Over at the DL mailing list they are having some interesting posts on the subjects of KOS. I have something Id like to contribute, so I am cross-posting my message here also for additional commentary.
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I do have some questions I’d like to hear your (or any one else’s) views on. My own DL campaign is set just before the WOTL (year 346 AC), so any information near that timeframe would be of great help. If anyone would like to add more questions, rephrase existing ones, or add new subtopics feel free to do so!
I ask the questions below not because I am unimaginative and cannot create my own answers, but because I would like to read what other peoples ideas are. I have answered some of these questions for my own game, but there are some others I have yet to answer. Also, I don’t expect any “official” answers, but I am interested in other viewpoints.
Regards,
George
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Questions about KOS (WOTL era) v2
-Training:
1- What kind of training do future nights undergo under the following conditions:
a) Brought up since an early age to join the Knights.
b) An experienced warrior who wants to join the Knights.
c) Would the length, type and quality of training be the same or different under the above conditions?
Also, what kinds of military, religious, social and scholarly knowledge does a Knight learn by the time he finishes training?
2- Where do Knights conduct their training?
3- How long does it take to train a Knight?
4- What kind of instructors do the Knights have, do they all have to be Knights or can there be non- Knights instructors?
-Demographics:
1) How many Knights where their during the various the mayor AC eras, and what ages groups did they fall into? (WOTL, DOSF, WOTS)?
2) Where do knights recruit new members?
3) What is the youngest and oldest age a person can join the Order?
4) What was the ration of male to female knights?
5) What percentage of the Knights where not human?
-Gender:
1- It is stated in the DLCS that women can be Knights.
a) How common are women in the Knighthood?
b) Are there any special considerations in training, skills, rank advancement or espirit de corps if a women is present?
c) How are women viewed by the Knighthood: liability, burden, asset, benefit….?
d) What rules or programs do they Knights have in place to deal with sexual harassment, abuse, or **** of one of their female knights?
-Sexuality/Relationships:
1- What do the Knights teach about sexuality to its members?
2- Do the Knights have to be celibate or chaste?
3- Can Knights of different genders engage in consensual sex?
4- Do the Knights have any rules about relationships between Knights of different orders or Ranks?
5- What is the Knighthoods view (if any) on same sex relationships?
6- What is the Knighthoods view on marriage?
7- What happens to a Knight (and his duties) if he gets married and has offspring?
-Economics:
1) Where do the Knights derive income for their upkeep and expansion?
2) Do the Knights have lands that they are not using that can be sold or leased?
3) What is the Knighthoods view on its members engaging in commercial or mercantile pursuits?
4) Who keeps tracks of the Knighthoods expenses?
5) Do the Knights operate any types of banks or lending institutions?
6) Do the Knights have any types of magical items in their vaults or armories that they can sell to the WOHS or on the open market?
7) What is the financial status of the Knights prior to the WOTL?
8) Do the Knights produce any goods or services they can sell or trade?
-Magic:
1) What is the view of the Knights with regards to Arcane and Divine Magic users?
2) Are Knights allowed to use arcane magic?
3) Do Knights make use of white or red robes wizards as magical support when they go to war?
4) Is there anything in the Measure that prohibits a knight from learning arcane magic, or that prohibits the Knights from establishing a special order of fighter/mages?
5) What do the Knights do with magical items they find, buy, capture or otherwise acquire that is not of use to them?
6) Do the Knights make use of any type of magical items on a regular basis?
-Fortifications/Defenses:
1) What, where, and what types of the bases/strongholds do the Knights posses?
2) Do they Knights incorporate any magical defenses in their bases?
3) In what states/conditions are their bases prior to the WOTL?
4) Do the Knights have the ability, resources, and means to create new bases, rebuild or repair current ones, or to strengthen current bases?
5) Considering the Knights fought Dragons in the past, and the there are many magical ways and living creatures that can fly, what kind of anti-air defenses do Knights incorporate into bases defenses?
6) Do they Knights have any civilians, mercenaries or non-humans in their bases?
7) Do the Knights produce their own armors, weapons, and siege equipment at their bases?
8) Are their any Knightly bases in the hands of their enemies that can be reclaimed?
