One thing that is critical for this to work in a story sense is that there has to be a very real risk of loss in order for the character's actions to be truly heroic. After all, if Sturm had simply been Ressurected after the battle at the High Clerist's Tower, the tenor of the campaign world as a whole would have been irrevocably affected. Truly, its hard to be heroic if you know that death is only temporary.
Having owned the 2nd Edition Dragonlance sourcebook, I remember it stating that spell effects such as Raise Dead and Ressurection simply do not work on Krynn. Nothing in the 3rd Ed book says anything about this, however. As such, the default function appears to be that all PHB divine spells, including the Raise Dead series, function normally on Krynn.
I know its easy to say "just house rule it if you don't like it", but I'm curious to see what other people think about allowing spells such as this in a Dragonlance setting. Do you think that their presence diminishes some of what makes the setting stand out from the others, or do you feel that the lack of these spells inherantly makes gaming too frustrating or difficult?
I guess this is very tricky in a gaming sense, because the DM would have to decide whether or not someone could be raised from the dead. This might make for very angry players if a 'no' verdict gets passed down. Maybe just making the spell super-expensive or needing something really exotic would do the same thing.
Miles.
Originally posted by Kalanth
I told my players that elves are a strict no, unless extreme circumstances exist. Otherwise, each character can be raised once, and only once, and that it will cost a ton of steel. Maybe 30 or 40 thousand.
Why on earth(or Krynn for that matter) would you not allow elves to be raised?
Originally posted by Miles
Sometimes, it should be okay. Didn't Riverwind get raised after falling to the black dragon? Also, Nuitari raised Dalamar, and others have been raised or ressurected in the novels themselves.
Miles.
Mina was raised by "The One God" in Dragons of a Vanished Moon.
Now, this means that you have to nerf death effects a bit, or at least raise the CR of death causing monsters. I'm not a rules guy so I don't know how it would affect the game, but I don't think that anything short of a 9th lvl spell should raise the dead in DL.
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Why on earth(or Krynn for that matter) would you not allow elves to be raised?
If i remember correctly under the old rules elves couldn't be brought back from the dead by any means. I could be wrong though.
I think those spells ruin the atmosphere and I avoid having them in place at all costs.
Originally posted by Jehosophat
If i remember correctly under the old rules elves couldn't be brought back from the dead by any means. I could be wrong though.
Way back in 2nd edition elves could not be raised with Raise Dead, they could be Resurrected just like anyone else though.
That rule was removed because it was just plain stupid.
Besides, even in 2nd edition, that rule would not fit in DL. All souls leave through the Gate of Souls, there is no special place elves go, besides the Hidden Vale every now and then.
Originally posted by Jehosophat
If i remember correctly under the old rules elves couldn't be brought back from the dead by any means. I could be wrong though.
Elves couldn't be raised from the dead with that spell in 1st edition AD&D because they didn't have souls, they had spirits. The distinction was fairly vague, but the general gist of it was that elves lived a very long time and were immortal beings because they didn't have mortal souls. Tolkien allows for those elves who die a mortal death to become reborn on the Western Isles, in an ongoing cycle of reincarnation, which may have carried over to AD&D via Gygax.
Certainly in Dragonlance, elves have souls just like any other mortal, and can be affected by the raise dead spell.
Cheers,
Cam
Those of you who pointed out that even DL novels key characters have been resurrected I applaud you in bringing up that very good point. The biggest problem I’ve had with Resurrection is how to employ it as a story tool without belittling the experience. How many Resurrections are “OK” before it gets out of hand? In the book it says that clerics of Mishakal cannot withhold “healing” to anyone who can’t afford it. Does this include Resurrections? I mean what will a Reverend Mother do if a crying elf maiden brings to her the lifeless body of her brave brother who died defending innocents from brigands. Turn her away?
I don’t like taking anything away from players but Resurrection should be a ritual performed by the highest member of each church and strictly control by the DM to be use in appropriate moments. Or a gift from the Gods inlaid in items like Goldmoon’s staff.
1) Riverwind never actually died, at least in the novels.
One of (Riverwind's) charred and blackened hands had risen from the stones, plucking horribly at the air.
