Good, Evil, Neutrality, and the Balance? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Good, Evil, Neutrality, and the Balance?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Oct 02, 2003 18:36:03 With a deity from the Good and Evil pantheons gone then Neutrality is now for the first time, the most dominate of the three. So the ratio is now Six Light, Six Darkness, and Seven Twilight or Neutral. Two of the Three Primary Deities are gone, leaving Gilean alone. So there goes that "Big Three" that is one the keystones of Dragonlance.
Gilean is a deity of Balance so he should be aware of this imbalance. He is a god of knowledge and logic in Dragonlance, however, if logic has one fault it is that fact that "Logic Doesn't Care."
Ofcourse, there always the force outside of the Big Three Triangle, CHAOS.

As Majere was second only to Paladine, then he'll most likely take the lead for Light. Sarges will via with Chemosh for Darkness.

But if the Big Triangle is to be restored the one of three things might happean.
1) One of the Deities for Neutrality will either surrender godhood, or get killed off.
2) The Dark Queen will be resurrected and Paladine will regain godhood. (Let us all hope that it will NOT be this one Pal and Taky dominated everything to much in Dragonlance and should left out.
3) Two new gods one for the Light and One for the Darkness. These two will come from either mortals on Krynn (please NOT Mina!!) or a per of deities from Beyond, like Majere and Reorx. Whoever they turn out to be neither will take the leadership of either Light or Dark. They will just restore the Balance to Seven, Seven, Seven.

;) So there's my two steel

Feel free to opine for yourself
#2
randpc
Oct 02, 2003 19:04:59 Not that I believe it's particularly likely but more plausible then Tacky being resurrected IMHO while managing to restore the balance-

Paladine regains GodHood, while Raistlin is somehow nominated into the Evil Pantheon.
#3
carteeg
Oct 02, 2003 19:53:50 WoS SPOILER SPACE

Kinda tough for Raistlin to get ascended since he's dead and gone. I'd say Dalamar or Mina have a better shot at it at the moment. As for Paladine re-ascending, it's possible. Personally I hope the bone-head bites it. But that's just me.
:D
#4
randpc
Oct 02, 2003 20:11:18
Originally posted by carteeg
WoS SPOILER SPACE

Kinda tough for Raistlin to get ascended since he's dead and gone. I'd say Dalamar or Mina have a better shot at it at the moment. As for Paladine re-ascending, it's possible. Personally I hope the bone-head bites it. But that's just me.
:D

Dead and gone never stopped him before, if he can come back from the Abyss a mere venture into the realm of the undead should be a nice vacation for him.

In any case, I'm betting they'll stick with the present unbalanced 6/7/6 panetheon.
#5
zombiegleemax
Oct 02, 2003 21:19:08
Originally posted by RandPC
Dead and gone never stopped him before, if he can come back from the Abyss a mere venture into the realm of the undead should be a nice vacation for him.

In any case, I'm betting they'll stick with the present unbalanced 6/7/6 panetheon.

Uh uh. He's not coming back. Raistlin's bored of Krynn, and he promised Caramon that only when the two are together that they'll leave. In the end he was walking with Caramon and Tika to the afterlife, to join the other Companions. No matter his evilness, the others still loved him like a brother. And he loved his brother (bout the only thing he loved other than magic). You could even say after the Legends series, he comes to remember he loves caramon more than magic. Either way, he's gone. and no coming back.
Sorry for that rant. I love raistlin like the next, but it's his time to go.
#6
cam_banks
Oct 02, 2003 22:03:53
Originally posted by DaemonAngel
As Majere was second only to Paladine, then he'll most likely take the lead for Light. Sarges will via with Chemosh for Darkness.

Majere is not second only to Paladine. Mishakal holds the position of the other Greater God in the Pantheon of Light, much as Sargonnas is the other Greater God in the Pantheon of Darkness. So, it's much more likely that Mishakal and Sargonnas will, initially, decide to call the shots for their respective pantheons. Majere, of course, will continue to advise.

Cheers,
Cam
#7
Matthew_L._Martin
Oct 02, 2003 22:14:06
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Majere is not second only to Paladine. Mishakal holds the position of the other Greater God in the Pantheon of Light, much as Sargonnas is the other Greater God in the Pantheon of Darkness.

This confusion arises from the Appendix, which does state Majere is second only to Paladine. (I had neglected the TotL divine hierarchies when writing that. :-) )

That said, the two perspectives can be reconciled. Majere is greater in spiritual glory and wisdom, but Mishakal has the stronger influence and power in the world of Krynn.