- Society:
1) How are the Knights views by:
a) The people of Solamnia?
b) The people of Solamnia’ s allies?
c) The people of Solamnia’ s enemies?
2) What does the Measure have to say in general as to how a knight should deal with the common folk?
3) The Knights have a bad reputation among many people, is there anything the Knights could have done during this era to reverse those negative viewpoints?
4) Which are the nobles families traditionally allied to the Knights?
5) What kind of social or political power/influence do the knights have in Solamnia and abroad?
6) What role, if any, do they Knights have in the politics or government of Solamnia?
-Navy:
1) Do the Knights have a naval force?
2) If no:
a) Why not?
b) Where do the Knights book passage to move over waterways?
c) Do they Knights make use of waterborne travel to move around?
3) If yes:
a) Where do the Knights build or buy their ships?
b) Do the Knights train for aquatic or amphibious combat?
c) Is there anything in the Measure that prohibits the Knights from creating a
Naval force or training US Marine like units?
-Military Training:
1) What weapons do the Knights train with?
2) What are the traditional weapons Knights prefer?
3) What is “honorable combat” to a knight?
4) Do the Knights train in unconventional warfare (ambushes, guerilla warfare, psychological ops)?
5) I get the impression from reading various references sources that the Knights are formidable highly trained warriors, is there a way to represent this in game terms as some kind of bonus?
-Measure:
1) What was the Measure like (in general) before it was reformed after the WOTS?
2) What changes where made to the Measure when it was reformed?
3) Who determines what belongs in the Measure, and who makes any interpretations of it?
4) Is there anything in the Measure that states than only humans can be KOS?
5) In the WOTL, I get the impression that the Knights had stuck to the “letter” of the Measure and not its “spirit”. What would be some good examples of this attitude?
-Feats:
1) What feats would be appropriate for a Knight to learn during his training?
2) Would you, as a GM, consider giving your Knights bonus combat feats to represent the things they could have possibly learned in their intense, demanding, and long training period?
-Skills:
1) What skills do you think it is reasonable that a knight could have learned during his training period?
-Special Forces:
1) Do they Knights have anything like a “special forces” units in their Order?
2) What happened to the Dragon Riders (instructors, teachings, writings and facilities) after the Dragons left Ansalon (prior to returning in the WOTL), and why did the Knights not substitute the missing dragons for another flying creature?
For some interesting answers to my post, check out the DL mailing list for the week of October 2003, week 1.
George
They were pretty disorganized and held little power, as Baron said.
Take a standard unit of troops. The CO would possibly be a true knight, or more than likely just a fighter. The rest of the men would likely be low level warriors, or maybe even commoners with a shortspear. Crack units would likely have been led by a true KOS, ie a Level 4 fighter/X Knight of Crown (maybe some Noble in there, too) and the rest would likely be a mix of real fighters and warriors. Maybe a really low level Knight would be the Corporal, if you will.
Since there are no divine powers, it gets a little dicey with Sword and Rose. In the books, you hardly see a Sword Knight. So, they would pretty much be nonexistant. Treat them like an armed medic. Lots of ranks in treat injury and maybe alchemy and survival or something.
Rose would also have to remove the cleric abilities. But, make them have a similar type of medic type background, and have them only have the minimum levels needed to go Rose. The rest of their stuff seems to go fine.
Basically, treat Knights, in real world terms, as NCOs and Officers, but in a lesser ratio, I think. THink of Colonel/Captain up as Rose, a few Lt. Colonel/Commanders and Sword (but in a much smaller %) and the rest of the officers as Crown, with 2nd Lt./Ensign being really low level Crown, or even just straight core classes, and REALLY high NCOs Staff Sgts/CPOs or so and up as Crown, or just high fighter.
The grunts would be commoner/warrior/ or MAYBE EXTREMELY low level fighter.
As for the Navy, it doesn't seem that they really have one, since they are, at the time you are talking about, spread thin, and largely in the Vingaard and HCT area of inland Solomnia. Certainly the Chief of the Harbor Guard and select others in Kalaman and Palanthus would have some Knight, most likely some Rose, in them. The actual sailors would be whatever mix that seems right to you.
