During the Age of Dreams a new art/combat form was brought over to Annsalon from a distant land. This new art form of unarmed combat was a foreign principle and is still only understood by a few inhabitants.
Today there are a few scattered schools devoted to this style of combat and self enlightenment with the main Orders being devoted to Majere, Chemosh, and newly to the ultimate self style of Mystiscism.
The Devoted Fist combines the powers of the divine caster with the melee abilities of the monk.
Requirements
BAB; +6
Ability; must have the evasion class ability
Feats; stunning fists, quick thinking, improved unarmed strike
Spells: able to cast divine spells
Class features
Class Skills 4 skill points gained per level
The Devoted Fist's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Weapon and armor; the use of melee weapons is forbidden and so is the use of any armor. The use of missile weapons is allowed but no proficiencies are provided and they must ONLY be used as a secondary form of attack.
Code of conduct; a Devoted fist must remain lawful but may be either LG, LN or LE. They must also obstain from wanton slaughter.
BAB; a Devoted Fist has the BAB progression of a monk/cleric
Saves; a DF has a good reflex and will save
HP's gained per level is a d8
Spells per day; a new caster level is gained at every
Free domain; a extra deity domain is adopted upon entering this class
Monk abilities; a sacred fist gains the UA attack (including flurry, and UA damage), movement,and AC bonuses and advancement of a monk
Fists of the rose; a Devoted fist may add his wisdom to his attack . This bonus counts as a magic weapon bonus for overcoming a targets DR.
Improved Evasion; A Devoted fist gains the improved evasion ability at level 9
Mind of the Owl; a Devoted Fist may add his wisdom modifier as well as his constitution modifier for concentration checks at level 2.
Uncanny dodge; At 3rd level a DF gains the Uncanny dodgeI ability and at level 5 this improves to the improved uncanny dodge ability.
Fists of the elements; Once per day/wisdom modifier a Devoted Fist may add elemental damage to his attack. He does an extra 1d6 in the form of cold, fire or electrical damage on top of his regular damage and lasts for 3 rounds plus the wisdom modifier.
Fists of the Thorn; A DF may add his wisdom modifier to his UA damage rolls.
Inner armor; a DF may once again add his wisdom modifier as a armor bonus (this does not stack with bracers of armor or the such)
Lvl 1) monk abilities, free domain, fists of the rose
Lvl 2) Mind of the Owl, +1 caster level
Lvl 3) uncanny dodge
Lvl 4) +1 caster level
Lvl 5) improved uncanny dodge
Lvl 6) +1 caster level
Lvl 7) fists of the elements, +1 caster level
Lvl 8) fists of the thorn
Lvl 9) improved evasion, +1 caster level
Lvl 10) inner armor
it is good for a laugh though
Anything constructive or is everyone the type that says a car is broken but has ZERO knowledge of cars so they cant help to fix it?
Im not sure whats wrong with it. rahter than having a weapon buffed up all day with greater magic weapon he can use his wisdom as a bonus when using NO weapon. He gets to use UA monk ac/ damage and the such but once again he cant use a magic weapon in melee of any kind.
I have compared this PrC to a straight cleric. The cleric will be doing more damage (thanks to his buffs), will be able to cast more spells and will have better magic feats as well since any UA fighter expecting to do any damage at all in combat has to take UA feats. Crunch the numbers yourself.
Constructive help is always welcome.
Originally posted by Hammerhand
Constructive help is always welcome.
Cut the spellcaster progession bonuses to every other level, starting at 2nd level. Otherwise, the combination of monk and cleric ability is unbalanced.
Cheers,
Cam
I was unsure whether I should have the PrC provide a +1/2 or +1/level progression so ill deffinately take your suggestion under advisement.
Ill update the spell progression right now.
That's just one example of Defenders of the Faith's slop job. I mean yeah I've gotten useful things out of the book, but man, a lot of the PrCs are overpowered and a lot of the tables and text are just plain wrong. Don't believe me? Take a look at the HUGE DoF Faqs that tries to correct it.
I still think this PrC is the best for a cleric/momk. If anyone else has any ideas Im certainly open to hear them.
A cleric level/two levels of the PrC with the UA abilities that Ive listed Ithink is certainly fair. If you compare this PrC to a pure cleric of the same level I think the cleric will be the better of the two for pure melee ability by far plus will have better spell abilities and won't have to poor fetas into his UA combat style to make him a viable warrior. With all those spells being used as an all day buff the cleric is a power house for sure.
