What religion is Cuthbert a Saint in? Are there other Saints? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

What religion is Cuthbert a Saint in? Are there other Saints?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Oct 03, 2003 8:47:28 Well?
#2
zombiegleemax
Oct 03, 2003 8:58:03 Good question Yamo,

I have not really seen any background material on St. Cuthbert before he became a Lesser Deity. His alignment is LG / LN, and according to the GH Adventures 1E sourcebook, he definitely lives in a plane, which one is not mentioned. He rarely leaves it and only in dire circumstances will he take a mortal form.

IMHO, seeing as there is a friendly rivalry between Pholtus and St. Cuthbert and followers, perhaps he was a follower of Pholtus that led his own following? Mayhaps he was sainted after he "died" and became a lesser deity, and a group of Pholtus followers began to worship St. Cuthbert over Pholtus? Of course to Pholtus followers this is heresy, but stranger things have happened in the RW!

Just some food for thought about St. Cuthbert. Also, being the GM, create whatever you feel is appropriate, it's your world!

Safe travels,
#3
zombiegleemax
Oct 03, 2003 9:46:58 St. Cuthbert was canonized in the late 1600's IIRC. He was primarily a hermit and died in Ireland I think, in a cave somewhere, by himself.

I can't remember the details, to be honest, but essentially he was a real world (earth) cleric who was given sainthood by the Roman Catholic church.

Perhaps he went to another plane of existance and found it wanting?
#4
Halberkill
Oct 03, 2003 10:50:08 I thought I read somewhere that he was an offshoot deity to Rao.

Halber
#5
zombiegleemax
Oct 03, 2003 12:34:26 I believe the Saint refers more to his character than to being canonized by some organized religion. Saintly is the label given to the lawful good alignment in the alignmnet chart at the back of the 1E PHB. EGG told me that he pictured Cuthbert in life as a follower of another Greyhawk deity ( I don't remember for sure, but Rao would make a perfect fit considering the strong following both have in the Furyondy/Veluna region and the good relationship the followers have). It was his almost over-zealousness to adherence to doctrine that led to the LG to LG/LN alignment shift.
St. Trowbane, from the later (post TSR) Gord novels was basically used to replace Cuthbert for legal reasons, but Gary took the name from a seperate deity he had been working on, but never published.
The first printing of B1 gives info for setting it in Greyhawk, and one of the cleric pre gens is a follower of St. Cthbert.
Another cleric is a follower of St. Carmichael (a little homage to himself no doubt by author Michael Carr).
Scott
#6
zombiegleemax
Oct 03, 2003 14:15:36 Perhaps it is my ignorance of the meaning behind "IIRC" Delglath, but as far as I'm concerned there is no Ireland on Oerth.
#7
Argon
Oct 03, 2003 16:01:48 I placed ST. Cuthbert under Rao portfolio he is a servant of Rao which has his own followers as well. I also placed Heironious under Rao but in Furyondy he shares an equal portfolio status. Murlynd is the god of tactics, and warfare which serves Heironious. He is often referred to as the squire of Heironious.
I have sects of Hextor which are more lawful than evil. I think of how knights reacted before they came under the guidance of leaders like Joan of Arc. Hextor has a larger following under mercenary types, and normal soldiery.
In Veluna and Furyondy it is considered heresy to speak the name of Hextor.
This is just a few of the things I have done in my campaign. So I don't what to hear people crying about cannon because it's my campaign.
#8
zombiegleemax
Oct 03, 2003 21:48:35
Originally posted by abysslin
Perhaps it is my ignorance of the meaning behind "IIRC" Delglath, but as far as I'm concerned there is no Ireland on Oerth.

And your point is?

St. Cuthbert was a cleric in the 7th-century and was noted as having performed many miracles and having the gift of prophesy, power over the wind and waves and to be a zealous follower of doctrine.

I answered the original question, he is a Roman Catholic and was sainted by the Pope. There is little doubt (in my mind) that Gygax used this real world saint as a guide for the St. Cuthbert deity as presented in the original boxed set.

Though many people don't like the notion, Gygax had many cross-world adventures and had many influences from other dimensions, worlds and planes affect Oerth. If you have a problem with that, quite frankly, you can go jump off a very high cliff with a sharp, rocky bottom.
#9
gadodel
Oct 04, 2003 3:39:58 IIRC, Gygax answered this question over on the Enworld boards some two years ago. Delglath is correct, though EGG said that he did not intend a RL religion to be used on Oerth....
#10
zombiegleemax
Oct 04, 2003 10:15:17 Well then, It was my ignorance behind the meaning of "IIRC," which I still have 0 clue the meaning of?

