Cone of Cold cast by an Wiz 5/WoHS 1/War Mage 5 does 71.5 points of damage on average, or 99 points at Max. The average damage is well over the normal max damage an 11th level mage could do with the spell.
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Bull's Strength is a 2nd level spell, which means Biff isn't getting it until he takes four levels of Mystic.
Whoops. Let's make that divine favor, then.
So, Biff's stats become:
Str: 28 (+9 modifier)
Attack: +26
Normal Lance Damage: 1d8 +13 (1d8 + 23 with Power Attack 10)
Total lance damage while charging is then 3d8 + 69.
Total lance damage while charging and assuming a critical hit is 5d8 + 115.
Minimum normal damage is 72. Maximum of 93.
Minimum damage with a critical hit is 120. Maximum is 155.
Originally posted by iltharanos
Whoops. Let's make that divine favor, then.
So, Biff's stats become:
Str: 28 (+9 modifier)
Attack: +26
Normal Lance Damage: 1d8 +13 (1d8 + 23 with Power Attack 10)
Total lance damage while charging is then 3d8 + 69.
Total lance damage while charging and assuming a critical hit is 5d8 + 115.
Minimum normal damage is 72. Maximum of 93.
Minimum damage with a critical hit is 120. Maximum is 155.
Not forget the fact that it is repeatable. The War Mage can only use that spell a few times. Your example could do so until his rage runs out.
Originally posted by Daedavias
Not forget the fact that it is repeatable. The War Mage can only use that spell a few times. Your example could do so until his rage runs out.
True. Also, even if Biff never raged, he'd still have:
Str: 24 (+7 modifier)
Attack: +24
Normal Lance Damage: 1d8 +11 (1d8 + 21 with Power Attack 10)
Total lance damage while charging is then 3d8 + 63.
Total lance damage while charging and assuming a critical hit is 5d8 + 105.
Minimum normal damage is 66. Maximum of 87.
Minimum damage with a critical hit is 110. Maximum is 145.
Massive damage save, anyone?
As the DM in my roleplaying group, it's nice creating NPCs. Biff here is a scary example of how you can make something overwhelmingly powerful, all with skills, feats, and classes that are perfectly legitimate. Now will Biff be making an appearance in my campaign? Probably not, unless the PCs have been very very bad.
And I doubt many lvl 11 war mages would be afraid. They should have fly memorised
War Mage McCheesy: Nice horse, too bad he doesn't have wings eh biff?
Biff: Come down here and fight like a .....Oh dear sargas that's cold. owowowoowowowowowowowowowouch.
To prove them wrong you would need to show that the things he can do are apropriate for his level.
Originally posted by Whaledawg
Yes but that analogy doesnt have any meaning. Proving that one thing is cheesy doesn't affect the cheesyness of something else. When ppl call the war mage overpowered, they aren't saying that you can't make a char to compete with him. They are saying he's overpowered.
To prove them wrong you would need to show that the things he can do are apropriate for his level.
Actually, the analogy does have meaning in that he's showing how you can achieve a similar result using rules from the Core Books, which are the rule by which all other material is judged.
Folks, I think we've come to a point to where all we're doing is beating a dead horse. Those who have voiced their opinions seem to have a general consensus that the war mage is overpowered. Fine, it's overpowered.
There have been a few suggested "fixes", so I would suggest going with one of those, or not using the class at all.
I have a very difficult time imagining any realistic character concept that would make it understandable for one to venture along such a path as Biff.
IMHO:
The War Mage- Logical option for most people.
Biff- A bizarre progression of classes that makes little sense for one to take beyond achieving pure power.
Core products are the standard by which all else is judged, but I doubt many would argue that there are most definitely elements of the core rules that are slightly broken.
Originally posted by iltharanos
Whoops. Let's make that divine favor, then.
So, Biff's stats become:
Str: 28 (+9 modifier)
Attack: +26
Normal Lance Damage: 1d8 +13 (1d8 + 23 with Power Attack 10)
Total lance damage while charging is then 3d8 + 69.
Total lance damage while charging and assuming a critical hit is 5d8 + 115.
Minimum normal damage is 72. Maximum of 93.