This PrC is meant to fill a group's healer role while being able to melee like a monk. Also note that a monk has alot of specialabilities. This PrC gives up most of them in exchange for a slower spell progression and a few other class abilities. Also take note that this PrC can use ZERO magical melee weapons. So the bonuses that this PrC provides will most likey be the only bonuses that this guy gets.
Anyway, Im still open to comments and suggestions on how to tweak this PrC.
If you're trying to have a combination monk/cleric, then I would suggest lifting the monk's multiclass restriction, and simply multiclass between the two. This works especially well for those in the service of Majere.
Many times in Dragon magazine (and I think in some Star Wars books), they show how to create a role by multiclassing between two classes. A prestige class is not needed in that case. You may find that this is a worthwhile option for you.
Hope that helps.
1) What is the Quick Thinking feat?
2) With the other benefits this class gets, and the fact that this is supposed to be a cleric/monk instead of a fighter/monk, I'd drop the BAB progression to equal the monk & cleric. More on this below.
3) Cleric and monk both have good Fort & Will saves, and the devoted fist seems to be a progression of both. What about trading the good Ref save for a good Will save?
4) Adding the Flurry benefits is pretty powerful when you consider the full BAB and other "goodies". A monk2 / cleric8 / DF10 gets unarmed attacks at 17/17/17/12/7/2.
5) You may want to reconsider giving both Evasion/Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge to a prestige class. Very few classes have both abilities, and they have very good reasons for doing so.
6) The 7th and 9th level caster increases should be moved to 8th and 10th level - looks like a typo.
7) Wisdom is used for too many abilities. Most players would put a lot of points into Wisdom while buying Periapts of Wisdom and Tomes of Understanding. At higher levels this gets out of hand.
Example: A human monk2 / cleric4 / DF10 starts with a 16 Wisdom, +4 for class levels, +6 for a periapt, and +2 for a tome. His 28 Wisdom gives him +9 to hit and damage (in addition to his 2d6+Str), +18 to AC, +9 to spell saves, +9 to Concentration checks, and each of his 9 uses of Fist of the Elements lasts for 12 rounds.
I'd suggest using another attribute for some of these abilities. Fist of the Elements could rely on CON or CHA. Maybe his INT helps him to land more precise blows. Etc.
What do you guys think now?
Dragonlance Devoted Fist, 3.5
During the Age of Dreams a new art/combat form was brought over to Annsalon from a distant land. This new art form of unarmed combat was a foreign principle and is still only understood by a few inhabitants.
Today there are a few scattered schools devoted to this style of combat and self enlightenment with the main Orders being devoted to Majere, Chemosh, and newly to the ultimate self style of Mysticism.
The Devoted Fist combines the powers of the divine caster with the melee abilities of the monk.
Requirements
BAB; +6
Ability; must have the evasion class ability
Feats; stunning fists, quick thinking (DLCS feat), improved unarmed strike
Spells: able to cast divine spells
Class features
Class Skills 4 skill points gained per level
The DF’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Weapon and armor; the use of melee weapons is forbidden and so is the use of any armor. The use of missile weapons is allowed but no proficiencies are provided and they must ONLY be used as a secondary form of attack.
Code of conduct; A Devoted Fist must remain lawful but may either be LG, LN or LE. They must also abstain from wanton slaughter no matter the alignment.
BAB; A Devoted Fist has the BAB progression of cleric/monk
Saves; A DF has a good reflex and will save
Spells progression; A new caster level is gained at every DF level gained. A DF also has access to the magic and greater magic fang spells for self-castings only.
Free domain; An extra domain is adopted upon entering this class
Monk abilities; A Devoted Fist gains the UA attack (including flurry, and weapon damage), movement, and AC bonuses/advancement of a monk. A DF is also capable of the Greater FoB when his combined Monk and DF BAB reaches +8.
Cobra Strike; A Devoted Fist may add his dexterity modifier to his attack roles.
Improved Evasion; A Devoted Fist gains the improved evasion ability when his monk and DF levels combine to 9.
Mind of the Owl; A Devoted Fist may add his wisdom modifier as well as his constitution modifier for concentration checks at level 2.
Blind-sight; At 3rd level a DF gains the Blind fighting feat and at level 5 this improves to the blind sight 30' ability.