"Take him to her," Raistlin said coldly. "It is not for us to choose death for this man. That is for the gods."
2) Goldmoon died, but Mishakal brought her back after Goldmoon fought Khisanth.
3) Mina died a few times in the War of Souls, and she was resurrected each time, by Takhisis.
4) Crysania was not slain by Soth. Crysania's soul was taken up by Paladine right before Soth's Power Word Kill spell took effect. It'd be similar to what happens to the unlucky shmuck that pulls a bad card from the Deck of Many Things: Body functions, but soul trapped elsewhere.
5) Dalamar and Palin both buy the farm in the War of Souls. Both are resurrected by the deities of magic.
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
6) The Kingpriest (in the Kingpriest trilogy) resurrects Cathan. This is so far the only instance I can recall where a mortal resurrects a mortal in the Dragonlance novels. Every other instance has been due to divine intervention.
As for this thread's topic, the only "resurrection"-type spell I've got a problem with is True Resurrection. Besides potentially losing some equipment, depending on how you died, there is no loss resulting from your death. No level loss, no stat loss, nothing ... other than some cash.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
It’s been so long since I’ve read Dragons of Autumn Twilight that I’ll have to take your word on it. When did Crysania face Lord Soth? Was it during the Legend Trilogy? Damn memory is not serving me well.
I'm 99% sure it was the first book of the Legends trilogy.
I think DL has a bad tendency of not giving justice to key characters when it comes to their stats and levels. Why not make Dalamar and Palin a straight 20th Level? Is not that far fetch considering how old they are and all they’ve been through.
Originally posted by RandPC
I'm 99% sure it was the first book of the Legends trilogy.
You are correct sir! :D
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I think DL has a bad tendency of not giving justice to key characters when it comes to their stats and levels. Why not make Dalamar and Palin a straight 20th Level? Is not that far fetch considering how old they are and all they’ve been through.
Can't agree with you more on that point. You'd figure the nephew of Raistlin could have amassed more than 18 levels after almost 6 decades of life. Come on!! Raistlin was half that age and he was at least 20th level (and this was back in 1st edition). Alright, granted Palin isn't some power-hungry mage bent on becoming the most powerful spellcaster the world has ever known ... still, just 18 levels?
Though I've got to admit that the Age of Mortals book did a pretty bang-up job on portraying the levels of certain heroes. Dhamon is 20th, Rig is 14th, Feril is 13th, Liam Ehrling is 21st.
Now the interesting thing about the SAGA boxed set is that it had a conversion guide where one's 2nd edition (2.0) D&D character was transmuted into a SAGA character. The formula is as follows:
Every 2.0 Character Level = 1 Quest in SAGA.
Now when 3rd edition D&D came out (3.0), it also had a 2.0 conversion guide. That formula (for single-classed characters), went as follows:
Every 2.0 Character level = 1 3.0 Character level.
Combining these formulas we end up with:
1 SAGA quest = 1 3.0 level.
Using this formula we find the following levels for certain beloved characters:
Palin: 23rd lvl
Goldmoon: 26th lvl
Laurana: 25th lvl
Porthios: 18th lvl
Tika: 25th lvl (now this one seems like a real big stretch to me ...)
Caramon: 27th lvl
but any way what lvl would raist be in 5th age being on par with gods and all... do gods even have a lvl rating
Originally posted by j0llyblackgiant
i am new to gaming but i agree that palin and dalamar should be level 20 if thats the max for mortals... they are the 2 most power socercers on krynn during the 5th age... i mean they alone could have taken on a dragon... well not an overlord but an ordinary dragon and put up a good fight even if they may lose in the end.
but any way what lvl would raist be in 5th age being on par with gods and all... do gods even have a lvl rating
There's no level limit in Dragonlance. As for Raistlin, he was never alive in the Fifth Age. When he was breathing, though, he was no doubt epic level.
Originally posted by iltharanos
Can't agree with you more on that point. You'd figure the nephew of Raistlin could have amassed more than 18 levels after almost 6 decades of life. Come on!! Raistlin was half that age and he was at least 20th level (and this was back in 1st edition). Alright, granted Palin isn't some power-hungry mage bent on becoming the most powerful spellcaster the world has ever known ... still, just 18 levels?
