion".
I remember it was "in my humble opinion"
Just for info, there's a gladiator core class in Kingdoms of Kalamar. Might be worth a look.
Just for info, there's a gladiator core class in Kingdoms of Kalamar
Waiting till next month, but I was planning on ordering the book for just that reason
. If anyone else has it, how does the gladiator in there stack up?"in my humble opinion"
Some of us are honest, while some are humble.
Yeah, Jon's not good with his english. IMHO.
Which part of lightning bolt was it you two didn't get?
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Waiting till next month, but I was planning on ordering the book for just that reason
I have that book, the class looks pretty sweet. I'll do a quick rundown here, hopefully not stepping on any copyright infringements.
They get a d10 hit die, can be of any alignment, get Balance, Bluff, Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (fighting styles), Pantomime (both Kalamar skills), Sense Motive, Spot, and Tumble as class skills, they get 2 skill points per level, proficient in all simple and martial melee weapons, light and medium armor, and shields. They get the fighter base attack bonus, good Fort and Reflex saves and the following abilities (not necessarily in this order).
1 bonus exotic wpn prof.
Center of Attention (bonuses to attack rolls when being watched by spectators)
Arena Veteran +# (gets listed bonus to attack rolls during AOO, and gains this bonus to number of AOO per round)
Feint (add class level to bluff checks to feint in combat, gets same bonus to sense motive when being feinted)
Weapon Diversificaiton (-2 for using non-proficient weapons)
Improved Feint (feint is ME action instead of standard action)
Improved Wpn Diversification (suffer no penalty for non-proficient weapon)
Critical Focus (when fighting single opponent, weapon threat range is doubled and multiplier increases by 1)
Notorious Style (shows off with weapon causing opponents to save or be shaken)
Expert Feint (may use bluff to feint as free action 1/attack)
Legendary Style (gains bonus to damage equal to half class level when fighting single opponent)
Originally posted by Tembo-Pie
I have that book, the class looks pretty sweet. I'll do a quick rundown here, hopefully not stepping on any copyright infringements.
Also nice. Completely different, but nice. A bit more like the Gladiator prestige class from SaF with that spectator thing. Expert Feint sounds completely overpowered to me, but the rest is cool.
Originally posted by Tembo-Pie
Just a quick oversight to point out. It appears the Gladiator is missing his weapon and armor proficiencies that should be listed under "Class Features"
Ah. So he is. Have to go fix that.
For reference: All simple and martial. Light and Medium armor, and all shields but tower shields.
Hrm. Taking away the Shield prof might be an interesting option...
Originally posted by flip
Ah. So he is. Have to go fix that.
For reference: All simple and martial. Light and Medium armor, and all shields but tower shields.
Hrm. Taking away the Shield prof might be an interesting option...
But it is not in line with arena combat. Shields are used often in the arena.
The idea of reducing and later eliminating penalties for non-proficiency is a good one. Not powering up the gladiator, but reduce a hindrace... Flaovurwise fitting, and good for balance.
Originally posted by trotzflocke
The DS Gladiator does not "feel" like a Gladiator. The SaF Gladiator, and the one from Kalamar are better in this regard. With this spectator thing and such. But this might really be too big a restriction for a base class. Perhaps some restriction like that of the ranger (many class feats only usable in light armor) would be in order. Let's say, something like some of the class feats of the Gladiator can only be used if his square is not threatened by more than one person (or one enemy?). Would put the focus on the Gladiator as being an individualist and specialized in 1 on 1 combat. This would not mean taking something from him, there would just be some situations where he can not shine as much as the generalist (fighter). Wading through hordes of monsters in narrow dunegon corridors would not be his speciality. Neither the battlefield or file-and-rank fighting. But arena combat, small skirmishes and duels would be. Just as it should be.
The idea is good, but to handle it would be too difficult IMHO. And anyway fighting pairs are also not an uncommon thing in an arena, and this would negate the bonuses in the case above.
But I agree, that the current DS gladiator is not a 'real' gladiator. The abilities are more fit for a "melee master" character.
The idea of reducing and later eliminating penalties for non-proficiency is a good one. Not powering up the gladiator, but reduce a hindrace... Flaovurwise fitting, and good for balance.
Actually, eliminating the penalty for exotic weapons and improvised weapons means handing out an unlimited amount of exotic weapon proficiencies. Even if the amount you can use are limited at a time, that's pretty powerful. Regular shields should stay, but tower shields can be excluded.