Matthew L. Martin
#8
dragontooth
Oct 02, 2003 23:00:46 Neutral doesn't hold any power, really. The neutral gods main goal is to side with the one that is on the downside of the balance. So if anything 6/7/6 actually has a chance to perserve the balance then any other time period on Krynn. Simply due to the fact that the neutral have more of a change the motion of the pedium(sp).
#9
darthsylver
Oct 02, 2003 23:39:31 Ah the heck with. The three gods of magic merge and become one very powerful god and taken over the enitre pantheon. They disband the "pantheons" and tell the other gods to tend to their flocks. As the three gods of magic have worked together before they have no problem maintaining the balnce between good and evil as there is now 5 good gods, 5 evil gods and 7 neutral gods.
#10
baron_the_curse
Oct 03, 2003 1:23:00 Wait, Raistlin can’t die. He has to stay forever and ever so he can always intervene in a timely manner whenever the world goes awry…. you know like that third generation clone… Elminster… (Gandalf is a rip-off of Merlin and Elminster of Gandalf)…

Hmm… not sure where I’m going with this…

I miss Raistlin…
#11
zombiegleemax
Oct 03, 2003 5:50:40 As cool as it would be to have Raistlin around forever, I think he's earned a well-deserved rest from the world of Dragonlance.

And in the end he wasn't utterly evil anyways, so he'd make a crappy replacement to Takhisis.
#12
darthsylver
Oct 03, 2003 8:30:38 Originally posted by Baron the Curse

I miss Raistlin…

Well what you could do is put a portion of his spirit or essence in a magical item. You know like the staff, or the dagger or maybe even a book ;) ;) . That way he will last forever!!!!!!!:D :D :D
#13
zombiegleemax
Oct 03, 2003 9:31:24 I have to agree that "extra neutrality," (if such a thing could exist) would in no way upset the balance.

The balance is between good and evil. One neutral god, or fifty neutral gods will not make a difference as far as the balance is concerned. (except for the fact that more neutral dieties would have an easier time maintaining the balance, rather than upsetting it.)
#14
marius4
Oct 04, 2003 23:18:07 The problem with fifty gods of neutrality would be stagnation (see below). Hypothetically it might seem like an ideal state for Krynn, but in reality--well, "fantasy world" reality--nothing would ever happen. A story is a story b/c of conflict and resolution; if there is no conflict then there isn't much going on. Everyone just sits around and meditates or s/thing. Plus, enforcing strict neutrality or balance would be against the Neutral Gods' own precepts anyway...their gift to the world was, after all, freedom of choice. Going back to the original topic/question, the 6/7/6 balance seems relatively benign since Gilean's followers are typically non-interfering; I'm not convinced it will become problematic I guess....

Hm...also, below is a really good post by Christopher Coyle that I think is relevant! :D

There is a misconception about Balance and Krynn.

The Balance on Krynn does not mean that there must be a perfect "balance" between Good and Evil at all times. It means that the 'pendulum' must swing between the two freely. Sometimes, it swings too far one way and in response, the Gods of Neutrality must intervene. It is their job to make sure that the pendulum moves freely and does not get stuck anywhere...

Too much Order = Greygem.

Too much Good = Cataclysm.

Too much Evil = War of the Lance.

Too much "Chaos" = The Chaos War (when they determined that the best way to fight Chaos was by uniting under the most utterly fanatical/rigid organization... one forged by the Dark Queen, who let's face it... relishes War more than either of the War gods )

But, too much "Balance" = Stagnation.

Christopher
__________________
Christopher Coyle
Editor & Art Director
Sovereign Press, Inc.
[email]ccoyle@sovpress.com[/email]

#15
marius4
Oct 04, 2003 23:32:59 One more thought...
What with the talk of filling the spaces of the pantheon (and don't forget the space at the forefront of the White Robes), why not tie that into a campaign? Two great leadership positions for Good PCs, and a great villain for the DM to create! Not sure if divine ascension fits my bag (or however that phrase goes), and I doubt such new deities would head the pantheon, but it all sounds like a lot of potential fun for somebody...!
#16
zombiegleemax
Oct 05, 2003 8:57:28 Well, you kinda used my point, thinking you were arguing against it, really.

With the non-interfence of the neutral dieties, their numbers do not matter, they do not upset the balance.

They only interfere when the balance is upset. Like when they joined with the good dieties during the War of the Lance, and when the insisted that the Knights of Takhisis were in the best position to lead Ansalon in the Chaos War.
This taking sides when necessary is an enforcement.

Stagnation cannot be caused by too many neutral dieties, because......they are neutral.

Neutrality is not a philosophy in and of itself, it is a non-commitment, or belief in the balance of two or more other philosophies.

How could there be too much balance? I cannot think of a single example of too much balance that would better fit into too much of something else.