Minimum damage with a critical hit is 120. Maximum is 155.
That damage is done to one character. With a decently placed Cone of Cold, I catch 4 characters.
Average damage of 71.5 x 4 = 286 points of damage/2 (save) = 143 damage
Max damage of 99 x 4 = 396 damage /2 (save) = 198 damage
Congrats, your bizarre progression of class levels allows you to do more damage to one opponent than a Cone of Cold does. My Cone of Cold gets 4 people, which isn't that hard, it's an area effect spell, and it does more damage. What's the amount of area effect damage your bizarre progression character does?
*shrug* As I've said before, it's overpowered. If you change the damage ability so that it's only useable a number of times per day equal to War Mage level + Con modifier, it is a balanced, reasonable class then.
Whaledawg and RandPC: Thank you for putting the arguement into perspective, it's appreciated.
This discussion would be much more useful, IMO, if we compared the War Mage to other wizard PrCs.
Penultimate Whirling Reach of Doom copyrighted by Shugi 2003.
Originally posted by Shugi
If you want an appropriate counter, I can whip up an 11th-level character with Whirlwind Attack and the Penultimate Whirling Reach of Doom. However, it's completely beside the point. Make any character and someone else will make a counter for that character (excepting the uber-loopholes known by the Character Optimizers, like the spelldancer).
This discussion would be much more useful, IMO, if we compared the War Mage to other wizard PrCs.
Penultimate Whirling Reach of Doom copyrighted by Shugi 2003.
In 3.0 there was always Whirlcleave...
When comparing the War Mage to others, I can see quite a few that are more powerful or interesting.
Archmage -
Mastery of Elements, probably the most broken (well it isn't broken, just really powerful) ability of the class. Gee I am facing a red dragon and all I got is fireball, fireball, and scorching ray. Easiest way to counter? Turn them into Iceballs and freezing ray. Poof! No more red dragon. If you think of it like that, those three extra points of damage do diddly squat when the dragon has immunity to them.
Master of counterspelling is the ideal for your Black or Red robe, who otherwise have three schools that are impossible to counterspell.
Arcane Trickster -
Sneak attack with scorching ray or polar ray? WHY NOT? It only adds +xd6 to the damage. Impromptu sneak attack anyone?
Given time I can find lots of different PrCs that are more powerful than the War Mage.
Seems I have a cold. ;)
Originally posted by Daedavias
In 3.0 there was always Whirlcleave...
When comparing the War Mage to others, I can see quite a few that are more powerful or interesting.
Archmage -
Mastery of Elements, probably the most broken (well it isn't broken, just really powerful) ability of the class. Gee I am facing a red dragon and all I got is fireball, fireball, and scorching ray. Easiest way to counter? Turn them into Iceballs and freezing ray. Poof! No more red dragon. If you think of it like that, those three extra points of damage do diddly squat when the dragon has immunity to them.
Master of counterspelling is the ideal for your Black or Red robe, who otherwise have three schools that are impossible to counterspell.
Arcane Trickster -
Sneak attack with scorching ray or polar ray? WHY NOT? It only adds +xd6 to the damage. Impromptu sneak attack anyone?
Given time I can find lots of different PrCs that are more powerful than the War Mage.
What level can you start taking Archmage at? Oh yeah, about 13th, right? So I can be a maxed out War Mage, take another level of WoHS, and THEN start in on Archmage....sweet! Looks like my War Mage is going to be even MORE powerful/broken, good call.
You're right, the Arcane Trickster can do a lot of damage, to one, maybe 3 targets. Fireball, Cone of Cold, Meteor Swarm all do that increased damage to multiple, often times 5 or 6 opponents. What's your caster level at 11th level for the Arcane Trickster?
You're still not convincing me there are more powerful PRC's out there for the mage. I showed you, mathematically why it's overpowered and unbalanced. If you can give me a concrete counter-example then I'd be happy to continue this discussion.
As it stands, I have made what I believe is a good house rule to balance the class out. You don't have to like it, but every indication that I've received, from my players and from my analysis of the class comes out to it being overpowered.