Originally posted by Gab
On hold until Terrors of Athas comes out. Which is not for another month, at least.
Will the two be integrated then?
Originally posted by Nagypapi
The idea is good, but to handle it would be too difficult IMHO. And anyway fighting pairs are also not an uncommon thing in an arena, and this would negate the bonuses in the case above.
I'd like to object. It would make a paired combat even more interesting, since maneuvering and using terrain and obstacles would be much more important. I don't think that my proposal is perfect. It would just be one way (there might be many more) that would give the current Gladiator a little bit more flavor and a slight restriction. Other possibilities could be spectators needed (too harsh), restricting him to light armor (nonsense) or inability to user certain class feats when being flanked. Don't know. Anything that makes him feel more like a Gladiator and less like a different brand of fighter.
Grammer
Pg. 44, Clarity of Light granted power description:
There should be a period after the word 'sun'.
3.5 compatibility
Pg. 44, Dispair of the Drowned granted weapons:
longspear is now a simple weapon.
All for now
;)
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Actually, eliminating the penalty for exotic weapons and improvised weapons means handing out an unlimited amount of exotic weapon proficiencies. Even if the amount you can use are limited at a time, that's pretty powerful. Regular shields should stay, but tower shields can be excluded.
Actually, the ability form the Kalamar Gladiator only reduces the attack roll penalty for any non-proficient weapon. It doesn't actually give you the proficiency in the weapon. That means that a lot of the exotic weapons can still be used as weapons, but anything that requires you to be proficient with the weapon will NOT work. So you can't specialize or take weapon focus in any of them, and most exotic weapons require you to be proficient with them to make them useful. I should have mentioned that in my original post, sorry!
Originally posted by trotzflocke
I'd like to object. It would make a paired combat even more interesting, since maneuvering and using terrain and obstacles would be much more important. I don't think that my proposal is perfect. It would just be one way (there might be many more) that would give the current Gladiator a little bit more flavor and a slight restriction.
The problem is what you are proposing is more of a PrC thing. Since I seriously doubt the gladiator is going that route it might be better to save that for a city-specfic gladiator PrC.
Other possibilities could be spectators needed (too harsh),
Been there, done that, it was too harsh and it didn't work smoothly.
Btw, when someone asks for playtesting info to show if something is too overpowered, it's usually a good idea to provide said info instead of just coming up with ideas to solve the problem that is only being seen by a few.
Just my 2 CPs.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Btw, when someone asks for playtesting info to show if something is too overpowered, it's usually a good idea to provide said info instead of just coming up with ideas to solve the problem that is only being seen by a few.
Just my 2 CPs.
So what if someone does not have the time/inclination to playtest it, but still feels it is not very good? Does Trotzflocke has to cast every last spell he commented in a gaming session before his comments are valuable?
People, including me, have pointed out what they think is wrong with the Gladiator, and they even thought about alternatives and suggested these. I fail to see how that is worth less than 'playtesting'. Especially since every gaming group plays the game a little differently.
People, including me, have pointed out what they think is wrong with the Gladiator, and they even thought about alternatives and suggested these. I fail to see how that is worth less than 'playtesting'. Especially since every gaming group plays the game a little differently
Both innitial interpretation as well as actual playtest data are of equal importance. Sometimes mistakes or oversights are apparent upon innitial inspection in which case, yes, such opinions are valid. Othertimes, its only by sitting down and doing a little number crunching or field testing something in an actual adventure that other more subtle flaws in something come to light. Both kinds of feedback are neccessary since oftentimes, innitial impressions of something are not accurate. As far as the gladiator stands, I think it has vast potential for being a versatile non specialized fighter, perhaps at select times outshining the core fighter (but not likely very often), but overall, I think it may be balanced out. I've only done one playtest with the new version (mock battle scenarios) and it seems to work at low and mid levels (have yet to run it under the stress test of the tembo den though, if it can walk out alive its overpowered).
Originally posted by Black Sheep
So what if someone does not have the time/inclination to playtest it, but still feels it is not very good? Does Trotzflocke has to cast every last spell he commented in a gaming session before his comments are valuable?
People, including me, have pointed out what they think is wrong with the Gladiator, and they even thought about alternatives and suggested these. I fail to see how that is worth less than 'playtesting'. Especially since every gaming group plays the game a little differently.