Apparently something like "In Real Life" or similiar...

Jump off a cliff? /ru

Abysslin
#11
zombiegleemax
Oct 04, 2003 10:23:31 EGG has said numerous times that the Cuthbert from Greyhawk has no relation to a real world Saint Cuthbert, nor was the name inspired by the real world saint. It was either a subconscious influence or a coincidence.
Scott
#12
grodog
Oct 04, 2003 13:37:22 IIRC = If I Recall Correctly

On the subject of Saints, Scott Bennie's "Setting Saintly Standards" in Dragon 79 (November 1983) offers some excellent ideas on how to incorporate saints into your D&D game. Gary Holian's Death Knight articles in Living Greyhawk Journals 6 and 7 also draw upon Bennie's article for inspiration.

If you're interested in developing saints as part of your GH religions, and want more info/details on how to build them from the ground-up than is provided in the 3e D&DG book, check out WotC's series of Primal Order generic D&D supplements from the early 1990s (in particular the first book, _The Primal Order_, written by Peter Adkison and others).
#13
zombiegleemax
Oct 05, 2003 8:38:06
Originally posted by abysslin
Well then, It was my ignorance behind the meaning of "IIRC," which I still have 0 clue the meaning of

Like gro said, If I Recall Correctly. I try and use it as often as possible because I rarely check what I'm saying here and so want it known that I'm operating off of memory and thus could be wrong.
#14
zombiegleemax
Oct 05, 2003 11:34:21 I thought Saint Cuthbert was a mortal man that came from another prime material world (namely, earth) that earned godhood. I thought I had read this in my books at home but maybe I will have to double check...
#15
zombiegleemax
Oct 05, 2003 15:51:22 This is a great point, but one that speaks to a prehistory of Greyhawk that needs developing.
#16
grodog
Oct 07, 2003 21:14:41
Originally posted by Ravage
I thought Saint Cuthbert was a mortal man that came from another prime material world (namely, earth) that earned godhood. I thought I had read this in my books at home but maybe I will have to double check...