Since we're not playing 3.0 anymore, and are going by 3.5, Whirlcleave doesn't work anymore.
The Mystic Thurge is powerful, at 11th level we're looking at a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Theurge 5, so you cast as a Cleric 8 and a Wizard 8. That's pretty good. I still say for pure damage output with no drawbacks, you can't beat the War Mage. What it comes down to is there's no reason NOT to take the class. There aren't any drawbacks, unless you count taking Eschew Materials as one, and all it offers are bonuses.
You're still not convincing me there are more powerful PRC's out there for the mage. I showed you, mathematically why it's overpowered and unbalanced. If you can give me a concrete counter-example then I'd be happy to continue this discussion.
"More powerful" is obviously subjective, but an Incantatrix, Thorn Knight, or WoHS of equal class levels could hold their own compared to a War Mage.
Since we're not playing 3.0 anymore, and are going by 3.5, Whirlcleave doesn't work anymore.
I believe Daedavias' implication was exactly that.
I still say for pure damage output with no drawbacks, you can't beat the War Mage. What it comes down to is there's no reason NOT to take the class. There aren't any drawbacks, unless you count taking Eschew Materials as one, and all it offers are bonuses.
Of course feats offer you bonuses - that's why they're not Hindrances - but any required feat is one you can't spend elsewhere. Weapon Focus is a hindrance as well, even though it "only offers you bonuses". How many wizards do you think spend a feat on Weapon Focus when they aren't arcane archers, bladesingers, or eldritch knights? It happens, but very rarely.
In the end, most wizardly PrCs are about a focus. Elemental Savant = elemental mage. Mystic Theurge = versatility. War Mage = damage. And so on, ad nauseam.
I agree with most of your points - the War Mage is (at least currently) the best damage-dealing wizard, and I completely understand where you're coming from in limiting the uses/day (something I thought of doing myself). It's just not overwhelmingly overpowered.
EDIT: Bad HTML, no cookie.
Originally posted by Shugi
In the end, most wizardly PrCs are about a focus. Elemental Savant = elemental mage. Mystic Theurge = versatility. War Mage = damage. And so on, ad nauseam.
I think this is something that is getting a bit lost in this discussion. The question was asked earlier why would a character not take the war mage PrC.
The answer is that not all wizards are in the business of kicking butt in battle. You have all sorts of mages, such as illusionists.
Also consider that wizards have to meet the prerequisites of the WoHS prestige class, Thorn Knights also have those requirements, and Legion Sorcerers have their own requirements.
War Mages shouldn't be your average run-of-the-mill mages, either. I would say that they would have to be involved in some sort of conflict, or be part of a military organization.
Now, I will admit that the war mage is very enticing, especially for the gamer who is concerned with how many bad guys they can kill.
Anyway, I think we've beaten this horse to death. Yes, the war mage could use some tweaking, and I think the house rule that Cam suggested (on the DL.com forums?) is the way to go. Perhaps, if there is an errata for Age of Mortals, we can add that in there.
Originally posted by True_Blue
I would assume most War Wizards will do Weapon Focus in Ray. Seems to be the best choice.
A WoHS would most likely do dagger or staff. Thorn Knights may do swords.
The answer is that not all wizards are in the business of kicking butt in battle. You have all sorts of mages, such as illusionists.
That's where, IMHO, roleplay requirements for prestige classes come in. If your mage character has been focused on that kind of damagery since lvl 1 and there is a good reason(he is a military advisor, his father is a king who allways wanted him to support the army in battle, etc.) no one cares if your overpowered. It's when DM's let PC's take any prestige class without roleplaying up to it that you have problems.
QUOTE]Anyway, I think we've beaten this horse to death.
A WoHS would most likely do dagger or staff. Thorn Knights may do swords.
If you really think we have beaten it to death why can't you resist getting in one last bump ;)
Also, following the quote under the War Mage PrC description in AoM, it is evident that War Mages probably have a high attrition rate. There is a good chance in any battle they are involved in, they will be facing both physical and magical dangers, and there is a good chance that in any arcane engagement they are involved in, they will be facing an equivalent foe (another War Mage, or maybe a Knight of the Thorn.)
