Originally posted by Myrridin
Ok, I'm looking for some input on this prestige class, specifically it's balance in a campaign. Currently we're running into some problems with the war mage being the deciding factor in most battles due to the increase in damage on all damage dice for a spell. It makes the lvl 8 mage's fireball 8d6+16, which is pretty nasty in an area. Magic Missle becomes 4d4+12, that sort of thing. What do you guys think, from a balance perspective?
Per dice rolled, you add the +1, +2, etc. It seems unbalanced, except that in order to become the class, especially if you are a WoHS or KoN, it will be quite a few levels off. Look at the feats needed, you need three for WoHS, and three more for the War Mage, plus skills.
Thanks for the input.
A 5th level human Wizard could qualify for the War Mage prestige class.
If you're a Wizard/Wizard of High Sorcery then you'd have to be 12th level to qualify for the War Mage prestige class. i.e. your first level of War Mage would be 13th character level.
Originally posted by iltharanos
A 6th level sorcerer of any race could qualify for the War Mage prestige class.
A 5th level human Wizard could qualify for the War Mage prestige class.
If you're a Wizard/Wizard of High Sorcery then you'd have to be 12th level to qualify for the War Mage prestige class. i.e. your first level of War Mage would be 13th character level.
I did some checking last night, and I think you can meet all the pre-reqs for being a War Mage by being a Wizard 4/ WoHS 2. Then you can start taking War Mage from there. Being a Wizard, you get Scribe Scroll, and if you're human, you take Spell Focus and Eschew Materials at level 1. Now you've fulilled the feat req's for WoHS. At level 3 you take Combat Casting, and at level 6 you take Weapon Focus. All you have to do is keep Spellcraft maxed, and one other skill, and you're fine. Still looks like you're in the prestige class pretty quickly.
Originally posted by Myrridin
I did some checking last night, and I think you can meet all the pre-reqs for being a War Mage by being a Wizard 4/ WoHS 2. Then you can start taking War Mage from there. Being a Wizard, you get Scribe Scroll, and if you're human, you take Spell Focus and Eschew Materials at level 1. Now you've fulilled the feat req's for WoHS. At level 3 you take Combat Casting, and at level 6 you take Weapon Focus. All you have to do is keep Spellcraft maxed, and one other skill, and you're fine. Still looks like you're in the prestige class pretty quickly.
Eschew Materials is not a metamagic feat.
Wiz 1: Combat Casting, Eschew Materials, Scribe Scroll
Wiz 3: Spell Focus (abj)
Wiz 5: Still Spell
Wiz 5/WoHS 1: Weapon Focus
If you reallywant Spellcasting Prodigy you'd either have to delay one PrC until level 10, or pick up a fighter level, which would look like this (again, assuming human):
Wiz1: Combat Casting, Scribe Scroll, Spellcasting Prodigy.
Wiz1/Ftr1: Weapon Focus
Wiz2/Ftr1: Eschew Materials
Wiz5/Ftr1: Spell Focus (abj), Still Spell
...and into WoHS and War Mage.
EDIT: Forgot to add Spellcasting Prodigy in my example. Silly rabbit.
Originally posted by Shugi
In that case, let's try a human Wiz5/WoHS1. No books here, so tell me if I'm wrong about something:
Wiz 1: Combat Casting, Eschew Materials, Scribe Scroll
Wiz 3: Spell Focus (abj)
Wiz 5: Still Spell
Wiz 5/WoHS 1: Weapon Focus
The Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class description implies that Wizards take the prestige class at the earliest possible level (i.e. after reaching lvl 4 Wiz, since arcane spellcasters capable of casting 3rd level or higher spells and are not in the WoHS are considered renegades), and that they keep advancing the prestige class until they have no other option but to advance their Wizard class level (i.e. they've maxed out Wizard of High Sorcery). See DLCS p. 76. Going by this route, your feat progression as a human could be:
1st level (Wiz 1): Scribe scroll (bonus), Spell Focus, Silent Spell
3rd level (Wiz 3): Combat Casting
6th level (Wiz 4/WoHS 2): Eschew Materials
9th level (Wiz 4/WoHS 5): Weapon Focus
Thus the human could add his 1st level of War Mage at 10th Character level.
But if you were non-human, you'd have one less feat at 1st level and would thus have to be 12th level as a Wiz/WoHS before you could qualify for the War Mage prestige class.
Of course, if you ignore the implication about continuing to advance your WoHS level once in the WoHS prestige class while still following the implication that you must join the prestige class as early as possible, then a human could advance like so:
1st level (Wiz 1): Scribe scroll (bonus), Spell Focus, Silent Spell
3rd level (Wiz 3): Combat Casting
5th level (Wiz 4/WoHS 1): no feats gained at this level
6th level (Wiz 5/WoHS 1): Eschew Materials,
7th level (Wiz 5/WoHS 1/Ftr 1): Weapon Focus (fighter bonus)
So then this guy can add his 1st level of War Mage at 8th Character Level.