For real knights, the standard longsword, lance, spear, pick, warhammer, flail and mace are usual weapons, I would think. Feat selection would depend on the individual knight, and their duties. The small unit commander, as a Crown, would likely focus on combat feats, like Weapon Focus, Specialization (if a fighter), and others, depending on his stats (power attack, expertise...). Swords would take less combat types, but may have a few combat ones held over from their warrior days (in your timeframe, there are no clerics and all). Rose would have some of both, but, since most of their abilities are the support type, might have the Save boosting ones, so they can stay up and visible, and be less likely to be incapacitated. They would also be more likely to have the mounted combat feats, since they would most likely be mounted in an engagement.
Hope this helps, and keep in mind, that this is my opinion, but it has worked for me.
-Training:
1- What kind of training do future nights undergo under the following conditions:
a) Brought up since an early age to join the Knights.
Much like real world knights. A young knight is typically trained from a very early age - First as a page, then as a squire, and eventually to become a knight. They're taught everything about how to behave and fight as a knight. It's a noble family sorta thing.
b) An experienced warrior who wants to join the Knights.
He'd have to learn etiquette, manners, religious lore (well, actually, at this stage I'm not so sure), respect, etc, etc - And he'd probably never get above Crown. They were bloody stringent back then.
c) Would the length, type and quality of training be the same or different under the above conditions?
A kid has to learn to fight. A fighter doesn't. But an adult would have more trouble learning to behave properly. So... it varies, based on the individual, but I bet an older person wouldn't take as long to train.
Also, what kinds of military, religious, social and scholarly knowledge does a Knight learn by the time he finishes training?
Military - Commanding units, fighting one-on-one. Everything. Knights are supposed to be expert combatants. Religious - Well, there aren't any gods to worship, but they'd probably teach about them, anyway. A large number of people, granted, would probably not take the lessons seriously. Social - Typical techings to the noble class. Scholarly - Well, you're kinda running out of time, at this point. Varies by the individual. Those headed for Sword probably take a greater interest in the scholarly pursuits.
2- Where do Knights conduct their training?
Home. Whether it's your family's home, or the home of another knight who's agreed to train you.
3- How long does it take to train a Knight?
Years. A typical child start from around age 6-10 and probably becomes a knight near age 20. To give you some idea. For an adult it'd still take years, but probably not more than 5. ;) As a guesstimate. 'When you're ready, you're ready'
4- What kind of instructors do the Knights have, do they all have to be Knights or can there be non- Knights instructors?
I'd say priests could teach, but there aren't any priests. A suppose if there's a well-respected non-knight trainer, he'd be allowed ot teach, but that's more of a case-by-case basis. I see the knights wanting only knights to teach future knights. Purity and all.
-Demographics:
1) How many Knights where their during the various the mayor AC eras, and what ages groups did they fall into? (WOTL, DOSF, WOTS)?
I have no bloody clue.
2) Where do knights recruit new members?
It seems to me that people would ask to become knights, rather than knights going and saying 'would you like to be all you can be?' and whatnot. It's not something you can coax someone into, really, unless they've never heard of the knighthood. You mention it, maybe the benefits of it, to a worthy person - If they want it, they want it. If they don't, they don't.
3) What is the youngest and oldest age a person can join the Order?
Youngest: Whatever is considered 'manhood' by the order. Since we're stuck in modern lines of thought, you can say 18. I'd probably go for 20, myself. There is no oldest - they had no qualms letting Tanis in, despite him being 100+. Granted, that's after the war, and an honorary title, but the Measure makes no distinction ;) If you're capable, you can join, despite being old.
4) What was the ration of male to female knights?
Many to Rare. In this day and age, there's not a whole lot of 'tolerance'. Female knights are few and far between.
5) What percentage of the Knights where not human?
0%
-Gender:
1- It is stated in the DLCS that women can be Knights.
a) How common are women in the Knighthood?
They're not.
b) Are there any special considerations in training, skills, rank advancement or espirit de corps if a women is present?
No. They have to be just as good as the men. In fact, probably better in reality, since they'd be frowned upon, discouraged, and scrutinized for every possible fault.
c) How are women viewed by the Knighthood: liability, burden, asset, benefit….?