Both are valuable like Mach said.
But, evidently what you are pointing out is not being seen by the people in charge, hence why they asked for playtesting feedback after a certain point of "this is wrong because and that is wrong because". Give them hardcore playtesting data that shows something is actually wrong with the gladiator and I guarantee you that it will be taken a little bit more seriously and maybe give the gladiator another run through.
I happen to like it, the second version I and Otakkun did was way too powerful and Jon and company smoothed it over nicely while still keeping some of what I did in the first version. I don't happen to think it's overpowered, of course I haven't ran it through anything and I probably won't, being I am not running a DS campaign right now and if I were to run one in my Epic campaign it would probably result in bad data just because of what I allow and such.
Hence why playtesting feedback is now needed at this point.
The current gladiator is more like a Jaz't and I will probably incorporate the dropped or delayed abilities into the jazt PrC.
Edo.
The thing is that you *cannot* remove these 4 skills per rank (which I suggested btw ). The gladiator is, somehow, a performer, an arena performer yes, but a performer. He is like a bard and he does rely on some skills. A fighter is the ultimage fighting class, based solely on the tactical or brutal martial knowledge, while the gladiator will try to influence the moral of is ennemy.
I know I am not very good at explaining in english, but :
Fighter = Physical and tactical
Gladiator = Physical and emotional
So, as a gladiator, I would put some of my skill points in a "form" of perform, intimidate, bluff and such. And how can you put skills points in such *important* things for a gladiator if you only recieve 2 + int skill points...
Originally posted by Grummore
The thing is that you *cannot* remove these 4 skills per rank (which I suggested btw ).
Of course you can. The Gladiator will either be not as efficient (which is somewhat the point of reducing his skill points), or will have to have a higher Intelligence score. This would lead to have other scores low, which would also serve to tone the Gladiator down. And a Gladiator can function very well without e.g. Intimidate. He should have some points in Bluff, but the rest is optional. If every Gladiator absolutely has to have the same set of skills, there would not be much diversity, anyway.
Originally posted by Grummore
Sorry for reposting this, but since nobody replyed it, here is your answer for the 2skills/lvl
The thing is that you *cannot* remove these 4 skills per rank (which I suggested btw ). The gladiator is, somehow, a performer, an arena performer yes, but a performer. He is like a bard and he does rely on some skills. A fighter is the ultimage fighting class, based solely on the tactical or brutal martial knowledge, while the gladiator will try to influence the moral of is ennemy.
I know I am not very good at explaining in english, but :
Fighter = Physical and tactical
Gladiator = Physical and emotional
So, as a gladiator, I would put some of my skill points in a "form" of perform, intimidate, bluff and such. And how can you put skills points in such *important* things for a gladiator if you only recieve 2 + int skill points...
But just for "good to having it" it is not a must to have there. Or else PHB sorcerer could have all CHA based skills as class skills just because they have a good CHA.
For a fighter bluff and sense motive would be also a nice skill to have to execute/avoid the combat tricks. Not to mention the alternative usage in Sword & Fist to detect enemy tactics. But just for this fighter doesn't receive 4 skill points/level. Why should the gladiator then?
An other problem is that some special abilites can't be replicated by feats, e.g. uncanny dodge. So you can't make direct comparison between fighter's feat progression vs. gladiator special abilities.
I agree with felixmesiters' suggestions to re-scale the gladiator.
1) Is the 3.5 DS setting using the "Psionics are different" version of psionic as written in the PsiHB?
2) If yes, shouldn't it be stated explicitly somewhere in the document?
3) If yes, shouldn't be the "crossing" spells and powers (like a 'detect psionics' spell, or a 'negate magic' psionic power) written in the spell section?
The wealth system: Are characters considered to have as much wealth as presented in the DMG, converted to ceramic pieces? And is it only metal that is reckoned in gold pieces, or also enchantments (for example: is a non-magical metal weapon more expensive than a magical non-metal weapon?).
[ah, the article on athas.org about item creation clears up a lot]
In theory characters are assumed to start with the listed DMG starting equipment value entries in cp - not in gp (1:1 conversion ratio). However, many GMs don't in practice - and start them off with less. This practical use skews the CR system proportionally with level increase, but it is a GM's choice. Personally, I let PCs start with a non-metal weapon, backpack, blanket and 1d4 cp at 3rd level. If I'm in a good mood, I'll let them roll 1d4 to determine what kind of light armor they start off with - but only if they plan on wearing it.