Though I've got to admit that the Age of Mortals book did a pretty bang-up job on portraying the levels of certain heroes. Dhamon is 20th, Rig is 14th, Feril is 13th, Liam Ehrling is 21st.
Now the interesting thing about the SAGA boxed set is that it had a conversion guide where one's 2nd edition (2.0) D&D character was transmuted into a SAGA character. The formula is as follows:
Every 2.0 Character Level = 1 Quest in SAGA.
Now when 3rd edition D&D came out (3.0), it also had a 2.0 conversion guide. That formula (for single-classed characters), went as follows:
Every 2.0 Character level = 1 3.0 Character level.
Combining these formulas we end up with:
1 SAGA quest = 1 3.0 level.
Using this formula we find the following levels for certain beloved characters:
Palin: 23rd lvl
Goldmoon: 26th lvl
Laurana: 25th lvl
Porthios: 18th lvl
Tika: 25th lvl (now this one seems like a real big stretch to me ...)
Caramon: 27th lvl
Aside from Tika those levels sound reasonable. After all they are the Heroes of the Lance. They're meant to be legendary, bigger than life! I really never understood DL authors aversion to powerful NPCs. Is not like is the levels that shadow over regular players but their legendary feats.
A lot of my friends hated Dragonlance at first because they felt it had the Luke Skywalker syndrome the Star Wars RPG is plague with. No matter what you’re Jedi character will never step out of Luke Skywalker’s shadow.
I finally convince them otherwise since the Heroes of the Lance are retired. New Generations are born, the world continues to spin, new threats arise, and over time new celebrated heroes are born (Namely player characters).
Thankfully, this rule no longer seems to stand, but its effects probably linger.
Another thing is, something I have always liked about Dragonlance is the fact that there are not hundreds of 20+ characters running around (Like another setting I know of that will remain nameless, may Elminster be sodomized by a Staff of the Magi). It makes the creatures like the Dragon Overlords almost god-like, rather than them just being monsters for high-level characters to fight.
I mean, where is the struggle when only the most powerful of villians make you stop for a second to breathe? And if there is epic sword-fodder enough running around in the world to keep 20+ characters busy, why would they not be carving out their own territories, or challenging Gellidus and Onysabylet on their own?
Either way, wouldn't it just suck to be a normal commoner in a fantasy world? The average lifespan for a commoner must be about 16 years.
Originally posted by iltharanos
There's no level limit in Dragonlance. As for Raistlin, he was never alive in the Fifth Age. When he was breathing, though, he was no doubt epic level.
Anyone who could challenge a GOD... ALONE.... would have to be epic level. They would probably have to be somewhere in the 30's. But then again, the novels were never really strict on sticking with gaming rules. They seemed to use the rules about 90% of the time, but ignore them when it got in the way of the story.
The rest of the Heroes, at least at the time of the WotL, might have been at mid-levels, maybe around 9 or 10. Remember, they were supposed to be almost normal types who had to rise to the challenge, not super-uber heroes who can bring demi-gods low with a thought. Thats where the drama lay. That they were sort of misfit types that banded together and won the day without being uber-characters is what made them both great and memorable.
In my campaigns even the almighty HoTL are only 12th level at best by the end of War, and a few peak at 16-18 by the end of Legends.
20th level plus is reserved for the most powerful people to have ever lived in any age, and one can count those as numbering less then 8.
One can say "just 18 levels" for Palin, but in my campaigns 18 levels is quite easily enough to be perhaps the most powerful person alive at any given point in time.
I'd set Palin at only level 13.
I can't speak for others, but my vision of DragonLance is most definitely a low power world.
And don’t your players get frustrated that if the most powerful wizard is 13th Level what chance of advancement do they have. I take it you give out very little XP to simulate a low level world.
I'd also have to agree that DL has always been a fairly low-powered campaign world comparatively. I attribute this both to the fact that ressurection magic is extremely rare even when it does exist, and powerful people invariably find themselves involved in epic conflicts (which, in turn, tends to reduce their life expectancy).
RandPC, which would you say are your 7 or 8 20th level Dragonlance characters, beyond Raistlin and possibly Fistandantilus?