Varies by the individual. But probably more as a liability then ought else.
d) What rules or programs do they Knights have in place to deal with sexual harassment, abuse, or **** of one of their female knights?
None. Except that, in the case of ****, a male knight would be violating other laws of the measure. See below...
-Sexuality/Relationships:
1- What do the Knights teach about sexuality to its members?
Monogamy. And only after marriage. Traditional, but that's how it is.
2- Do the Knights have to be celibate or chaste?
Until marriage.
3- Can Knights of different genders engage in consensual sex?
I'd say there's no law against it, and it breeds better knights in the end. But it might be frowned on anyway. But probably too rare to worry about, ultimately.
4- Do the Knights have any rules about relationships between Knights of different orders or Ranks?
Too rare to worry about. At this point in time, the ranks tend to be very cliquish, sticking with each other. Crowns don't get along with Roses and Swords, typically. New vs Old. Which makes, again, such a relationship too rare to be handled on a general level.
5- What is the Knighthoods view (if any) on same sex relationships?
Much like the bible, I imagine. 'It's an abomination'. It certainly does nothing to further the knighthood. Very interesting question, though.
6- What is the Knighthoods view on marriage?
They promote and encourage it. The Knighthood's a very familial organization. They're nobles, for crying out loud.
7- What happens to a Knight (and his duties) if he gets married and has offspring?
They stay much the same, though clearly time would be made for the knight to spend time with his family, protecting his own lands if they're in danger, etc. The Knighthood respects familial obligations. But when push comes to shove, an order is an order.
-Economics:
1) Where do the Knights derive income for their upkeep and expansion?
From their lands. They're lord-protectors, and pretty much all nobles. Knights are knights for a living. A certain amount of their income goes to the Knighthood's coffers, ofcourse.
2) Do the Knights have lands that they are not using that can be sold or leased?
Sure. Why not? Depending on how successful the knight in question is.
3) What is the Knighthoods view on its members engaging in commercial or mercantile pursuits?
I don't know of a knight that's had time for such pursuits. But if it doesn't keep him from his duties and the Knighthood gets a share, I don't see it being a big problem.
4) Who keeps tracks of the Knighthoods expenses?
The Council. Or someone on it. Not sure.
5) Do the Knights operate any types of banks or lending institutions?
Not on an official, widespread basis. Maybe individually, to those on their lands. The Knighthood's money, however, is the Knighthood's money.
6) Do the Knights have any types of magical items in their vaults or armories that they can sell to the WOHS or on the open market?
No. Knightly magical items are from divine magic only. Knights frown on anything magic, especially in this era. They'd sooner bury an arcane object than hand it over to the WoHS. Although, actually, that may be the only reason they'd contact the Wizards 'Hey, this is magic, we don't want it. Please take it away'. But they wouldn't sell their sentimental divinely enchanted artifacts.
7) What is the financial status of the Knights prior to the WOTL?
Disastrous.
8) Do the Knights produce any goods or services they can sell or trade?
Protection. They're a noble mafia.
-Magic:
1) What is the view of the Knights with regards to Arcane and Divine Magic users?
Divine they're cool with, though they admittedly haven't had anything knew in the divine area of things for at least 300 years, so it's sort of a non-issue. Arcane is evil and corrupt. Leave it be.
2) Are Knights allowed to use arcane magic?
Hell no.
3) Do Knights make use of white or red robes wizards as magical support when they go to war?
No. When Palin was travelling with his brothers, it was a freakish incident, and that was decades after the WoTL. Knights would only marginally tolerate the presence of a white robe, and not in a solid military operation. It would take quite a twist of events to get a knight to trust arcane magic of any sort.
4) Is there anything in the Measure that prohibits a knight from learning arcane magic, or that prohibits the Knights from establishing a special order of fighter/mages?[/quote
I'm sure there is. I don't have a specific example, but I'm sure the Measure's against it. At least in some way or another.5) What do the Knights do with magical items they find, buy, capture or otherwise acquire that is not of use to them?
Get rid of it, preferrably in a manner that prohibit anyone from ever using it again. If it's not useful to them, it must be evil. Or so their mentality bespeaks.6) Do the Knights make use of any type of magical items on a regular basis?