Metal is calculated in gold pieces.
Enchantments are calculated in ceramic pieces.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Nagypapi, currently the Psionics are Different rule is the individual GM's decision.
And there is one intersting variant at athas.org site ("Psionics and Magic are related" article).
In case afirmative, shouldn't that be stated at the weapon's description? We thought about it and, if you allow us, here is our suggestion:
1) if the attacker misses the target for him to keep the weapon without losing his balance (see Table 8-8 in PHb, pg. 132) he must succeed on a Dexterity check (1d20 + Dex modifier) against a DC modified by the raw* damage he would have caused if the attack were succesful. (DC = 10 + damage rolled on dice).
2) the attacker could always release the rope and drop the weapon to avoid the test above.
*Raw damage means (only the dice result, without Str ou Dex modifier. Damage resistance, and similars from the missed target don't count either.)
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
One word summary: Ugh.
Let me see... you didn't like it.... Ok... it's natural in life...
But didn't have to be so cruel on your comment...
snif...
It just becomes too complex a mechanic to apply everytime you miss.
If it will make you feel better, perhaps I was imitating an indian? "ugh" ;)
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Don't take it personally.
It just becomes too complex a mechanic to apply everytime you miss.
If it will make you feel better, perhaps I was imitating an indian? "ugh" ;)
Just thought that adding a little danger to use the weapon would spice it up...
Mach - don't even think about it...
What!?? I wasn't going to say anything *snicker*. Nothing at all refering to Jon dressed up as Poccohantas or anything *snicker*
(man, am I heading for the biggest lightning bolt up my arse)
Lightning bolts aren't cruel enough for the likes of you two. This time you've earned yourselves a far worse punishment.
In the next official adventure from athas.org, there will be a pair of dumb fat kanks by the names of Mach and Nyte that will constantly annoy the PCs until they off the kanks in frustration.
(Just ask Gab about the kank Gabroach).
:D
Edo.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Not to speak for the team, but I'm glad they don't. Its very out of character for someone who spends so much time away from people to have a better chance of interacting effectively with them. I found it strange that druids in the core even have this in the first place.
That's pretty much the idea.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Nagypapi, currently the Psionics are Different rule is the individual GM's decision.
Thanks for the clarification!
And one for the clerics: in 3.5 PHB Clerics gain 'knowledge (the planes)' skill. It is not neccessary to repeat it in the DSHB.
These are mainly stylistic things, but nice to have.
Also: we just generated a druid character on Sunday, and the player comes with the idea to have a spider as animal companion. I think it's quite acceptable on Athas, as all animals the PHB mentions for this (wolf, badger, etc.) are not existent. So maybe it would be good to have an Athasian animal companion list at the druid section.
Connecting to this comes the problem of Athasian versions of creature list for 'summon monster' and 'summon nature's ally' spells. If I remember correctly we touched this already here in the board, but it would be a great help to the players to include the modified creature list in the DSHB, as the normal list is in the PHB. Especially that druids in 3.5 converts their spells to summon nature's ally spell, this will be much in use.
Another idea from an other player of mine who will play an air cleric: I mentioned the idea for converting memorized spells into domain spells instead of cure/inflict spells. I understand that it couldn't be used, but with coming out with a feat which makes it possible... The requirements can be heavy, as it is a powerful thing, but I think it can be possible. Or put in a restriction that the cleric can't convert spells higher than 3rd level or something. Or the cleric can convert spells into domain spells one level lower (for example for removing a 3rd level memorized spell to cast a 2nd level domain spell). Or with a PrC, the Athasian version of the Elemental Savant from Tome & Blood could have it as class ability.
And back to druid (sorry for my flying here and there style): did you consider, that druids will be more powerful on Athas, as they have light and medium armor proficiency (by PHB), and they can use it to full extent as there is almost no metal armor on Athas which would be forbidden to them? So they can go up on AC quite well. Maybe it would be good to reduce them to light armors only, with the still-appling restriction to not wear any metal armor. (Rare occurence, but keep it in...)
what stat method is used for making charatcers. the old 5d4 method or 3d6 one?
do chartacters start @ 3rd level as in the last edition?