Touch of the Storm; Once per day/wisdom modifier a Devoted Fist may add one type (chosen at the time of use) of elemental damage to his attacks. He does an extra 1d6 elemental damage on top of his regular damage and lasts for 3 rounds plus the wisdom modifier.
Dragon Strike; A DF may add his wisdom modifier to his UA damage rolls.
Inner armor; A Devoted Fist may apply his constitution modifier to his Ac as a armor bonus (this does not stack with bracers of armor or the such)
Lvl 1) monk abilities, free domain, Cobra Strike
Lvl 2) Mind of the Owl
Lvl 3) free blind fighting feat
Lvl 4)
Lvl 5) 30' blind sight ability
Lvl 6)
Lvl 7) Touch of the Storm
Lvl 8) Dragon Strike
Lvl 9) improved evasion
Lvl 10) inner armor, adamantine fists
Lvl 11)
Lvl 12) Speed of the Owl (able to cast one quickened spell/day at the regular level)
Lvl 13)
Lvl 14) free martial arts feat
Lvl 15)
Lvl 16) Whirlwind of Rage
Lvl 17)
Lvl 18) free martial arts feat
Lvl 19)
Lvl 20) inner armor +50% higher
but just look at uncanny dodge/improved, the rogue gets it at 8 lvl, and he is a rogue . . . the person meant to have it in the first place! (one thing that tics me off about 3.5 but that is another story). and of the base classes you are going on, fighter cleric monk, none of them get it. maybe you should consider omiting it
A monk is usually thought of as having a very acute almost sixth sense about the area around him. Then again I could always use the blind fighting then blind sight ability instead of the uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge skill route.
What do you think about blind sight instead. I think I do like this option more so I changed it,hehe.
I also changed my fists of the rose abilit (wisdom based atatck bonus) to Strike of the cobra (a dexterity attack bonus).
i have long wondered why it is not dex to hit in all cases . . .
I think that weapon finesse could be a free at level one. Create a weapon power feat (for strength bonus to hit) and let players choose which feat they want to get free at level one. This lets people choose whether they are a slide the blade in through a gap type of fighter or a make the gap ourself by brute force type of guy,hehe.
Oh, I do think the PrC is balanced now so thats all good since Ill be playing it in another week.
Im pretty happy with this class. Especially with those groups where no one wants to be a cleric (like our group). So this way you can still kind of play a monk while still helping the group out with divine spells. Good for the wole group I think,hehe.
Now if a group had a cleric charachter i don't think id use this PrC. A straight Monk or OA monk PrC would be better combat wise but for a clericless group this PrC wouldrock, me thinks anyway.
Fists of the Thorn should be rephrased to say "May use their Wisdom Modifier for damage INSTEAD of their Strength Modifier" Otherwise this is messed up also.
Be aware that a Pure Cleric/Mystic CAN'T take this PrC through to level 10 because Stunning Fist requires BAB of +8. Which Clerics/Mystics don't get until level 12. So the BAB should be raised (I realize that Monks exist in Dragonlance, but allowing this PrC to be multiclassed with a Monk is messed up because Monk 2 gives 3 of the 4 required special abilities/feats, and 2 of those three are the hardest to get (Evasion and Stunning Fist)
However the alignment restriction should either remove Lawful Evil or the avoid wanton slaughter"
Recap:
[*]BAB required raised to at least 6+, I recommend 8+
[*]Fists of the Thorn changed to Use Wisdom Modifier instead of Strength Modifier for damage (at player's option)
The reason that the wisdom modifier is granted is for a couple of reasons, monks have a VERY low BAB for a melee fighter, DF arent using the magic weapons like other classes so they get a bonus here.
The BAB is what it is so that a lvl 6 charachter can take this PrC if they wish. This class was also meant to be mixed with the monk class.
The inner armor is messed up? The DF's dont wear ANY armor and it doesnt work with bracers of armor so I dont really see your concern about this ability.
I don't feel the points that you have mentioned warrent a change, in my eyes anyway.
Originally posted by Hammerhand
LE doesnt have to havre zero reguard for life. A dude can be LE but still not feel the need to kill people without cause. They can kill just not without a reguard for what they are doing.
The reason that the wisdom modifier is granted is for a couple of reasons, monks have a VERY low BAB for a melee fighter, DF arent using the magic weapons like other classes so they get a bonus here.
The BAB is what it is so that a lvl 6 charachter can take this PrC if they wish. This class was also meant to be mixed with the monk class.