Originally posted by Muttifoot
Anyone who could challenge a GOD... ALONE.... would have to be epic level. They would probably have to be somewhere in the 30's. But then again, the novels were never really strict on sticking with gaming rules. They seemed to use the rules about 90% of the time, but ignore them when it got in the way of the story.
The rest of the Heroes, at least at the time of the WotL, might have been at mid-levels, maybe around 9 or 10. Remember, they were supposed to be almost normal types who had to rise to the challenge, not super-uber heroes who can bring demi-gods low with a thought. Thats where the drama lay. That they were sort of misfit types that banded together and won the day without being uber-characters is what made them both great and memorable.
The official levels for the heroes during the legend trilogy, this after the war of the lance, is according to the 1st ed Dragonlance adventures campaign source book the following :
Dalamar : 13 lvl wizard
Crysania :14 lvl priest
Caramon : 12 lvl fighter
Tasselhof : 12 lvl thief.....er......handler
Tika : 10 lvl fighter
Tanis : 12 lvl fighter
Raistlin : dead/lost/god
Oh and it does not get more official then this since this game book was writen by Tracy Hickman and Magret Wise and ofcourse that Dragonalnce was writen with the 1ed rules in mind and not 3.0 :D One of the few good things of old 1st and 2nd ed D&D compared to 3e no silly stupid Epic levels and hundreds of 20 lvl chars, just nice down to earth.
Oh and a 18 lvl raistlin could easly taken out a few gods, since most minor gods only had around 400 hp and only did 2x 2d20 of damage in 1 ed. Takhisis would be a problem tough with 999hp and 4 attacks for 1-1000 HP!!!!
Originally posted by Plexor
Oh and it does not get more official then this since this game book was writen by Tracy Hickman and Magret Wise and ofcourse that Dragonalnce was writen with the 1ed rules in mind and not 3.0 :D One of the few good things of old 1st and 2nd ed D&D compared to 3e no silly stupid Epic levels and hundreds of 20 lvl chars, just nice down to earth.
Oh and a 18 lvl raistlin could easly taken out a few gods, since most minor gods only had around 400 hp and only did 2x 2d20 of damage in 1 ed. Takhisis would be a problem tough with 999hp and 4 attacks for 1-1000 HP!!!!
Keep in mind that 1st edition AD&D does not scale well against 3rd edition D&D primarily because the game itself has become much more broadly consistent from 1st level upwards. In AD&D, a 20th level character was more or less a slightly more powerful 10th level character. This was especially noticeable with fighters. In 3rd edition, each level has a noticeable effect in increasing the power level of characters, so essentially a 20th level 3rd edition character could reasonably be expected to take out a 30th or 40th level AD&D character simply because the high-level AD&D character gained practically nothing after reaching "name level".
It's also ridiculous to compare 1st edition deity stats to 3rd edition, or even 1st edition characters to 1st edition deities. The scope of such characters has changed. Onyx/Khisanth is an ancient black dragon in DL1 Dragons of Despair, and in 1st edition she had 64 hit points because she only had 8 Hit Dice. Her darkness spell came from a magical ring, not from an innate magical talent. This is the kind of thing we have to remember when we're comparing the apples and oranges of previous editions.
Cheers,
Cam
And a high level spellcaster in 1ed would probaly have not much trouble keeping up in a 3.5 game :P They where even stronger at high levels then spellcasters in 3.5. Thieves on the other hand became useless after level 7 or so and fighters where sort of pernament summond monsters who protected the spellcasters in surprise situations
Originally posted by Plexor
And a high level spellcaster in 1ed would probaly have not much trouble keeping up in a 3.5 game :P They where even stronger at high levels then spellcasters in 3.5.
No, they weren't. They didn't bonus spells based on high ability scores, they didn't have metamagic feats to enhance their spells, they couldn't benefit from spell focus or prestige classes designed to enhance their spellcasting capabilities, etc.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Why on earth (or Krynn for that matter) would you not allow elves to be raised?
This is an old old thing, something that I have done for a long time, and as far back as I can remember, all the DM's and players I have every played with agree on this rule. Basically, because an elf lives for so long, and the traditions of life, death, and all that is between is considered to be so sacred to the elven people that their souls would not allow themselves to be resurected. I also insist that elves need to sleep just as much as any other race.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
If Palin is only 13th Level in your Dragonlance setting how did he cast the 9th Level spell that defeated Chaos? Unless you’re using a different timeline.