I currently have players use 5d4 and start any new charaters @ 3rd level.
do you plan on bringing the character tree back in? this was a nice option to have in the 3 camps I played in and ran. It was nice to be able to switch out for another character when you lost one or were in need of extra muscle/magic/mind/mischief.....
also after using the 3.0 version now for a while I have found the athasian giants need a STR buff. go compare them the regular giants and the titan and their sizes and see.
also a 1/2 giant should either be stronger. an orge gets +10 str and he out weighs them! and he is in-between a hill and stone giant in height. he is already being unwis(DOM)ely punished. I don't think he should be that clumsy as well. only a -2 to dex.
grym
what stat method is used for making charatcers. the old 5d4 method or 3d6 one?
DS3FAQ: http://www.sederqvist.com/ao/3e.htm
Another problem in DS is with e.g the spear: according to the rules as it has only minuscule amounts of metal (the tip only) so even a metal spear can be purchased on the reduced costs. However it is a metal wepons, so it can overcome dmg resistance! I think this is a major balance break. I always considered spear to be affected by inferior material rule. "It's just the tip what are metal" -yeah, but the tip is the most important part of the spear! If it is not metal, but wood it is not a spear, but a stake. (Good against vampires, but useless any other way.) The same applies to arrows.
So the list of the weapons from PHB not under the effect of inferior material rule should be revised carefully.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
[b]Just to repeat it from the other thread:
Another problem in DS is with e.g the spear: according to the rules as it has only minuscule amounts of metal (the tip only) so even a metal spear can be purchased on the reduced costs.
[b]
Misinterpretation, because of a poorly written section. The spear mentioned is not using any metal components ... the point was more that the metal components of the spear could be easily replaced.
0-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS (ORISONS)
Create Element: [DS] Create a small amount of patron element.
Cure Minor Wounds: Cures 1 point of damage.
Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or object.
Guidance: +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Inflict Minor Wounds: Touch attack, 1 point of damage.
Light: Object shines like a torch.
Mending: Makes minor repairs on an object.
Purify Food and Drink: Purifies 1 cu. ft./level of food or water.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
Virtue: Subject gains 1 temporary hp.
As I know Athas uses the compatible psionic-magic system. So a 'detect psionic' spell is missing here, or either the detect magic spell should be enhanced with that ability (as Brax wrote it on athas.org), and written down here.
Bane: Enemies take –1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
Bless: Allies gain +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
Bless Element: [DS] Makes holy element.
Cause Fear: One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds.
Command: One subject obeys selected command for 1 round.
Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages.
Cooling Canopy: [DS] Summons a cloud to provide shade and prevent dehydration.
Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Curse Element: [DS] Makes unholy element.
Deathwatch: Reveals how near death subjects within 30 ft. are.
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: Reveals creatures, spells, or objects of selected alignment.
Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Divine Favor: You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
Doom: One subject takes –2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, and checks.
Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Entropic Shield: Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance.
Heat Lash: [DS] Creature suffers 1d4+1 damage and it is knocked back 5’.
Hide from Undead: Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Inflict Light Wounds: Touch deals 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Magic Stone: Three stones gain +1 on attack, deal 1d6 +1 damage.
Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you.
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
Remove Fear: Suppresses fear or gives +4 on saves against fear for one subject + one per four levels.
Sanctuary: Opponents can’t attack you, and you can’t attack.
Shield of Faith: Aura grants +2 or higher deflection bonus.
Summon Monster I: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Cooling Canopy is ok with a water or air priest, but for fire, magma, silt and earth clerics it is a bit strange. Not to mention that a sun cleric considers it a blasphemy. I think it should be modified as usable for air, rain and water priests only.
Heath Lash is also a bit out of flavour for the non-fire and non-magma clerics.
Magic Stone: this could be modifed to the name 'Elemental Bolt' or something, it causes energy dmg according to the patron element, and don't need material component. Than it fits for every cleric. The unmodifed PHb version is good for earth clerics only.
Obscuring Mist: see Cooling Canopy above.
Aid: +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).
Align Weapon: Weapon becomes good, evil, lawful, or chaotic.
Altruism: [DS] Transfer HP to another.
Augury M F: Learns whether an action will be good or bad.
Bear’s Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Bull’s Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Calm Emotions: Calms creatures, negating emotion effects.
Consecrate M: Fills area with positive energy, making undead weaker.
Cure Moderate Wounds: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Darkness: 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
Death Knell: Kills dying creature; you gain 1d8 temporary hp, +2 to Str, and +1 level.