Weapons and armor. See the Brightblade for an example ;)-Fortifications/Defenses:
1) What, where, and what types of the bases/strongholds do the Knights posses?
In this day and age, not a lot. They're still not well-liked, so they pretty much own family-owned castles/keeps/etc. But there are numerous strongholds dotting the landscape that were formerly held by the KoS. Sancrist probably has a couple, and they're firmly in the Knighthood's clutches.2) Do they Knights incorporate any magical defenses in their bases?
Not unless they've been there since before the Cataclysm.3) In what states/conditions are their bases prior to the WOTL?
General disrepair. They can probably keep them in fair condition, but being disorganized for so long means that a stronghold is as well maintained as the particular knight in charge of it can manage.4) Do the Knights have the ability, resources, and means to create new bases, rebuild or repair current ones, or to strengthen current bases?
Currently, no.5) Considering the Knights fought Dragons in the past, and the there are many magical ways and living creatures that can fly, what kind of anti-air defenses do Knights incorporate into bases defenses?
Bow and arrow. Crossbow. Well-placed tower shields. Maybe some modified forms of ballistae, catapults, or the like (Gnomes are nearby, after all). Not a lot else available...6) Do they Knights have any civilians, mercenaries or non-humans in their bases?
Civilians are needed with any military operation to fix weapons, boots, stonework, make food, etc. So yes, definitely civilians. Mercenaries are more tricky - some mercs subside to a code of conduct, but I don't know much about DL mercs, so I can really make a general call here. And I'm sure some non-humans would be lurking around, but this would, ofcourse, be limited and under close scrutiny. Except Dwarves, who could probably be safely acknowledged as good craftsmen.7) Do the Knights produce their own armors, weapons, and siege equipment at their bases?
If they know how, why not? Saves money. I imagine, though, on a general level that they do not. Or at least, they don't make them, some folks under them might, indeed at their bases (see the above about civilians).8) Are their any Knightly bases in the hands of their enemies that can be reclaimed?
There's plenty of stuff near the ogres and Taman Busuk (sp? I can never remember that name) that could be reclaims. The Knighthood had strongholds all over Ansalon in their prime.- Society:
1) How are the Knights views by:
a) The people of Solamnia?
Some like 'em, some don't. Still plenty of mistrust, since the Knights got the shaft after the Cataclysm.b) The people of Solamnia’ s allies?
Such as who? Not a lot of people creating alliances right now, and we all know how the Whitestone Council went...c) The people of Solamnia’ s enemies?
Rather like enemies, I'd imagine.2) What does the Measure have to say in general as to how a knight should deal with the common folk?
Nice, gentlemanly, respectful, courteous, protective, helpful. That's what the Measure says, but it's not necessarily what they do.3) The Knights have a bad reputation among many people, is there anything the Knights could have done during this era to reverse those negative viewpoints?
Not a whole lot, really. Gaining trust is a war in itself, and the biggest thing the Knighthood did to gain trust was to help fight the Dragonarmies.4) Which are the nobles families traditionally allied to the Knights?
I don't know enough noble families to say.5) What kind of social or political power/influence do the knights have in Solamnia and abroad?
A decent amount in Solamnia. In certain regions, anyway. They still seem to hold some sway in Palanthas, for example. Past that? They're pretty much confined to Sancrist. The elves don't like 'em, they're hunted down in Tarsis, and it doesn't generally get much better after that.6) What role, if any, do they Knights have in the politics or government of Solamnia?
seem like sort of an advisor role, and a sort of noble class. Or a part of the noble class. They don't rule, but they certainly have influence. Though these days, it's probably more of a token status, since they're too disorganized to get much done.-Navy:
1) Do the Knights have a naval force?
I'd imagine they'd have to, given that one of their major holdings is an island.3) If yes:
a) Where do the Knights build or buy their ships?
Sancrist and Palanthas. Maybe Caergoth and Port o' Call, as well. Port cities, basically. Ergoth would probably be a good location, too.b) Do the Knights train for aquatic or amphibious combat?