EDIT:
A human could also go:
1st level (Wiz1): Scribe scroll (wiz bonus), Spell Focus, Silent Spell
2nd level (Wiz 1/Ftr 1): Weapon focus (ftr bonus)
3rd level (Wiz 2/Ftr 1): Combat Casting
5th level (Wiz 4/Ftr 1): no feats gained at this level
6th level (Wiz 4/Ftr 1/WoHS 1): Eschew Materials
So then Mr. Schmo here can add his 1st level of War Mage at 7th Character level.
Originally posted by iltharanos
\Of course, if you ignore the implication about continuing to advance your WoHS level once in the WoHS prestige class while still following the implication that you must join the prestige class as early as possible, then a human could advance like so...
\
I would ignore that implication. Wizards of High Sorcery operate as a prestige class like any other - you can continue to take a level in a base class so long as it doesn't contradict any stipulations in the class' prerequisites and requirements block. The flavor text before the actual rules are mostly for roleplaying and background guidelines.
Cheers,
Cam
If you really wanna throw the player a loop or two, catch him/her in a situation where all the combat spells they loaded up on are basically useless. (A low-monster, trap type dungeon like the Tomb of Horrors.)
Or maybe start to have bad guy war mages showing up, using the tactics that the player finds so devastating. It would have been commonplace for wizards to borrow ideas they heard other wizards using.
Then the player might save some of those good ideas for emergency situations, rather than dominating every combat, for fear that his powerful tactics will spread to the enemy.
It's not tactics, it's the straight up bonuses they get for being a War Mage. It's not any different to throw that fireball, it's different when it's doing 9d6+18 all of a sudden. Scorching Ray becomes 2, 4d6+8 no resist rays...it's nice, and Empowered, is better damage than most, if not all 4th level spells.
*shrug* It's looking too powerful in the actual game environment currently. This may change later, but for now...
All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.
The flat bonus of the war mage's battle magic ability is not a variable effect and is therefore not affected by the Empower Spell feat.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Here's what the SRD says about Empower Spell:
The flat bonus of the war mage's battle magic ability is not a variable effect and is therefore not affected by the Empower Spell feat.
True. But you could still empower the base 4d6 damage dealt by the scorching ray spell. So ...
4d6 damage = maximum of 24
empowered = maximum additional dmg of 12
5th lvl War Mage = +3 dmg/die = +12
With just an empowered scorching ray, the 5th level War Mage can theoretically deal a maximum of 48 points of damage. That's a vicious spellcaster ...
Originally posted by iltharanos
True. But you could still empower the base 4d6 damage dealt by the scorching ray spell. So ...
4d6 damage = maximum of 24
empowered = maximum additional dmg of 12
5th lvl War Mage = +3 dmg/die = +12
Take a fighter with the two-weapon fighting feat with an 18 Str wielding a longsword, and he can do an extra 12 points of damage as well.
With just an empowered scorching ray, the 5th level War Mage can theoretically deal a maximum of 48 points of damage. That's a vicious spellcaster ...
Exactly! This is the war mage, after all. He specializes in doing damage.
The DM really needs to consider all the ramifications of using the war mage in a game before he allows it. A player shouldn't take it simply because "it's a cool class".
The war mage works best when the mage is affiliated with a group that's in some sort of conflict, such as black robes in the dragonarmies, Thorn Knights, Solamnic Auxiliary Mages, Legion Sorcerers, white robes serving the Whitestone forces, or just your average mercenary sorcerer. It's not a class that one should add onto a regular joe spellcaster just because it is cool.
Yes, the war mage does more damage. Whether it is unbalanced or not depends on a lot of things. Is it unbalanced compared to the Rose Knight? The class does good in combat, but what happens in a dungeon, or on a reconnaissance mission?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Yes, the war mage does more damage. Whether it is unbalanced or not depends on a lot of things. Is it unbalanced compared to the Rose Knight? The class does good in combat, but what happens in a dungeon, or on a reconnaissance mission?
If the War Mage is a wizard, then he is the ultimate in terms of flexibility. Let's take this guy:
human Wiz 4/Ftr 1/WoHS 1/War Mage 5
-Got enemies to fry? He's a War Mage, enough said.
-Got places to go? Teleport
-Want to be disguised? Polymorph
-Want to do recon? Polymorph, greater invisibility
-Something too high and out of reach? Fly
-Moving too slowly? Haste
-Don't understand anyone's languages? Tongues, Comprehend Languages
-Magic trap needs to be disarmed? Dispel Magic, Break Enchantment
-Stone walls got you trapped? Passwall
-Need to communicate over vast differences and you're a couple centuries too early for cell phones? Sending
et cetera ad infinitum ad nauseum
Wizards just plain kick ass. :D
Originally posted by iltharanos
If the War Mage is a wizard, then he is the ultimate in terms of flexibility. Let's take this guy:
human Wiz 4/Ftr 1/WoHS 1/War Mage 5
-Got enemies to fry? He's a War Mage, enough said.