Delay Poison: Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
Desecrate M: Fills area with negative energy, making undead stronger.
Eagle’s Splendor: Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.
Enthrall: Captivates all within 100 ft. + 10 ft./level.
Find Traps: Notice traps as a rogue does.
Gentle Repose: Preserves one corpse.
Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
Inflict Moderate Wounds: Touch attack, 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Make Whole: Repairs an object.
Owl’s Wisdom: Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.
Remove Paralysis: Frees one or more creatures from paralysis or slow effect.
Resist Energy: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
Restoration, Lesser: Dispels magical ability penalty or repairs 1d4 ability damage.
Return to Earth: [DS] Turns dead and undead bodies into dust.
Shatter: Sonic vibration damages objects or crystalline creatures.
Shield Other F: You take half of subject’s damage.
Silence: Negates sound in 15-ft. radius.
Sound Burst: Deals 1d8 sonic damage to subjects; may stun them.
Spiritual Weapon: Magic weapon attacks on its own.
Status: Monitors condition, position of allies.
Summon Monster II: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Undetectable Alignment: Conceals alignment for 24 hours.
Zone of Truth: Subjects within range cannot lie.
Hold Person: is this working on kreens? They are humanoid type now....
Spiritual weapon: should be good to have patron element dependent effect, something like at 'elemental weapon' (not so strong tough)
Animate Dead M: Creates undead skeletons and zombies.
Bestow Curse: –6 to an ability score; –4 on attack rolls, saves, and checks; or 50% chance of losing each action.
Blindness/Deafness: Makes subject blinded or deafened.
Breathing: [DS] Subjects can breathe underwater, in silt or earth.
Contagion: Infects subject with chosen disease.
Continual Flame M: Makes a permanent, heatless torch.
Create Food and Water: Feeds three humans (or one horse)/level.
Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
Daylight: 60-ft. radius of bright light.
Deeper Darkness: Object sheds supernatural shadow in 60-ft. radius.
Dispel Magic: Cancels spells and magical effects.
Glyph of Warding M: Inscription harms those who pass it.
Helping Hand: Ghostly hand leads subject to you.
Inflict Serious Wounds: Touch attack, 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
Invisibility Purge: Dispels invisibility within 5 ft./level.
Lighten Load: [DS] Increases Strenght for carrying capacity only.
Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
Magic Vestment: Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels.
Meld into Stone: You and your gear merge with stone.
Obscure Object: Masks object against scrying.
Prayer: Allies +1 bonus on most rolls, enemies –1 penalty.
Protection from Energy: Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.
Remove Blindness/Deafness: Cures normal or magical conditions.
Remove Curse: Frees object or person from curse.
Remove Disease: Cures all diseases affecting subject.
Sand Pit: [DS] Excavates an area from the sand.
Searing Light: Ray deals 1d8/two levels damage, more against undead.
Speak with Dead: Corpse answers one question/two levels.
Stone Shape: Sculpts stone into any shape.
Summon Monster III: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Surface Walk: [DS] Subject treads on unstable surfaces as if solid.
Wind Wall: Deflects arrows, smaller creatures, and gases.
Breathing: it's ok that the air cleric can breath anywhere. But for the rest it would be nice to restrict it to patron element only (in the case of fire clerics it means smoky areas)
Meld into stone: for non-earth clerics it's a hardly rightful spell. For air clerics this spell is an open blasphemy...
Sand Pit: for earth it's ok, but why should e.g. a fire cleric able to do that?
Stone Shape: should be available for earth clerics only
Surface Walk: also should be connected to patron element only, but I admit I have no idea how...
Wind Wall: interesting is the earth cleric who could do such thing... Should be air cleric only.
The rest coming tomorrow, I gotta go now.
4TH-LEVEL CLERIC SPELLS
Air Walk: Subject treads on air as if solid (climb at 45-degree angle).
Blindscorch: [DS] Your fire burns the faces of one opponent.
Control Tides: [DS] Raises, lowers or parts bodies of water or silt.
Cure Critical Wounds: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
Curse of the Black Sands: [DS] Target leaves black oily footprints.
Death Ward: Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
Dimensional Anchor: Bars extradimensional movement.
Discern Lies: Reveals deliberate falsehoods.
Dismissal: Forces a creature to return to native plane.
Divination M: Provides useful advice for specific proposed actions.
Divine Power: You gain attack bonus, +6 to Str, and 1 hp/level.