A non-War Mage will most likely stay behind his companions, using his magic in a combat support role, while a War Mage is more likely to be in the front lines, fighting along side his companions, and endangering his hide much more. So they probably die more often.
Originally posted by Winterknight
Also, following the quote under the War Mage PrC description in AoM, it is evident that War Mages probably have a high attrition rate. There is a good chance in any battle they are involved in, they will be facing both physical and magical dangers, and there is a good chance that in any arcane engagement they are involved in, they will be facing an equivalent foe (another War Mage, or maybe a Knight of the Thorn.)
A non-War Mage will most likely stay behind his companions, using his magic in a combat support role, while a War Mage is more likely to be in the front lines, fighting along side his companions, and endangering his hide much more. So they probably die more often.
Exactly. Sure the War Mage is a powerful prestige class. Yes he can fry tons of people. Sure he can theoretically nuke two dozen people with his fireball. But eventually even the dumbest NPCs will realize that standing in a clump is a bad thing to do when there's a war mage around. Yes cone of cold can hurt 4 or 5 people. But not if those 4 or 5 people are in 4 different directions or can't be seen or have cover or whatever else you can think of.
Yes the war mage has other damaging spells, and yes there are creatures with spell resistance, immunities, spells, supernatural abilities, tactics, etc. to thwart those damaging spells.
e.g. War mage can't target enemies with magic missile, scorching ray if he can't see them. e.g. cover, concealment, etc.
The war mage can't cast spells with somatic components if he's grappled. That rules out magic missile, cone of cold, etc.
Going back to the 11th level human war mage example, yes, he's a death-dealing machine. But he's got 11d4 hit dice. That's an average of 27 hit points. Even with an 18 Constitution (not a likely event), that's only 71 hp to his name. He's also got bad fortitude (even considering the 5 levels of war mage) and reflex saves. Without even considering Biff, there are plenty of average NPCs out there that can seriously injure or even kill the 11th level war mage.
There's also the environment to consider. Just like with the example with Biff, he can't charge everywhere, so that limits his power (of course, he could always get a flying mount, but even then he can't charge everywhere). Same with the war mage. War mage and pals are at the king's palace when assassins try to stage a coup. With all the innocents about, is the war mage going to start letting loose with fireballs and cones of cold galore? What about the king and the royal family? What about damaging/destroying the palace itself?
In the end, I don't think the war mage is overpowered. Disagree if you like, but the fact remains that hit points count, and the war mage has the same weakness every other mage has, a crappy hit point total.
EDIT: As Magus_Extreme pointed out, Biff is just an example of how even a "basic" character can be made that looks overpowered. That aside, who's to say Biff's progression is any more bizarre than any other progression?
Biff takes 9 levels of fighter because ... fighter is a favored class for minotaurs and Biff is stereotypical in this sense. Training as a soldier in the minotaur army he rose through the ranks, until he lost his position in a fit of rage when one day he slew a higher-ranking officer who had the temerity to insult Biff's family, which was not of the noble caste, but had a tradition of farming and hailed from one of the outer colonies.
Biff takes a level of barbarian because ... he fought in the minotaur Great Circus (where he was condemned after slaying his superior officer), where he learned to incite himself to previously unheard feats of strength and combat, learning to throw caution to the wind to achieve the true objective: to win.
Biff takes a level of mystic because ... he's converted to the Forerunner faith of the Lady Nepherra de-Droka. The Lady Nepherra was Biff's "keeper", one who houses and feeds the condemned Great Circus gladiator, taking a portion of his gladiatorial winnings as consolation. Lady Nepherra recognized the spark of inner faith in Biff that kept him going through life despite his failure in the army and the subsequent dishonor he brought to his once-proud family.
Now Biff has been given a chance to redeem his honor by serving the Lady Nepherra and her husband Hotak's plans of military conquest for the Minotaur Empire. Biff, due to his heavy cavalry experience, will be allowed to lead an entire legion of minotaur cavalry ...