-Got places to go? Teleport
-Want to be disguised? Polymorph
-Want to do recon? Polymorph, greater invisibility
-Something too high and out of reach? Fly
-Moving too slowly? Haste
-Don't understand anyone's languages? Tongues, Comprehend Languages
-Magic trap needs to be disarmed? Dispel Magic, Break Enchantment
-Stone walls got you trapped? Passwall
-Need to communicate over vast differences and you're a couple centuries too early for cell phones? Sending
et cetera ad infinitum ad nauseum
Wizards just plain kick ass. :D
He's better suited to be a bad guy. With Evocation falling in the area of the Black Robes, a good number of your buff and nasty combat spells go to them.
Sure, others can take some good combat spells, but with the "focused specialization" ability, Black Robes who are Evokers are just downright nasty.
That gets me to thinking of more gruesome ways I can take apart my players.....bwaahaaahaaa!!
Tales of the Lance throwback on my part....
Originally posted by Craven Moistmuffins
Another thing to think about with the war mage.....
He's better suited to be a bad guy.
Most definitely! Imagine having a bunch of black robe war mages coming at you in the WotL. Or having Thorn Knight war mages (the best kind!) attacking you in the Chaos War.
The war mage can be a DM's friend.
J0llyblackgiant - Downside? AHhhhhhh, you don't get the research bonus from more levels of WoHS? Honestly, I'm not really sure that there are any.
I'm just asking here, but are prestige classes playtested for balance purposes? I only say that, because it doesn't look like the War Mage was. Yes, I like the class a lot, but it's not anywhere close to balanced. We're going to change it to being able to use the extra damage ability a number of times per day equal to the mage's levels in War Mage + Con bonus. Hopefully that'll bring the power level back down to a reasonable amount.
The more prerequisite feats, skills, or other abilities required for the class, the more limited the choices of the character, and therefore, (most often) the more powerful the PrC.
Granted, it doesn't always work like this...but I remember in the original discussion of the PrCs in the DMG 3.0, that was the thought behind them. The more sacrificed, the more gained.
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
I love the class. it's made with a specific purpose, and it does that purpose well. *G* Now, you want nasty? Have a War Mage (whose also a Wizard of High Sorcery) cast an Empowered, Heightened Scorching Ray (or any fun spell of death and destruction) upon the 3-moon alignment............... THAT, my friends, hurts.
You don't lose anything by taking the class, so I guess if the purpose was to "make a prestige class that everyone will take because it makes combat SO MUCH EASIER for a mage", then it's succeeded.
Cone of Cold cast by an Wiz 5/WoHS 1/War Mage 5 does 71.5 points of damage on average, or 99 points at Max. The average damage is well over the normal max damage an 11th level mage could do with the spell.
We all know it hurts, it does that because it's too good of an unlimited ability.
*shrug* It's overpowered, my group's come up with a way to help limit that, by making it so the extra damage can only be used a number of times per day equal to War Mage lvl + Con bonus.
I know it's supposed to be - it's a war mage for crying out loud, but as Myriddin stated, there's no real drawback, only benefits. It's particularly a good deal for fighters/wizards out there, because they most of the time get weapon focus anyways, and as fighters can allow themselves to spend a feat for the prerequisites.
If perhaps in his continuing research of raw power the wizard would lose some of his edge in other type of spells, now that would be one sensible alternative. His effective level could be lower in non-combat-spells, he could have half the chance to learn non-damage-dealing spells, have a small % spell failure with them, or maybe divination spells could be barred to him, or at least notably underpowered; anything to make a spellcaster think twice before getting this PC, because quite frankly at the moment, nothing prevents any wizard or sorcerer from taking this "small 5 levels sidestep" to improve drastically his raw damage-dealing power.
Of course the role-playing and flavor dimension comes in, and most DM (and even players) will want to limit the occurence of the PC, but the character still gains too much power too fast.
One way to go around that would be as was said before to limit the number of times the war mage can enhance the power of her spells but personnally I am going to make it a 10-levels prestige class, with around the same powers - and perhaps some other tidbits - stretched over more levels. That way, the war mage is still a force to be reckoned with, but at least it makes the character's choice have more consequences: she may not be able to get all her other classes benefits because of it. Thus, it reflects her choice to concentrate on combat abilities, to the detriment of other equally useful skills. Let her decide if it's worth the sacrifice.
Or the ability can be used for a number of times per day equal to one's Charisma modifier. Have the War Mage make a Fort Save or some such to see if he stays conscious.
I'm just throwing out ideas, there.