Elemental Armor: [DS] Armor or shield gains enchantment bonus and special quality.
Elemental Weapon: [DS] Weapon gains enchantment bonus and special quality.
Freedom of Movement: Subject moves normally despite impediments.
Giant Vermin: Turns centipedes, scorpions, or spiders into giant vermin.
Imbue with Spell Ability: Transfer spells to subject.
Inflict Critical Wounds: Touch attack, 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
Magic Weapon, Greater: +1 bonus/four levels (max +5).
Neutralize Poison: Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
Planar Ally, Lesser X: Exchange services with a 6 HD extraplanar creature.
Poison: Touch deals 1d10 Con damage, repeats in 1 min.
Repel Vermin: Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Restoration M: Restores level and ability score drains.
Sand Spray: [DS] Sprays sand or silt as an area attack.
Sending: Delivers short message anywhere, instantly.
Spell Immunity: Subject is immune to one spell per four levels.
Summon Monster IV: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Tongues: Speak any language.
Air Walk: again interesting e.g. for an earth cleric... Air only should it be.
Blindscorch: I would say Fire and Sun only.
Control Tides: should be tied for patron element only. (Silt: silt, water: water, earth: sand)
Curse of the Black Sands: I wouldn't grant this to air clerics. Fire (burning footprints), water (oily footprints) and earth (simply colored footprints) can be OK.
Sand Spray: I would grant it only to earth and air clerics, and maybe silt.
Atonement F X: Removes burden of misdeeds from subject.
Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification.
Command, Greater: As command, but affects one subject/level.
Commune X: Deity answers one yes-or-no question/level.
Cure Light Wounds, Mass: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: +4 bonus against attacks.
Disrupting Weapon: Melee weapon destroys undead.
Elemental Strike: [DS] Smite foes with divine energy (1d6/level damage).
Hallow M: Designates location as holy.
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass: Deals 1d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Insect Plague: Locust swarms attack creatures.
Mark of Justice: Designates action that will trigger curse on subject.
Plane Shift F: As many as eight subjects travel to another plane.
Raise Dead M: Restores life to subject who died as long as one day/level ago.
Rangeblade: [DS] Can strike with melee weapon at a distance.
Righteous Might: Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.
Scrying F: Spies on subject from a distance.
Slay Living: Touch attack kills subject.
Spell Resistance: Subject gains SR 12 + level.
Summon Monster V: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Symbol of Pain M: Triggered rune wracks nearby creatures with pain.
Symbol of Sleep M: Triggered rune puts nearby creatures into catatonic slumber.
True Seeing M: Lets you see all things as they really are.
Unhallow M: Designates location as unholy.
Plane Shift: here it should be mentioned the unique, closed cosmology of Athas, with all the restriction it implies.
Animate Objects: Objects attack your foes.
Antilife Shell: 10-ft. field hedges out living creatures.
Banishment: Banishes 2 HD/level of extraplanar creatures.
Bear’s Endurance, Mass: As bear’s endurance, affects one subject/ level.
Blade Barrier: Wall of blades deals 1d6/level damage.
Bull’s Strength, Mass: As bull’s strength, affects one subject/level.
Braxatskin: [DS] Your skin hardens, granting armor bonus and damage reduction.
Create Undead: Create ghouls, ghasts, mummies, or mohrgs.
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Dispel Magic, Greater: As dispel magic, but up to +20 on check.
Eagle’s Splendor, Mass: As eagle’s splendor, affects one subject/level.
Find the Path: Shows most direct way to a location.
Forbiddance M: Blocks planar travel, damages creatures of different alignment.
Geas/Quest: As lesser geas, plus it affects any creature.
Glyph of Warding, Greater: As glyph of warding, but up to 10d8 damage or 6th-level spell.
Harm: Deals 10 points/level damage to target.
Heal: Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
Heroes’ Feast: Food for one creature/level cures and grants combat bonuses.
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass: Deals 2d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Owl’s Wisdom, Mass: As owl’s wisdom, affects one subject/level.
Planar Ally X: As lesser planar ally, but up to 12 HD.
Rejuvenate: [DS] Increase the fertility of the land.
Summon Monster VI: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Symbol of Fear M: Triggered rune panics nearby creatures.
Symbol of Persuasion M: Triggered rune charms nearby creatures.
Undeath to Death M: Destroys 1d4 HD/level undead (max 20d4).