And don’t your players get frustrated that if the most powerful wizard is 13th Level what chance of advancement do they have. I take it you give out very little XP to simulate a low level world.
Well the fact that I absolutely hated the entire Chaos war, and hence have modified the time line slightly makes that a non-issue for me.
In any case characters in the novels have long been able to do things their D&D stats would indicate are impossible.
IMHO sometimes an author simply has to take artistic license in order to pen a good story.
Yes, I do cut down on XP given out but it hasn't seemed to bother my players much at all.
They advance just as they would in any other game, albeit at a slightly lower pace and tend to have a greater impact on the world at higher levels given the relative dearth of high level characters.
Due to the low power level of the world, resurrection magic is relatively limited, and this also tends to accord with the novels so a PC's death may very well be final.
I should note-Palin is most definitely NOT the most powerful wizard, my version of Dalamar would probably be Lvl 16-17.
Also, there is nothing preventing me from designing a wizard more powerful then Palin, though I've seen no need to do so as yet.
The fact that Palin was in the novels a considerable degree doesnt mean there couldnt be other wizards equally or even more powerful somewhere in Ansalon.
I've always viewed Dragonlance the setting as being just as "powerful" as other campaign worlds. However, what Dragonlance doesn't have in abundance is a ton of magic items. When you run into that 10th level Wizard in Dragonlance, chances are he won't have Bracers of Armor +6, 3 wands of fireballs, a ring of protection +4, a Cloak of Resistance +4 and a Staff of Evocation to boot. Even if this wizard had no magic items, he'd still be a powerful individual. What makes the setting just as powerful as others are the organizations and forces at work. One lone wizard isn't an obstacle, but what about the Wizard that's a member of the Knights of the Thorn, or the Wizards of High Sorcery, or is an officer in the Red Dragonarmy, or even a renegade under the command of Galan Dracos.
Is Dragonlance low-powered compared to other campaigns? Depends on your definition of low-powered. If low-powered = not a lot of magic items, then yes, Dragonlance is a low-powered setting. If low-powered = not a lot of powerful beings or organizations, then by no means is Dragonlance a low-powered setting.
Some people here like to think of Dragonlance as being ideal at mid-levels (~10th level). I like to think of Dragonlance as being ideal at any level, whether low, middle, high, or even epic. At no other time in the history of the setting is Dragonlance more playable at any level of play.
Want low-level? Send the PCs against the goblins in northern Qualinesti.
Want mid-level? Send the PCs against KoT/N in northern Solamnia.
Want high-level? Send the PCs against the minotaur occupation forces in Silvanesti, or the Ogre Titans of Blode.
Want epic-level? Send the PCs against the dragon overlords and their draconian, dragonspawn, and lesser dragon minions.
Want super-epic-level? Send the PCs to Malys' homeworld.
The designers, I think, realize that to limit Dragonlance to just one level of play would be hurtful to the setting. That's likely at least one of the reasons Dragonlance is now ideal for any level of play.
New condition: Swoon
When a character reaches -10 hp, instead of dying, the character might become swoon. The character is beyond normal healing, including magical healing, of any sort. During this time, the character must be tended to so that they are kept alive - they are literally on the brink of death. With proper care, the character may survive for up to two weeks, but they have suffered mortal wounds and the connection with their soul is fading and can only be mended with powerful magic such as Raise Dead and Ressurection spells. This rule is included to allow Raise Dead magic without characters continuously traveling into and out of the River of Souls.
Swoon may be a poor name for this condition, but you get the idea.
Iltharanos, I couldn’t agree more with your assessment. You’ve managed to put into coherent words what I’ve been vainly trying to get across in this thread. Thank You.
As for Dragonlance being low with magic items, I’ve figure out why that is so. All the damn dragons and their treasure hording ways.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
As for Dragonlance being low with magic items, I’ve figure out why that is so. All the damn dragons and their treasure hording ways.
Thank you so very much! At last!!! I have a rational, sensible reason to answer my players as to why they have so few magical items!!