Just because a character optimizes his capacity to deal out obscene amounts of damage does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that such a character is bizarre or is due purely to min/maxing or munchkinism. Everyone here is a min/maxer, to some extent or another. If you weren't, then you'd just flat outlaw all prestige classes, along with many core feats and spells, and certain skills. You also wouldn't mind if your character started out with stats of 10 in every ability score with no hope of improvement from race or level. You would also never mind about gaining levels. Why gain levels because that's just trying to optimize your character?
Would I, as DM, allow a character like Biff into my campaign? Probably not, unless there was a good story behind such a character. Even better if such a character is unique. Everyone always imagines minotaurs as monstrous melee machines. But why not minotaur cavalrymen? or Minotaur rogues? These "broke the mold" characters are what make roleplaying fun. It's precisely the reason Elves aren't a character class anymore, along with numerous other rules changes.
Going back to the 11th level human war mage example, yes, he's a death-dealing machine. But he's got 11d4 hit dice. That's an average of 27 hit points. Even with an 18 Constitution (not a likely event), that's only 71 hp to his name. He's also got bad fortitude (even considering the 5 levels of war mage) and reflex saves. Without even considering Biff, there are plenty of average NPCs out there that can seriously injure or even kill the 11th level war mage.iltharanos: Every "counter" that you've put forward isn't aimed at explaining why the War Mage may be balanced, all you're doing is explaining things that hurt ALL mages in combat. Unless you have specific examples of how the class isn't overpowered?
The arguement if something is overpowered or not is that if there is a particular class that only has benefits, and doesn't have any significant drawbacks to taking it. The War Mage in this case, gives benefits, lots of them, at almost no cost. It's ability, increasing the amount of damage dealt, is incredibly powerful, and is useful in 95% of all campaigns. It makes a "regular" wizard obsolete because they can do everything a regular caster can, and do the damage part of it better.
Yes, it's been beat to death. There hasn't been a compelling arguement that it's *not* overpowered, it's been proven by the math that it just plain is overpowered, especially when it's compared to a wizard or sorcerer of comparable level. The errata that Cam suggested, I modified so that the extra damage is only useable a number of times per day equal to their War Mage level + Con modifier. As I posted on the DL.com forums, this made for a lot of fun, as it added strategy to the character.
Originally posted by Myrridin
Yes, it's been beat to death. There hasn't been a compelling arguement that it's *not* overpowered, it's been proven by the math that it just plain is overpowered, especially when it's compared to a wizard or sorcerer of comparable level.
Why keep arguing the point, then?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
There will be a quiz on Thursday, if anyone is interested. ;)
Why keep arguing the point, then?
I was about to ask the same thing.
Can Biff convince the Dragon Overlord Sable that he is not worthy of being made into a half-minotaur/half-cabbage?
Can the War Mage sneak into an enemy camp without alerting the pimple-faced stable boys and their loyal maltese terrior, Muffy?
Stupid questions, I know, but Biff wouldn't last ten seconds in my (old) campaign if he went around charging anying that moved. I don't hate Biff, far from it. Biff is a good example that when things are effective in one area, they lack in others.
1) war mage has pitiful progressions in everything but will saves. they don't even increase familiars or give wizard bonus feats (a reason why to stick with wizards).
2) It slots/halts progression in somehting like Legion Sorcerer or Wizard of High Sorcery. BTW, checked those prc's? they're insanely strong too.
Whoever said a PrC had to sacrifice a whole lot anyhow? the damage increase, in my opinion, is very fair, when you could go for other things like order secrets, or sphere knowledge.
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
the question is not how strong you can make other things, but why you wouldn't take war mage over other things. here's a couple ideas:
1) war mage has pitiful progressions in everything but will saves. they don't even increase familiars or give wizard bonus feats (a reason why to stick with wizards).
2) It slots/halts progression in somehting like Legion Sorcerer or Wizard of High Sorcery. BTW, checked those prc's? they're insanely strong too.
Whoever said a PrC had to sacrifice a whole lot anyhow? the damage increase, in my opinion, is very fair, when you could go for other things like order secrets, or sphere knowledge.
re 1) War mages actually get good progressions for both Will and Fortitude saves.