Wind Walk: You and your allies turn vaporous and travel fast.
Word of Recall: Teleports you back to designated place.
Blade Barrier: as it creates metal blades, it should be for earth clerics only.
Create Undead: here should be alteration due to the uniqueness of the Athasian undeads. Or this one should be removed altogether.
Wind Walk: should be allowed for air clerics only
Blasphemy: Kills, paralyzes, weakens, or dazes nonevil subjects.
Control Weather: Changes weather in local area.
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Destruction F: Kills subject and destroys remains.
Dictum: Kills, paralyzes, slows, or deafens nonlawful subjects.
Lesser Elemental Chariot: [DS] Enchants chariot with elemental effects.
Ethereal Jaunt: You become ethereal for 1 round/level.
Holy Word: Kills, paralyzes, blinds, or deafens nongood subjects.
Infestation: [DS] Tiny parasites infect creatures within area.
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass: Deals 3d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Refuge M: Alters item to transport its possessor to you.
Regenerate: Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
Repulsion: Creatures can’t approach you.
Restoration, Greater X: As restoration, plus restores all levels and ability scores.
Resurrection M: Fully restore dead subject.
Sands of Time: [DS] Reverses or accelerates aging of a non-living object.
Scrying, Greater: As scrying, but faster and longer.
Summon Monster VII: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Symbol of Stunning M: Triggered rune stuns nearby creatures.
Symbol of Weakness M: Triggered rune weakens nearby creatures.
Unliving Identity: [DS] Turns a mindless animated undead into a thinking zombie, skeleton or exoskeleton.
Word of Chaos: Kills, confuses, stuns, or deafens nonchaotic subjects.
Control Weather: I think it should be for air and rain clerics only. And maybe water.
Ethereal Jaunt: it needs clarification how it works exactly in the DS cosmology. (Through the Gray, or?)
Antimagic Field: Negates magic within 10 ft.
Cloak of Chaos F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against lawful spells.
Create Greater Undead M: Create shadows, wraiths, spectres, or devourers.
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Dimensional Lock: Teleportation and interplanar travel blocked for one day/level.
Discern Location: Reveals exact location of creature or object.
Earthquake: Intense tremor shakes 5-ft./level radius.
Elemental Storm: [DS] Deals 1d6/level energy damage.
Holy Aura F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against evil spells.
Planar Ally, Greater X: As lesser planar ally, but up to 18 HD.
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass: Deals 4d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Shield of Law F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against chaotic spells.
Spell Immunity, Greater: As spell immunity, but up to 8th-level spells.
Summon Monster VIII: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Symbol of Death M: Triggered rune slays nearby creatures.
Symbol of Insanity M: Triggered rune renders nearby creatures insane.
Unholy Aura F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells.
Create Greater Undead: due to the unique Athasian undeads it should be removed, or extensively changed.
Earthquake: definitely allowable only for earth clerics! And maybe magma, in volcanic regions.
Astral Projection M: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.
Energy Drain: Subject gains 2d4 negative levels.
Etherealness: Travel to Ethereal Plane with companions.
Gate X: Connects two planes for travel or summoning.
Greater Elemental Chariot: [DS] As lesser elemental chariot, but with greater effects.
Heal, Mass: As heal, but with several subjects.
Heartseeker: [DS] Creates a deadly piercing weapon.
Implosion: Kills one creature/round.
Miracle X: Requests a deity’s intercession.
Soul Bind F: Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection.
Storm of Vengeance: Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.
Summon Monster IX: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
True Resurrection M: As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.
Astral Projection: this spell should be removed
Etheralness: should be described how it works in the Athasian cosmology (through Gray, or?)
Gate: here again comes in to the picture the blocking effect of the Gray. It should be mentioned.
Storm of Vengeance: it can be OK, if the damage somehow connects to the patron element.
-the comments I made were mainly from flavourwise point. But I don't think that the changes to the mentioned spells causes much balance issue.
-by the way, balance: how is it, that air and earth clerics can choose from 5 domains? Anyway I wouldn't grant the 'Meek of the Land' domain to air clerics. Not fitting....
-instead of the celestial and fiendish template, it greatly fits in if the summoned monsters has the appropriate element or half-elemental template from the Manual of the Planes. This is valid for all 'summon monster' and 'planar ally' spells for cleric. (I know that MM is not under Open Gaming Licence, but for house rule everything goes)
I hope it was helpful!