For example - no conflict between good and evil is better represented by an overabundance of law rather than neutrality. (take the Wizards of High Sorcery while in a tower, for example. The laws overcome the differences.) - In this case, the result is not stagnation, but a powerful cooperation.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Oct 02, 2003 18:36:03	With a deity from the Good and Evil pantheons gone then Neutrality is now for the first time, the most dominate of the three. So the ratio is now Six Light, Six Darkness, and Seven Twilight or Neutral. Two of the Three Primary Deities are gone, leaving Gilean alone. So there goes that "Big Three" that is one the keystones of Dragonlance. Gilean is a deity of Balance so he should be aware of this imbalance. He is a god of knowledge and logic in Dragonlance, however, if logic has one fault it is that fact that "Logic Doesn't Care." Ofcourse, there always the force outside of the Big Three Triangle, CHAOS. As Majere was second only to Paladine, then he'll most likely take the lead for Light. Sarges will via with Chemosh for Darkness. But if the Big Triangle is to be restored the one of three things might happean. 1) One of the Deities for Neutrality will either surrender godhood, or get killed off. 2) The Dark Queen will be resurrected and Paladine will regain godhood. (Let us all hope that it will NOT be this one Pal and Taky dominated everything to much in Dragonlance and should left out. 3) Two new gods one for the Light and One for the Darkness. These two will come from either mortals on Krynn (please NOT Mina!!) or a per of deities from Beyond, like Majere and Reorx. Whoever they turn out to be neither will take the leadership of either Light or Dark. They will just restore the Balance to Seven, Seven, Seven. ;) So there's my two steel Feel free to opine for yourself
#2 randpc Oct 02, 2003 19:04:59	Not that I believe it's particularly likely but more plausible then Tacky being resurrected IMHO while managing to restore the balance- Paladine regains GodHood, while Raistlin is somehow nominated into the Evil Pantheon.
#3 carteeg Oct 02, 2003 19:53:50	WoS SPOILER SPACE Kinda tough for Raistlin to get ascended since he's dead and gone. I'd say Dalamar or Mina have a better shot at it at the moment. As for Paladine re-ascending, it's possible. Personally I hope the bone-head bites it. But that's just me. :D
#4 randpc Oct 02, 2003 20:11:18	Originally posted by carteeg WoS SPOILER SPACE Kinda tough for Raistlin to get ascended since he's dead and gone. I'd say Dalamar or Mina have a better shot at it at the moment. As for Paladine re-ascending, it's possible. Personally I hope the bone-head bites it. But that's just me. :D Dead and gone never stopped him before, if he can come back from the Abyss a mere venture into the realm of the undead should be a nice vacation for him. In any case, I'm betting they'll stick with the present unbalanced 6/7/6 panetheon.
#5 zombiegleemax Oct 02, 2003 21:19:08	Originally posted by RandPC Dead and gone never stopped him before, if he can come back from the Abyss a mere venture into the realm of the undead should be a nice vacation for him. In any case, I'm betting they'll stick with the present unbalanced 6/7/6 panetheon. Uh uh. He's not coming back. Raistlin's bored of Krynn, and he promised Caramon that only when the two are together that they'll leave. In the end he was walking with Caramon and Tika to the afterlife, to join the other Companions. No matter his evilness, the others still loved him like a brother. And he loved his brother (bout the only thing he loved other than magic). You could even say after the Legends series, he comes to remember he loves caramon more than magic. Either way, he's gone. and no coming back. Sorry for that rant. I love raistlin like the next, but it's his time to go.
#6 cam_banks Oct 02, 2003 22:03:53	Originally posted by DaemonAngel As Majere was second only to Paladine, then he'll most likely take the lead for Light. Sarges will via with Chemosh for Darkness. Majere is not second only to Paladine. Mishakal holds the position of the other Greater God in the Pantheon of Light, much as Sargonnas is the other Greater God in the Pantheon of Darkness. So, it's much more likely that Mishakal and Sargonnas will, initially, decide to call the shots for their respective pantheons. Majere, of course, will continue to advise. Cheers, Cam
#7 Matthew_L._Martin Oct 02, 2003 22:14:06	Originally posted by Cam Banks Majere is not second only to Paladine. Mishakal holds the position of the other Greater God in the Pantheon of Light, much as Sargonnas is the other Greater God in the Pantheon of Darkness. This confusion arises from the Appendix, which does state Majere is second only to Paladine. (I had neglected the TotL divine hierarchies when writing that. :-) ) That said, the two perspectives can be reconciled. Majere is greater in spiritual glory and wisdom, but Mishakal has the stronger influence and power in the world of Krynn. Matthew L. Martin
#8 dragontooth Oct 02, 2003 23:00:46	Neutral doesn't hold any power, really. The neutral gods main goal is to side with the one that is on the downside of the balance. So if anything 6/7/6 actually has a chance to perserve the balance then any other time period on Krynn. Simply due to the fact that the neutral have more of a change the motion of the pedium(sp).