The inner armor is messed up? The DF's dont wear ANY armor and it doesnt work with bracers of armor so I dont really see your concern about this ability.
I don't feel the points that you have mentioned warrent a change, in my eyes anyway.
The only reason your class is still broken is because you REALLY don't want to see it balanced.
If you all Monks in your dragonlance game just make them Multiclass as monks! Maybe allow them to freely multiclass between them, but only them.
Or just port the class you based this on to Dragonlance and just rename the special abilities.
Either way, this isn't the PrC board, so repost this there.
Since this was for a DL game I thought I would post this on these boards.
I do REALLY want this PrC to be balanced. Is this PrC any more broken than the Knight of the Rose? I think not. Just because I didnt agree with you on your post doesn't mean that I don't REALLY want it to be balalanced. I see that since I didnt agree with you , you then say to take this PrC info to another board.
Many PrC's grant very good abilities and this is just another one. I am trying to balance this PrC so if anyone does have any other constructive suggestions plz post them, just don't get cranky if I don't agree with you.
Originally posted by Hammerhand
Actually when you multi class a monk you make them totally useless with the lowered ua damage and armor class. This PrC allows you to still increase your UA fighting skills while still adding other things.
Since this was for a DL game I thought I would post this on these boards.
I do REALLY want this PrC to be balanced. Is this PrC any more broken than the Knight of the Rose? I think not. Just because I didnt agree with you on your post doesn't mean that I don't REALLY want it to be balalanced. I see that since I didnt agree with you , you then say to take this PrC info to another board.
Many PrC's grant very good abilities and this is just another one. I am trying to balance this PrC so if anyone does have any other constructive suggestions plz post them, just don't get cranky if I don't agree with you.
Knight of the Rose requires a lot more effort to get in then your broken class, so you have nothing to base your opinion on.
The FASTEST way to get into Knight of the Rose is:
-Ranger 4/Fighter 1/Crown 1/Sword 3/Rose 1
Which will get you there with Rose Knight at clvl 10, but you are boosting a Ranger caster, which is probably not what a player was hoping for.
--That is Ranger 2/Fighter 1 to get Crown 1, then 2 more Ranger to get 1st level Divine spells.
The next fastest ways are:
-Cleric or Mystic 1/Fighter 3/Crown 3/Sword 3/Rose 1
-Cleric 4/Fighter 3/Crown 3/Sword 3/Rose 1
-Ranger 4/Crown 3/Sword 3/Rose 1
All of these have Knight of the Rose as the 11th character level.
Yours is possible to get into much faster:
Monk 2/Cleric 4 works
Cleric 2/Monk 4 works
Cleric 1/Monk 6 works
The only way to get into it without Monk is:
Cleric 4/Rogue 4/Fighter 2 to get that BAB of 8+ to take Stunning Fist.
Or: Cleric 2/Rogue 2/Fighter 6 or whatever.
Knight of the Rose also requires the following feats: Honor-Bound, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency (any one), Endurance, Diehard, Mounted Combat, and Leadership.
That is 5 feats for a Cleric to take IF they take the War Domain. Or 6 if they don't.
That is 7 feats for a Mystic
And a straight Fighter can't do it at all.
So no, you are wrong, and your comparison is ungrounded.
Once again if anyone has anything CONSTRUCTIVE I'm more than happy to listen and discuss.
yes we have been through the "lets all put down Hammerhand" stage already!
you know hammer he does have a point, you class is extremely easy to get, especially for a monk, maybe you should think about raising the bar a bit huh?
good luck with that!
Originally posted by Hammerhand
Someone has too much time on their hands. Thanks for your input and I wish you my best.
Once again if anyone has anything CONSTRUCTIVE I'm more than happy to listen and discuss.
Hammerhand, you won't find constructive critisim until you are able to receive it. You are more interested in slandering people and putting off their advice than fixing your class.
THAT is why you won't be able to balance it.
Also note, your BAB is set too high because a Cleric 4/Monk 2/Devoted Fist 10/Cleric 5-8 would have a +17 and a Flurry of +17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2 which is just messed up.
I think you should look at the Diamond Warrior from the Mind's Eye, it is a psionic PrC for Psychic Warriors to become Psionic Monks. I think you could learn something from it.