As for war mages as a prestige class, there's no rules reason not to take it. Now if you want to delve into roleplaying, then we've got a reason to avoid taking the prestige class. If your arcane spellcaster is a white robe abjurer that abhors violence, then taking levels of war mage would not make sense, in a roleplaying light.
Some people here think the prestige class is overpowered. Fine. If it's overpowered, then what does that mean? It's more powerful compared to ... something else. But as others besides myself have pointed out, there are plenty of class/prestige class combos out there that are just as powerful. Powerful here not being limited to pure damage, as there are situations where the capacity to deal out damage is restricted or entirely eliminated. Since these other combos are just as powerful, then by the very definition of the term, the war mage can hardly be overpowered.
As Myrridin has already realized, and as the DMG points out, if you don't like something, change it. He doesn't like the War mage as it is, so he changed it. I like it as it is, so I'm leaving it untouched.
Almost every prestige class I've seen that was 5 levels and had +1 caster level for spells was more than worth taking over getting the extra feat. Most of them usually even offer at least one feat, just you might not get a choice what it is.
Originally posted by Magus_Extreme
the question is not how strong you can make other things, but why you wouldn't take war mage over other things. here's a couple ideas:
1) war mage has pitiful progressions in everything but will saves. they don't even increase familiars or give wizard bonus feats (a reason why to stick with wizards).
2) It slots/halts progression in somehting like Legion Sorcerer or Wizard of High Sorcery. BTW, checked those prc's? they're insanely strong too.
Whoever said a PrC had to sacrifice a whole lot anyhow? the damage increase, in my opinion, is very fair, when you could go for other things like order secrets, or sphere knowledge.
Just to point out the stuff about bonus feats. At 2nd and 4th levels of the prestige class they get to choose among Empower, Maximize, Widen, and Extend (?), I can't remember the fourth feat. But yeah, in that 5 level progression, they get 2 extra metamagic feats. That's better than the 1 every five levels. Empower and Maximize are incredibly useful, and I see a lot of people take them.
It can be overpowered if it represents a better option than any other prestige class for progression. *sigh* I'm not going to convince you of that, and you haven't presented any counters to it not being overpowered. it's plus to damage ability is better than Maximize damage on average, by about 13% or so, I posted the math somewhere.
Originally posted by Myrridin
it's plus to damage ability is better than Maximize damage on average, by about 13% or so, I posted the math somewhere.
Yes, you did. In this thread and the previous one. And over on the dragonlance.com gaming boards.
By this point, the horse is undead and being beaten back with clubs as it lurches and moans sideways on its broken hooves.Cheers,
Cam
And it is also hard to get into other Prestige Classes if you take War Mage, most of the WotC "Arcane" Prestige Classes favor Wizards because of the earlier access and because of the skills. Also most of the "Arcane" classes require a lot of feats in common.
Originally posted by JosephKell
It is one of the only Sorcerer only prestige classes out there (if you look closely you'll notice that all of the Sorcerer Only classes are pretty much in the Age of Mortals book... it is like Wizards of the Coast doesn't like them... )
To clarify, the war mage can be used for both wizards and sorcerers. The wizard has the harder path, due to the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class (unless you're a renegade). A straight sorcerer is perfect for the war mage.
I like the sorcerer-specific PrCs in the Age of Mortals book myself. It's a great advantage to playing in that era. I'm especially fond of the Academy Sorcerer.
Originally posted by Faeryl Zauvirr
Can the War Mage sneak into an enemy camp without alerting the pimple-faced stable boys and their loyal maltese terrior, Muffy?
an invisibility spell might suffice !
and a sleep spell for the dog. - good night puppie !
Wizard 5/WoHS 10/War Mage 5/ArchMage 5
This overall could be a nasty combo, and yet still have its downsides. Overall, everycharacter has a week point and a strong point, and that is what really makes being a player and a DM fun. For the player, trying to cancel out the negatives through creative play, and the DM, trying to get through and legitamitly piercing through the weakpoints.
Think of trying to get past the stable boys and muffie unnoticed when all you have is fireball, lightning bolt, cone of cold, and various other attack spells.
The abilities that I like the most about the WM are actually the Arcane Aegis and the Armored Casting. Extra damage means crap when you are the only person left fighting for your side.