Good question. No, beyond rudimentary 'fighting on a boat' and such. Good little tidbits like 'Don't wear full plate on a ship' and stuff like that. I dunno, there could be some special individuals concerned with this.c) Is there anything in the Measure that prohibits the Knights from creating a Naval force or training US Marine like units?
Nothing beyond tradition. Marine-like units, however, aren't really common for anybody in this era. It's just not a thing that's under consideration. You're in a boat, or you're on the ground, and that's the way it is. Unless you're an Ergothian mariner or a Minotaur, you probably don't get special training.-Military Training:
1) What weapons do the Knights train with?
Many weapons, possibly focusing on a particular one. I see swords as being favored, but the original 'versions' of Derek Crownguard and Aran Tallbow had them specializing in halberd and longbow respectively. So whatever. Lance is probably a must-know, too.2) What are the traditional weapons Knights prefer?
The longsword, favored of Kiri-Jolith. But probably any sword in general.3) What is “honorable combat” to a knight?
Use your judgment. Otherwise, this question takes too long to answer, and it's way too late in this questionaire for me to give much attention to. Sorry, this is a bloody marathon!4) Do the Knights train in unconventional warfare (ambushes, guerilla warfare, psychological ops)?
In general? No. I can't see an ambush being necessarily honorable, anyhow.5) I get the impression from reading various references sources that the Knights are formidable highly trained warriors, is there a way to represent this in game terms as some kind of bonus?
Check out their classes. They get some amazing perks. Plus being a level 4 Fighter in and of itself is impressive in the campaign world. Most 'troops' are level one warriors.-Measure:
1) What was the Measure like (in general) before it was reformed after the WOTS?
Traditional, noble, and rigidly adhered to.2) What changes where made to the Measure when it was reformed?
It was made less rigid, more down-to-earth and full of common sense, a lot of needless decorum was trimmed out, etc. It became what it needed to be for the new day and age.3) Who determines what belongs in the Measure, and who makes any interpretations of it?
The Council and the grandmaster.4) Is there anything in the Measure that states than only humans can be KOS?
Not to my knowledge. Maybe it says only those of human blood, which would sorta make sense, but I doubt it. That's just a tradition thing, I think.5) In the WOTL, I get the impression that the Knights had stuck to the “letter” of the Measure and not its “spirit”. What would be some good examples of this attitude?
"Listen to your superior" "Okay, troops, rush headlong into this suicidal battle because it's honorable and, supposing we win, we'll be awesome." "Hey, aren't you being a little crazy, and isn't this a really bad idea?" "Nope! Follow or be branded a rogue knight!"
In other words, Sturm and Derek Crownguard's exchange at the High Clerist's tower. Also 'The elves are firing at us! Attack them!' 'They'd have hit us if they wanted to kill us. Let's not attack. These are warning shots.' 'But they're firing at us! They're an enemy!'
And so forth.-Feats:
1) What feats would be appropriate for a Knight to learn during his training?
It's more like what wouldn't be appropriate. 'Deceitful' would be silly, 'Dirty fighting' not good. Uh, use your judgment. Knights can be a varied lot. But if you want good feats, look at the ones they're required to take. That's a good place to start.2) Would you, as a GM, consider giving your Knights bonus combat feats to represent the things they could have possibly learned in their intense, demanding, and long training period?
Only as a replacement for magical-type blessings they don't get from the normal prestige class. They're already good at what they do.-Skills:
1) What skills do you think it is reasonable that a knight could have learned during his training period?
Diplomacy, Ride, Climb, Jump, Knowledge: Religion, Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, Heal, and pretty much the skills that are considered class skills for them.-Special Forces:
1) Do they Knights have anything like a “special forces” units in their Order?
Nope. Not yet. Eventually they get Auxiliary mages and the like, but they need to form the base first, and in this day nad age - that's hard.2) What happened to the Dragon Riders (instructors, teachings, writings and facilities) after the Dragons left Ansalon (prior to returning in the WOTL), and why did the Knights not substitute the missing dragons for another flying creature?
I imagine they died in the considerable gap in time between the two periods, probably helped along by the rioting civilians and various people who were angry at the Knighthood.
What other creatures would they trains? Wyverns are evil. Elves pretty much have the monopoly on Griffons. What's left?