It grants a BAB of 3/4 HD and an unarmed fighting bonus that is +1 at level 1, +2 at level 5 and +3 at level 9. The way it worked was when using a weapon you use your total bab, when you are fighting unarmed you also apply your UFB as if it were part of your BAB. This was back before 3.5 when you had to choose between your BAB and your Unarmed Attack Bonus and the stacking rules were confusing (the 3.5 rules are easily abusable and should be rephrased to say that you only get 2 iterative attacks after the first level, so it would stop at +x/+x/+x/+x-5/+x-10 even if you could still subtract 15 and have a postive number).
I suggest changing the BAB to follow the example of the Diamond Warrior.
Obviously your guy would have fewer +1 level of spells per day than the Diamond Warrior (Psychic Warriors are half casters after all and Clerics aren't).
I don't think this class should actually require Monk levels and that the abilities shouldn't stack for calculating bonuses (Diamond Warrior grants them faster though).
Actually it is unfortunate Psionics isn't in Dragonlance because it is my opinion that Psionics is more monk like (meditation and the power of the mind) than a Divine or Arcane caster.
Sorry about any crankiness Joseph.
Anything else boys?
but no now i think it is definately good;)
Dragonlance Devoted Fist, 3.5
During the Age of Dreams a new art/combat form was brought over to Annsalon from a distant land. This new art form of unarmed combat was a foreign principle and is still only understood by a few inhabitants.
Today there are a few scattered schools devoted to this style of combat and self enlightenment with the main Orders being devoted to Majere, Chemosh, and newly to the ultimate self style of Mysticism.
The Devoted Fist combines the powers of the divine caster with the melee abilities of the monk.
Requirements
BAB; +6
Ability; must have the evasion class ability
Feats; stunning fists, quick thinking (DLCS feat), improved unarmed strike
Skills; concentration 5, religion 5, tumble 5
Spells: able to cast divine spells
Class features
Class Skills 4 skill points gained per level
The DF’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Weapon and armor; the use of melee weapons is forbidden and so is the use of any armor. The use of missile weapons is allowed but no proficiencies are provided and they must ONLY be used as a secondary form of attack.
Code of conduct; A Devoted Fist must remain lawful but may either be LG, LN or LE. They must also abstain from wanton slaughter no matter the alignment.
BAB; A Devoted Fist has the BAB progression of cleric/monk
Saves; A DF has a good reflex and will save
Spells progression; A new caster level is gained at every DF level gained. A DF also has access to the magic and greater magic fang spells for self-castings only.
Free domain; An extra domain is adopted upon entering this class
Monk abilities; A Devoted Fist gains the UA attack (including flurry, and weapon damage), movement, and AC bonuses/advancement of a monk. A DF is also capable of the Greater FoB when his combined Monk and DF BAB reaches +8.
Cobra Strike; A Devoted Fist may add his wisdom modifier as a attack bonus.
Improved Evasion; A Devoted Fist gains the improved evasion ability when his monk and DF levels combine to 9.
Mind of the Owl; A Devoted Fist may add his wisdom modifier as well as his constitution modifier for concentration checks at level 2.
Bat's senses; At 3rd level a DF gains the Blind fighting feat and at level 5 this improves to the blind sight 30' ability.
Touch of the Storm; Once per day/wisdom modifier a Devoted Fist may add one type (chosen at the time of use) of elemental damage to his attacks. He does an extra 1d6 elemental damage on top of his regular damage and lasts for 3 rounds plus the wisdom modifier.
Dragon Strike; Rather than using the Cobra strike attack a DF may add his wisdom modifier to his UA damage rolls.
Inner armor; A Devoted Fist may apply his constitution modifier to his Ac as a deflection bonus (this does not stack with any items that provide a deflection bonus)
Lvl 1) monk abilities, free domain, Cobra Strike
Lvl 2) Mind of the Owl
Lvl 3) free blind fighting feat
Lvl 4)
Lvl 5) Bat's senses
Lvl 6)
Lvl 7) Touch of the Storm
Lvl 8) Dragon Strike
Lvl 9) improved evasion
Lvl 10) inner armor, adamantine fists
Lvl 11)
Lvl 12) Speed of the Owl (able to cast one quickened spell/day at the regular level)
Lvl 13)
Lvl 14) free martial arts feat
Lvl 15)
Lvl 16) Whirlwind of Storms
Lvl 17)
Lvl 18) free martial arts feat
Lvl 19)
Lvl 20) inner armor +50% higher