I'd be interested in what you find, Ravage!
#17
Elendur
Oct 10, 2003 12:50:43 In my campaign the Greyhawk pantheon is 'loosely affiliated' not hierarchical or anything. So I just use the term "Saint" to mean "Good ascended mortal". As to how he ascended or when, I haven't a clue.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Oct 03, 2003 8:47:28	Well?
#2 zombiegleemax Oct 03, 2003 8:58:03	Good question Yamo, I have not really seen any background material on St. Cuthbert before he became a Lesser Deity. His alignment is LG / LN, and according to the GH Adventures 1E sourcebook, he definitely lives in a plane, which one is not mentioned. He rarely leaves it and only in dire circumstances will he take a mortal form. IMHO, seeing as there is a friendly rivalry between Pholtus and St. Cuthbert and followers, perhaps he was a follower of Pholtus that led his own following? Mayhaps he was sainted after he "died" and became a lesser deity, and a group of Pholtus followers began to worship St. Cuthbert over Pholtus? Of course to Pholtus followers this is heresy, but stranger things have happened in the RW! Just some food for thought about St. Cuthbert. Also, being the GM, create whatever you feel is appropriate, it's your world! Safe travels,
#3 zombiegleemax Oct 03, 2003 9:46:58	St. Cuthbert was canonized in the late 1600's IIRC. He was primarily a hermit and died in Ireland I think, in a cave somewhere, by himself. I can't remember the details, to be honest, but essentially he was a real world (earth) cleric who was given sainthood by the Roman Catholic church. Perhaps he went to another plane of existance and found it wanting?
#4 Halberkill Oct 03, 2003 10:50:08	I thought I read somewhere that he was an offshoot deity to Rao. Halber
#5 zombiegleemax Oct 03, 2003 12:34:26	I believe the Saint refers more to his character than to being canonized by some organized religion. Saintly is the label given to the lawful good alignment in the alignmnet chart at the back of the 1E PHB. EGG told me that he pictured Cuthbert in life as a follower of another Greyhawk deity ( I don't remember for sure, but Rao would make a perfect fit considering the strong following both have in the Furyondy/Veluna region and the good relationship the followers have). It was his almost over-zealousness to adherence to doctrine that led to the LG to LG/LN alignment shift. St. Trowbane, from the later (post TSR) Gord novels was basically used to replace Cuthbert for legal reasons, but Gary took the name from a seperate deity he had been working on, but never published. The first printing of B1 gives info for setting it in Greyhawk, and one of the cleric pre gens is a follower of St. Cthbert. Another cleric is a follower of St. Carmichael (a little homage to himself no doubt by author Michael Carr). Scott
#6 zombiegleemax Oct 03, 2003 14:15:36	Perhaps it is my ignorance of the meaning behind "IIRC" Delglath, but as far as I'm concerned there is no Ireland on Oerth.
#7 Argon Oct 03, 2003 16:01:48	I placed ST. Cuthbert under Rao portfolio he is a servant of Rao which has his own followers as well. I also placed Heironious under Rao but in Furyondy he shares an equal portfolio status. Murlynd is the god of tactics, and warfare which serves Heironious. He is often referred to as the squire of Heironious. I have sects of Hextor which are more lawful than evil. I think of how knights reacted before they came under the guidance of leaders like Joan of Arc. Hextor has a larger following under mercenary types, and normal soldiery. In Veluna and Furyondy it is considered heresy to speak the name of Hextor. This is just a few of the things I have done in my campaign. So I don't what to hear people crying about cannon because it's my campaign.
#8 zombiegleemax Oct 03, 2003 21:48:35	Originally posted by abysslin Perhaps it is my ignorance of the meaning behind "IIRC" Delglath, but as far as I'm concerned there is no Ireland on Oerth. And your point is? St. Cuthbert was a cleric in the 7th-century and was noted as having performed many miracles and having the gift of prophesy, power over the wind and waves and to be a zealous follower of doctrine. I answered the original question, he is a Roman Catholic and was sainted by the Pope. There is little doubt (in my mind) that Gygax used this real world saint as a guide for the St. Cuthbert deity as presented in the original boxed set. Though many people don't like the notion, Gygax had many cross-world adventures and had many influences from other dimensions, worlds and planes affect Oerth. If you have a problem with that, quite frankly, you can go jump off a very high cliff with a sharp, rocky bottom.
#9 gadodel Oct 04, 2003 3:39:58	IIRC, Gygax answered this question over on the Enworld boards some two years ago. Delglath is correct, though EGG said that he did not intend a RL religion to be used on Oerth....
#10 zombiegleemax Oct 04, 2003 10:15:17	Well then, It was my ignorance behind the meaning of "IIRC," which I still have 0 clue the meaning of? Apparently something like "In Real Life" or similiar... Jump off a cliff? /ru Abysslin
#11 zombiegleemax Oct 04, 2003 10:23:31	EGG has said numerous times that the Cuthbert from Greyhawk has no relation to a real world Saint Cuthbert, nor was the name inspired by the real world saint. It was either a subconscious influence or a coincidence. Scott
#12 grodog Oct 04, 2003 13:37:22	IIRC = If I Recall Correctly On the subject of Saints, Scott Bennie's "Setting Saintly Standards" in Dragon 79 (November 1983) offers some excellent ideas on how to incorporate saints into your D&D game. Gary Holian's Death Knight articles in Living Greyhawk Journals 6 and 7 also draw upon Bennie's article for inspiration. If you're interested in developing saints as part of your GH religions, and want more info/details on how to build them from the ground-up than is provided in the 3e D&DG book, check out WotC's series of Primal Order generic D&D supplements from the early 1990s (in particular the first book, _The Primal Order_, written by Peter Adkison and others).
#13 zombiegleemax Oct 05, 2003 8:38:06	Originally posted by abysslin Well then, It was my ignorance behind the meaning of "IIRC," which I still have 0 clue the meaning of Like gro said, If I Recall Correctly. I try and use it as often as possible because I rarely check what I'm saying here and so want it known that I'm operating off of memory and thus could be wrong.
#14 zombiegleemax Oct 05, 2003 11:34:21	I thought Saint Cuthbert was a mortal man that came from another prime material world (namely, earth) that earned godhood. I thought I had read this in my books at home but maybe I will have to double check...
#15 zombiegleemax Oct 05, 2003 15:51:22	This is a great point, but one that speaks to a prehistory of Greyhawk that needs developing.
#16 grodog Oct 07, 2003 21:14:41	Originally posted by Ravage I thought Saint Cuthbert was a mortal man that came from another prime material world (namely, earth) that earned godhood. I thought I had read this in my books at home but maybe I will have to double check... I'd be interested in what you find, Ravage!
#17 Elendur Oct 10, 2003 12:50:43	In my campaign the Greyhawk pantheon is 'loosely affiliated' not hierarchical or anything. So I just use the term "Saint" to mean "Good ascended mortal". As to how he ascended or when, I haven't a clue.