#9 darthsylver Oct 02, 2003 23:39:31	Ah the heck with. The three gods of magic merge and become one very powerful god and taken over the enitre pantheon. They disband the "pantheons" and tell the other gods to tend to their flocks. As the three gods of magic have worked together before they have no problem maintaining the balnce between good and evil as there is now 5 good gods, 5 evil gods and 7 neutral gods.
#10 baron_the_curse Oct 03, 2003 1:23:00	Wait, Raistlin can’t die. He has to stay forever and ever so he can always intervene in a timely manner whenever the world goes awry…. you know like that third generation clone… Elminster… (Gandalf is a rip-off of Merlin and Elminster of Gandalf)… Hmm… not sure where I’m going with this… I miss Raistlin…
#11 zombiegleemax Oct 03, 2003 5:50:40	As cool as it would be to have Raistlin around forever, I think he's earned a well-deserved rest from the world of Dragonlance. And in the end he wasn't utterly evil anyways, so he'd make a crappy replacement to Takhisis.
#12 darthsylver Oct 03, 2003 8:30:38	Originally posted by Baron the Curse I miss Raistlin… Well what you could do is put a portion of his spirit or essence in a magical item. You know like the staff, or the dagger or maybe even a book ;) ;) . That way he will last forever!!!!!!!:D :D :D
#13 zombiegleemax Oct 03, 2003 9:31:24	I have to agree that "extra neutrality," (if such a thing could exist) would in no way upset the balance. The balance is between good and evil. One neutral god, or fifty neutral gods will not make a difference as far as the balance is concerned. (except for the fact that more neutral dieties would have an easier time maintaining the balance, rather than upsetting it.)
#14 marius4 Oct 04, 2003 23:18:07	The problem with fifty gods of neutrality would be stagnation (see below). Hypothetically it might seem like an ideal state for Krynn, but in reality--well, "fantasy world" reality--nothing would ever happen. A story is a story b/c of conflict and resolution; if there is no conflict then there isn't much going on. Everyone just sits around and meditates or s/thing. Plus, enforcing strict neutrality or balance would be against the Neutral Gods' own precepts anyway...their gift to the world was, after all, freedom of choice. Going back to the original topic/question, the 6/7/6 balance seems relatively benign since Gilean's followers are typically non-interfering; I'm not convinced it will become problematic I guess.... Hm...also, below is a really good post by Christopher Coyle that I think is relevant! :D There is a misconception about Balance and Krynn. The Balance on Krynn does not mean that there must be a perfect "balance" between Good and Evil at all times. It means that the 'pendulum' must swing between the two freely. Sometimes, it swings too far one way and in response, the Gods of Neutrality must intervene. It is their job to make sure that the pendulum moves freely and does not get stuck anywhere... Too much Order = Greygem. Too much Good = Cataclysm. Too much Evil = War of the Lance. Too much "Chaos" = The Chaos War (when they determined that the best way to fight Chaos was by uniting under the most utterly fanatical/rigid organization... one forged by the Dark Queen, who let's face it... relishes War more than either of the War gods ) But, too much "Balance" = Stagnation. Christopher __________________ Christopher Coyle Editor & Art Director Sovereign Press, Inc. [email]ccoyle@sovpress.com[/email]
#15 marius4 Oct 04, 2003 23:32:59	One more thought... What with the talk of filling the spaces of the pantheon (and don't forget the space at the forefront of the White Robes), why not tie that into a campaign? Two great leadership positions for Good PCs, and a great villain for the DM to create! Not sure if divine ascension fits my bag (or however that phrase goes), and I doubt such new deities would head the pantheon, but it all sounds like a lot of potential fun for somebody...!
#16 zombiegleemax Oct 05, 2003 8:57:28	Well, you kinda used my point, thinking you were arguing against it, really. With the non-interfence of the neutral dieties, their numbers do not matter, they do not upset the balance. They only interfere when the balance is upset. Like when they joined with the good dieties during the War of the Lance, and when the insisted that the Knights of Takhisis were in the best position to lead Ansalon in the Chaos War. This taking sides when necessary is an enforcement. Stagnation cannot be caused by too many neutral dieties, because......they are neutral. Neutrality is not a philosophy in and of itself, it is a non-commitment, or belief in the balance of two or more other philosophies. How could there be too much balance? I cannot think of a single example of too much balance that would better fit into too much of something else. For example - no conflict between good and evil is better represented by an overabundance of law rather than neutrality. (take the Wizards of High Sorcery while in a tower, for example. The laws overcome the differences.) - In this case, the result is not stagnation, but a powerful cooperation.